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Tuesday: War in Heaven — 37 Comments

  1. God has been so gracious to His people throughout. I believe if we are to be as honest and true to Him and Him alone as we can, He is ready to deliver us - He is a loving God! May God help us to trust Him more than ever.

    Amen!(47)
  2. God loves us and He want to save human kind from the power of darkness. Our duty is to obey and to give Him glory who created heaven and earth. May God help us to be fully obedience to Him.

    Amen!(25)
  3. All the Lord is asking us to do is to simple follow him, his words and trust him. If we are willing and able to give up this world for him, we will be with him in paradise.Let's continue to pray for each other, so the Father can do his works through us, until he calls us home to be in glory with him.

    Amen!(28)
  4. I have learn to stand and watch God works. Being overwhelmed causes me to literally shed tears,i feel so helpless and weaken at times, all i can utter is Jesus i know you understands, i know you will come true for me, help me to always stay faithful.
    When i realize how destructive the devil is ,all the pains and sorrows. With that great mourn of Jesus, does bring relief. There is no other name like JESUS. BRETHREN LETS US HOLD ON HE WILL SOON COME.

    Amen!(24)
    • I too feel helpless. The devil has taken over the cyber space. I struggle to spend less time on the Internet but I'm failing miserably. I am praying and it is only through God's help that we can survive. The controversy prevails. Prayer is the only way.

      Amen!(4)
  5. Praise Jehovah, He has told us that He and those on His side will be the winners in the end! No matter if it looks like Jehovah & His Remnant are losing the battle we know that He & His people win in the end, even if it is not in our lifetime on this earth, we will be part of the celebration when he comes again in glory!

    Amen!(21)
  6. Revelation 12:7-16 is often used to refer to the "first" casting out of Satan after the original, pre-Fall casting out of Satan. But it is obvious from the context that the war here is referring to Christ's victory on Calvary, NOT the first war in heaven.

    Looking closely at what Ellen White wrote commenting on the incident of the disciples triumph over the devil in John 12:31, she understood this clearly:

    "The scenes of the past and the future were presented to the mind of Jesus. He beheld Lucifer as he was first cast out from the heavenly places. He looked forward to the scenes of His own agony, when before all the worlds the character of the deceiver should be unveiled. He heard the cry, “It is finished” (John 19:30), announcing that the redemption of the lost race was forever made certain, that heaven was made eternally secure against the accusations, the deceptions, the pretensions, that Satan would instigate." {DA 490.2}

    "When the last steps of Christ’s humiliation were to be taken, when the deepest sorrow was closing about His soul, He said to His disciples, “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.” “The prince of this world is judged.” Now shall he be cast out. John 14:30; 16:11; 12:31. With prophetic eye Christ traced the scenes to take place in His last great conflict. He knew that when He should exclaim, “It is finished,” all heaven would triumph. His ear caught the distant music and the shouts of victory in the heavenly courts. He knew that the knell of Satan’s empire would then be sounded, and the name of Christ would be heralded from world to world throughout the universe." {DA 679.1}

    So it would seem that even though Satan was cast out of heaven, he got access again because he took Adam's place as earth's representative. (We see this in Job 1,2) But when Christ died on the cross Satan lost that position as our representative. He was thus "cast out" for the second time.

    Amen!(20)
  7. When we see the news and all that it is happening around us, we just have to keep in mind how the story ends. And tthey overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, uand they did not love their lives to the death.Rev. 12:11

    Amen!(13)
  8. Notwithstanding the absence from the Bible of a blow by blow description or any post fight summary review of the battle in Heaven, at a minimum there was a contest of arguments (2 Corinthians 10:5) and struggle for hearts and minds. This aspect of the war continued on earth.

    The decisive blow was landed at Calvary where the war was won (John 19:30). Since then the countdown to the end began.

    Lucifer campaigned deceptively, stirred dissatisfaction and provoked disaffection among heavenly beings who did not at first have any issue with their standing; suggesting they deserved better and he would deliver had he the authority of commander of the angels, a position assigned to the Son of God by the Father.

    Denied by the Father, Satan entered into full scale assault on Michael, the Archangel (Revelation 12:7). Blinded by pride and ambition it did not occur to the Dragon his was a losing cause. His probation was closed and his sentence set (Matthew 25:41).

    Until the execution the enemy of souls desperately attacks that which is connected to Christ, including the truth (Daniel 8:12), the commandments (Daniel 7:25), the people of God (Revelation 12:13-16) and the little flock, the remnant of the true church (Revelation 12:17) on whom his fury is unleashed in a last ditch effort to hurt Jesus (Revelation 13:17).

    Soberingly in the end he whom was cast out and cast down is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10). On the other hand the faithful overcome and express relief in song (Revelation 12:11; 15:3).

    Amen!(26)
  9. Of course we know what “war in heaven” means. It is taking place here on earth with each of us taking part, and is no different than the war in heaven. God reveals Truth and righteousness while Satan resorts to deception and tempts God's creatures to rebel against their Creator. Observe Eden and the fall. Mark the course of Israel from Egypt to Rome. The fact that Satan lives and moves freely upon this earth tells us there was no physical war being fought, not against the One who could remove His enemies with just a word.

    In these verses (Rev 12:7-16) we see the war in heaven continuing on the earth and in the lives of every free-will agent. “Choose you this day...” is how we “fight” in this war of loyalty or rebellion, trust or unbelief, and ungodliness or faithful service. Each of us becomes either a messenger (angel) of Michael or the Dragon. What is our message to others?

    Amen!(14)
    • I like what you say here Robert.

      If the Christian mode of warfare on the earth is NO DIFFERENT to the warfare which Michael led out in, then we can say with confidence that there were no "fire-fights" and no "force-fields", or anything of the kind, used in heaven.

      The Word of God certainly DENIES US the use of any physical weapons in the warfare which was transferred from heaven to this planet. (2Cor 10:3-4.) And of course there are other emotional "weapons" that we are prohibited from employing too!

      Did the principle of overcoming evil with GOOD (Rom 12:21) came into existence during the Christian dispensation? No. I believe it has ALWAYS existed in God, and when Michael led His angels in the fight, I believe He led them in the good fight, and literally overcame His enemies with good.

      [Some say I make the government of God too weak. But I do not believe that this is so.]

      When an adversary tries and tries to bait somebody, and he tries and tries to provoke him, and to get him to lash out, but constantly fails to achieve any of this; and finds himself met only with GENUINE EFFORTS to show love, the adversary will turn away in disgust, and remove himself. The final act of removing himself is often sudden.

      In Rev 12:9 it says that the Devil and his angels were "cast out". In Jude 6 it says that they "left their own habitation". (They "abandoned" (Moffatt), they "deserted" (Weymouth) their own habitation.) Obviously both are true. But we should not automatically assume that the war in heaven was conducted along the lines of earthly warfare. God's way of fighting, is certainly not man's way... God's way is so much higher than man's way, as to render it almost unrecognizable.

      Amen!(7)
      • Yes, the fight is "the good fight of faith". Even in heaven, Eden and every other world.

        When Satan (and his host) were cast out, I believe it happened at Jesus' death, when Satan was unmasked before the watching universe. At this time all sympathy toward this once-highest of angels was removed forever as he was seen to oppose the purity of the Son of God to the point of causing His unjust death at the hands of wicked men in league with his kingdom of falsehoods. He simply has no one who wants to hear him and is thus "cast out". We can cast him out today by our personal choice to follow the will of God perfectly through His sufficient grace. In this we fight the battles of the great controversy.

        After Jesus' death and resurrection, Satan realized he was defeated and his destruction sure. God waits only for the generation that glorifies Him in every way, as the prophet Isaiah foretells in Isaiah 60:1-3.

        Amen!(6)
        • Robert,
          Something to consider. It appears both the Bible and EGW attribute the casting out of Satan to a deliberate act of God (Revelation 12:9), and this before man was created, possibly when the earth was without form and void (abyss) (Genesis 1:1-2), but not necessarily.

          Satan did not voluntarily give up and leave heaven any more than he leaves the faithful on earth alone. The devil likely hung around Jesus while on earth more than anyone else probing for an opening (Hebrews 4:15).

          Quotes:

          “The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and his loyal angels, engaged in conflict with the arch rebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before.

          The loyal angels mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven. The Father consulted Jesus in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth.” (The Signs of The Times January 9, 1879 - EGW)

          “God informed Satan that to his Son alone he would reveal his secret purposes, and he required all the family in Heaven, even Satan, to yield him implicit, unquestioned obedience; but that he (Satan) had proved himself unworthy a place in Heaven. Then Satan exultingly pointed to his sympathizers, comprising nearly one half of all the angels, and exclaimed, These are with me! Will you expel these also, and make such a void in Heaven? He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in Heaven by force of might, strength against strength.” (Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 1 p. 22)

          Amen!(6)
          • Yes Hugh, the deliberate act was to remove Lucifer from his exalted position once repentance was clearly rejected by him. However, this was long before Jesus stated "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."(John 12:31) So this casting out, as revealed in Revelation 12:9, follows the birth and ascension back into heaven of the Woman's man child (Rev 12:5) and is confirmed by the words of Jesus in John 12:31, which is how I have come to see it. There is more about this in The Desire of Ages that points this out as well. It was this determined effort against the babe/child/youth/man Jesus, which ultimately ended in death, that convinced the rest of creation that Satan was a liar/murderer, while God was glorified in Christ's life and death. This was the great bruising of the serpent's head by the Seed of the woman, and all the heavenly hosts rejected Satan's sentiments from that time forward. Only earth is left to be convinced of the Truth, then Satan will be cast out from earth as well on that last day when the nations will finally understand when Satan's purposes are finally revealed, though too late for most.

            This is shown in Isaiah 14: "15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

            16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

            17[That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?

            18All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

            19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

            20Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, [and] slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned."

            Amen!(5)
  10. To a certain extent our view of the "war in heaven" has been coloured by the media/artists renditions of what they think a cosmic war should look like. I'm sure that some of that thinking has been in the minds of the directors of "Star Wars" (which I am not going to see by the way) It is important to remember that most wars have at their heart a clash of ideologies, and irrespective of whether a physical altercation took place in heaven or not, the real battle was between the minds of God and Satan.

    I have for a long time subscribed to the idea that the battle between good and evil is a much closer fought battle than we imagine. It threatened existence itself. When we understand that, some of the rest of the battle makes sense. The real evil of evil is that it affects the very fabric of the universe to the extent that we have to view God though that fabric. The plan of salvation involves restoring that fabric.

    Amen!(4)
  11. Now because the devil is right here on he will try harder to deal with us but listen he promised to be with us all the times. No matter what i speak like david to say that i wil fear no evil

    Amen!(0)
  12. Today "Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him SUPREME TORTURE." (Great Controversy p.670)

    As it is with Satan, so it would be for his people.

    Heaven's "purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to THEM; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them." (GC 543)

    Is it possible that these well known ideas could have had earlier, literal, applications? As in -- heaven's "purity, holiness, and peace would be [AND WAS] torture to them; the glory of God would be [and was] a consuming fire. They would long to flee [and did flee] from that holy place"?

    In heaven the manifestations of purity, holiness, and peace (in the face of contention and anger,) were deliberate manifestations. I have no doubt about that.

    .
    Upon the earth "...Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government." (DA p.22.)

    This is true, and has always been true, I believe, not only on the earth, but in heaven too. It is one thing to read ideas like, "God NEVER forces the will or the conscience" (GC 591), but many of us have felt that it would be utterly ruinous [to all our concepts of justice] to think that this might ALWAYS be true.

    If Christ is "holy, harmless, and undefiled" (Heb 7:26 KJV), is it possible that He always has been, and always will be "holy HARMLESS and undefiled"? Without respect of persons? I am not saying that the lake of fire will not happen. I'm not saying that sin will not bring a terrible final outcome. No man - and no angel - mocks God. No-one! And why not? Because eventually everybody reaps the consequences of their chosen course. But "God does not stand toward the sinner an executioner of the sentence against transgression." (GC 36.)

    Amen!(0)
    • Concerning the subject of God punishing; what about the flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? Korah, Dathan and Abiram and those following them closely? What about the 185,000 Assyrian soldiers?

      Also, God commanded that convicted sinners be stoned, burned, by His people. Sin brings a foreign element into God's creation and there is an action required to meet it. If your house is on fire, are you at that moment concerned about water damage, where you might have banned squirt gun fights inside the house previously?

      God is reasonable and practical as circumstances might require. If sinners self-destruct, why remove them from the tree of Life? Why create "the fountains of water" that erupted during the flood? Etc.

      Amen!(1)
      • Robert,
        I appreciate that there are many examples of God killing people. That action is certainly not "strange" in the sense that it is rare or uncommon. But I suggest that when God says that He kills somebody, caution is called for.

        Consider 1Chron 10:2-6 describing the 'mechanics' relating to the death of King Saul. In a battle with the Philistines, things go badly, and Saul asks his attendant to kill him. But when the attendant refuses, Saul "took a sword and fell on it." Anyone looking on would call it suicide. But 1Chron 10:14 says that God killed him. Contradictory? No, both are true. God claims responsibility for Saul's death, but we should always remember that it was a self-inflicted death.

        Amen!(0)
        • Yes Saul, Judas, and perhaps a few others did end their own lives, but can you say the same for all the inhabitants of the cities on the plain that were destroyed, with exception of Lot and his two daughters? How did Lot's wife perish? Was that self-inflicted as with Saul? The flood, how is that self-inflicted for those millions(billions?) of people who refused the shelter from the rain and flood? Did they cause the deluge or did God create it?

          Two considerations on "God killing people":

          1) Do you understand the "good" work a surgeon does with his blade to save a life?

          2) Where is this "killing" ever without warnings and entreaties? If a fire is sweeping it's way toward your home and you are warned and entreated to leave to spare your life and you refuse, who's fault is it when you perish in the flames? Gods, who's lightning ignited the fire or you, who had adequate warning and ability to flee the inevitable? So while God brings down the fire at the end, none will perish that did not choose to do so. Those lost in the flood had 120 years of faithful warning.

          Amen!(1)
          • Robert, with regards to the flood, I am not ashamed to say that I believe THEY caused the deluge. I believe that the tolerances in the natural system were then much finer than they are today, and that the antediluvians were doing something that literally brought the flood upon them.

            I believe the pre-flood people were much more intelligent than modern man. Their ability to retain and process knowledge was tremendous.

            The following comment was made in the late 1800's, but I have no doubt that it remains just as true in our day, as it was more than 100 years ago.

            "If men could only know how many arts have been lost to our world, they would not talk so fluently of the dark ages... More was lost in the Flood, in many ways, than men today know". (1BC 1089.2)

            The people were capable of incredible things (including genetic manipulations), and yes, they themselves destroyed the world that then was. This is my view.

            Amen!(0)
          • Stewart, what does the word of God tell us? Do you suggest God is a liar when He told Noah saying: "...behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth,..."(Gen 6:17) and also the claim of making the fountains of water (the flood) in Rev 14:7?

            Amen!(1)
        • Stewart,
          If the armorbearer or the human enemy had killed Saul would it be more acceptable to say God did it? God chooses the 'mechanics' and proceeds. Saul was actually already badly wounded and feared a torturous end it seems (1 Chronicles 10:3-4). He hastened the inevitable. He died as a result of the Lord's moving in the battle, and the passage gives the reasons (1 Chronicles 10:13-14). The context addresses any uncertainty.

          Unless there is compelling reason from the Bible itself to interpret a passage or text other than according to the obvious (plain) meaning it is dangerous to do so. Thereby any scripture may be wrested from its proper perspective, and this is one reason for the abundance of Christian denominations. It is easy to generalize the exception towards a predetermined end.

          One might also be guarded against 'caution' becoming a euphemism for doubt of the straight testimony. It is probably better to err taking the Bible as it reads than trusting the imagination to lead, even if it gets a few things right.

          The antediluvians held that God was 'harmless,' as in soft or too nice. In context what does harmless really mean?

          Amen!(2)
          • Harmless? In my view the following Scripture describes "harmless" very well :

            "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom 13:10)

            Hugh, it is possible, I think, that we could end up with the old question, "Who is my neighbor?" And, if we went on to take God as the embodiment of Love, "Who is Love's neighbor?".

            "Love worketh no ill to His neighbour" is a wonderful concept. But would we venture to say that the only "neighbors" God had in the pre-flood world were Noah and his family? And that if any other person had been robbed and beaten, God would have refused to be neighbor to that person, and would have passed them by?

            ________________

            Returning briefly to the idea about Saul and the Philistines.

            I believe Satan's character was represented in the episode where David killed Uriah "with the sword of the children of Ammon." (2Sam 12:9) To use another person to strike the blow, pull the trigger, or press the button, in order to remove an enemy, is not good, and I cannot attribute that kind of behavior to God. I am not able to accept that God used the Philistines as an agency to kill Saul.

            There is much more that might be said - much more I would like to say - but I have been cautioned about diverting, or getting side-tracked, from the lesson. I must accept and uphold the caution; but please, if you have a reply upon your heart, I would invite you to have the last word on this.

            Amen!(0)
  13. Stewart, did the antediluvians finally acquire God’s judgment and in acknowledgement of their great sin decided to execute judgment on themselves? Left to itself Sin would never destroy itself. Satan, the father of sin, is not looking forward to the “lake of fire”. Sin is not gonna be glorified at its end. It would never be said of sin, “He(Sin) came in when he wanted; did his thing; and left when he wanted, and God could do nothing about it".
    God alone would be glorified with the eradication of Sin.

    Amen!(0)
    • Keep in mind Ayuba, the word "angel" is more accurate as "messenger". Jesus is the "chief messenger" of the covenant. He is the commander of the angels (but not a created angel Himself), and the resurrection and the life. There are not two individuals with the same roles, there is one with two names. He will be given a new name as well.

      Also, study Dan 10:13, where I believe this point is made most clear. Also, all references to Michael are from Old Testament times, even in Jude where the term "chief messenger"(archangel) is used. Since His birth, His name is Jesus.

      Amen!(1)
      • Michael the Archangel is the Guardian Angel of Israel. Michael is described as " like God"; but Christ "is God, I AM".
        Michael "dared not bring accusation against the Devil"(Jude 9). "Angels who excel in strength bring no reviling accusations..."(2 Pt 2:12).
        The Lord is distinguished from the Archangel in 1 Th 4:16 "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of Archangel and with the Trumpet of God ..." Moreover Michael is ONE of the chief Princes.

        Amen!(0)
    • Yes, Michael is Christ Himself. In heaven He led the Lord's armies in the war - He was very much "Captain of the LORD'S host". When the Captain of the Lord's host (Josh 5:15) appeared outside of Jericho, it was not long before Joshua understood that that Person was God Himself. (Josh 5).

      The Captain of the Lord's host was Leader in heaven, and Leader on earth.

      Amen!(0)

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