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Sunday: The Deadly Wound — 20 Comments

  1. I have no difficulty accepting the papacy was a major political power in Europe and Asia Minor during the period from about 500 to 1800. It mixed politics with religion with reckless abandon.

    Justinian was Eastern Roman Emperor from 527 to 565. His main political aim was to reclaim the western Roman Empire and to this end, with his General Belisarius, spent a fair time battling with the Ostragoth and Vandals. He was not universally popular and nearly lost his life in an event known now as the Nika riots.

    He was responsible for creating the Corpus Julius Civilus, a collection of laws and jurisprudence that still has influence today. It is somewhat surprising for that time in its protection of women and children.

    He took part in the major theological discussions of the day. At the time, the big argument was over the nature of Christ, whether he was divine or a synthesis of human and divine nature. The first was regarded as heresy and the second as orthodox.

    Religiously he was a despot and persecuted those who did not believe in the Trinity or incarnation. He made a determined effort to wipe out paganism, persecuting those who refused to convert to Christianity. The papacy was in somewhat of a flux during his reign and he had Silverius deported and Vigilius installed instead. (This is probably the event that is referred to in Adventist literature) It was meant to unite the church but the underlying tension between the eastern and western branches of the church remained and continued until the final schism around 500 years later.

    It is worth reading some of this in the history books because we often rely heavily on what Uriah Smith and Ellen White wrote on the topic without studying it for ourselves.

    Note added later: It is also worth noting that Justinian imprisoned Silverius before having him deported. There are records of at least 5 popes being imprisoned between 500 and 1800AD. The notion that the papacy was a unified body persecuting the saints is somewhat misleading. There was a lot of infighting, intrigue and persecuting one another, mixed with greed and lust.

    (41)
    • In response to your query we know historically that the Papacy lost its power one through the protestant reformation in 1798 she became weak and could nolonger use her power to persecute and cohence men,s conscience because they had openly exposed her and the more maryturs were killed the more the word of God was spread because Rome to through the papacy had sought to silence the truths witness or testimony through her human creeds and dogmas. Men eyes were now open Spiritually. They were about to see her true character. The nailing of 90 theses or statement at the Wittenberg church door 🚪 by Martin Luther shook the foundation of the papacy power and brought her to her knees. She lost power. In culmination of the french revolution was merely end of her religio-political rule. The bible says the deadly wound was healed and the whole world wandered after the beast and worshipped the beast saying who is like unto the beast and who is able to make war against him?
      This points to the time when under apostate Protestantism the Papacy power will be revived completely and given power to cause who to worship the beast{papacy under the two horned beast) { the two horned beast like a lamb represent only one power which is the United States of America. The two horns representative of the form of government prostestantism and republicanism. Revelation 13verse 11 says the two horned beast makes the image of the beast that was wounded by the sword and lived. It makes fire come down from heaven in the sight of men by means of those powers it was given by the dragon { Satan) this power is what we call the false prophet which is apostate protestantism which will clasp hands with the Roman power and spiritualism the miracle working power. No marvel at this for Satan is transformed into an angel of light and so are his ministering spirits.

      (5)
  2. Maurice, thanks once again I'm grateful for your timely reminders to search other historical words tha can be helpful. Seeing that I'm bias in the sense that our church is the only church that bring these interesting views to the forefront, where can readers find these materials?

    (9)
    • I find that initially a perusal of the Wikipedia and Encyclopaedia Britannica sites give an overall picture. At the very least they give the names, terms and some references to use in searches for other materials. As with all searches on the internet it is best to have some idea of the credibility of the sites you are looking at. Most sites have some sort of bias. but if you know who is giving the bias and why, that can help filter your reading.

      (12)
    • A book that I found very interesting and enlightening is "Powers and Thrones: a New History of the Middle Ages" by English historian Dan Jones. It covers the time from the late Roman Empire until the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

      (5)
  3. I would like to give a bit of background to the imprisonment of the Pope in 1798. I know that this date is important to Seventh-day Adventists and I am not challenging that, However, we often simply accept that date as what we believe because it fits our prophetic interpretation and do very little actual study ourselves. Hopefully, my little summary will give you the impetus to study further and help us understand our history a little better.

    France has a long history of association with the Papacy. In 1309 Clement V moved the papal court to Avignon in southern France where it remained for 68 years and 7 popes. Pope Gregory moved the court back to Rome but this led to a period of instability known as the Great Western Schism which lasted until 1417. There were rival popes in both Rome and Avignon at this time. One of the issues was the amount of influence the French interests had over the affairs of the church.

    It was after this time that the European reformation started to build impetus with Luther challenging the papacy’s authority in Germany in 1517. Essentially the papacy was seen as grasping and self-serving and that provided the background for the protestant theology to develop. On top of that, local state leaders saw the reformation as a chance to control their own states without paying homage and taxes to the papacy.

    The French Revolution took place very late in the reformation period 1789 – 1799 and was largely driven as a reaction to the excesses of the aristocracy, the monarchy, and the church. The church and monarchy were seen as connected and the revolutionists wanted to dismantle both. Under Napoleon, they dismantled the church states in France and took away their properties.

    Napoleon wanted to conquer the world and he sent General Berthier to Italy to dismantle the papal states there, Of course, Pope Pius VI resisted and he was ultimately captured and brought to southern France where he died within a few months. There was some support for the French Revolution in Rome at the time. I think some of the church functionaries were mindful that the church had been ruled from there before.

    The aftermath of the capture of Pope Pius VI is interesting. Napoleon recognised that the church was still important to the people of France so in early the early 1800s struck a deal with the papacy and the Roman Catholic church of France. This included:
    1. Religious freedom: Catholicism was recognised as the majority religion of the people of France, and they would be allowed to worship freely.
    2. The state would recognise the church hierarchy. Bishops and clergy could be appointed by the pope, but their appointments had to be confirmed by the state.
    3. The state agreed to provide financial support for the church including the salaries of the bishops and clergy.
    4. Church property that had been confiscated would be restored.
    5. The papacy would be free from political control and could govern the church in its own right.
    The whole idea was that they would establish a peaceful relationship between the church and state. However, the deal did not run smoothly.

    This is necessarily a very brief summary of the events leading up to and after the capture of Pope Pius VI. I hope it adds a bit of understanding to our interpretation of prophecy.

    (39)
    • Should I imply from your statement that what happened in 1798 does not fit into the prophetic time-line? We grab onto it because Uriah Smith and Ellen White wrote about it?

      (4)
      • You are right when you say we grab on to it because Uriah Smith and Ellen White wrote about it. Very few of us check the details ourselves and we rely on the the work of others. It is about 150 years later and we need to check the available information for ourselves. That does not mean that 1798 is not important.

        I remember in my computer research area, one of the bigshot researchers who has been with the project made a statement in an early paper that if we developed the principles we were researching, we could reduce the cost of coding by 16%. Everybody who wrote a PHD thesis quoted this statement until somebody asked, "Has anyone tested that idea?"

        We can become very lazy and rely on the work of others. But Paul admonishes, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thess 5:21.

        As I said in my opening paragraph above, one of the aims of providing so much information about 538 and 1798 in this study was to encourage others to search out the information ourselves. After all, Sabbath School should be "the church at study" not "the church at recitation."

        (20)
        • The bible says that the wound was healed. It was healed historically on two fronts. First through the creation of the order of Jesuit in the counter reformation. Secondly it gradually healed but was not completely healed. In 1929 musolini signed the lantern treaty of annexing Vatican city back to Rome as a way of giving back power to the papacy. Following through Revelation chapter13verse11 we see that in the final drama the fallen churches of protestantism shall stretch their hands across the gulf to embrace the Roman PAPACY power.

          (3)
  4. Thank you Maurice. I appreciate that you have shared this information. I didn’t realize that the history of the Papacy went into the 1800’s. I don’t know about anyone else but, to me that doesn’t seem so long ago. I’d be curious to know what goes on behind the scenes in this modern day time period that we are unaware. Thank you for all that you do

    (10)
  5. Much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the Old Testament, are in fact more accurate than many histories.

    This is not to say that every event as reported in the historical books happened exactly as stated.

    Archaeologists do indeed find the Bible a valuable reference tool, and use it many times for relative chronologies.

    (10)
  6. I did a quick look at Wikipedia articles for Pius IX and his successors.

    So I have to ask, in what sense was the capture of Pius VI a deadly wound to the Catholics? It seems to be business as usual for his successors. And part of their legacy was establishing and strengthening the Catholic church in the US.

    (3)
  7. Whereas western church history in light of western political history is very interesting and intriguing, I want to caution to not get lost in the weeds. Again, we can excel in accumulating knowledge that is intellectually stimulating, forgetting that all events are orchestrated and governed by the intangible influence of the Spirit of God, His Purpose, and timing. Powers come and go, and any form of government designed by man will be temporary due to it being based on satisfying temporary, selfish interests.

    Are we reading history to help us believe the Word of God to be true, or do we educate ourselves to be better equipped to answer questions of no real consequence that might never be asked? Solomon, considered to be the wisest ruler and chosen to build the temple to worship Israel’s God stated: ”History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new.” - Eccl.1:9 NLT

    From the beginning, the objective of the battles between the heavenly hosts was about who would have the right to influence mankind’s heart and mind and so capture his allegiance. God's heavenly hosts fight on our behalf and it is high time that we focus on how the real enemy of the living soul manifests itself, and Who it is that moves heaven and earth to protect, save, and provide the way out.

    Yes, biblical prophecy is amazing in that it reveals the incredible length, the intricate design and timing our Creator uses to save His creature man from being taken captive by His powerful and resourceful adversary. Theirs is the battle of all battles, the war of all wars. What man observes on earth are ‘only’ the reflections of this spiritual war taking place - Eph.6:11-13. But the Holy Spirit stands ready and willing to lead us into all Truth about God’s Light of Life.

    (16)
  8. So, in what sense was the capture of Pius VI in 1798, a deadly wound to the Catholics?
    We just heard pope Silverius was also taken captive and imprisoned way back in 537 AD. And several other popes or anti-popes were also imprisoned during the 1260 years.

    Silverius was pope when Belisarius (Justinian's general) was in Italy to drive the Goths out of Rome. The Goths were Christians but of the Arian line. Silverius was accused of plotting with the Goths and deposed. In 538 Rome was "freed" from Gothic power, and Roman Imperial law, (Justinian's lawyers had gathered and formally codified Rome's laws as "Corpus Juris Civilis" (“Body of Civil Law”), was established in that city once again. Vigilius became pope, replacing the pro-Gothic pope Silverius.

    Eastern Emperor, Justinian himself, a very active persecutor of all who did not line up to what was considered Orthodoxic theology put into that law, the exalted title for the papacy as "THE HEAD OF ALL CHURCHES" who was to also accept the persecuting policy of Justinian against all "heretics".

    Justinian was embroiled with many problems in the east, thus the pope, now given authority not only over the spiritual, but also to use civic power to enforce religion was left rather on his own in the west.

    Yes, there was plenty of corruption and strife amongst the succession of popes. A few more were deposed, and replaced. But the authority of the papal chair did not change.

    What is the real issue involved with the prophetic 1260 years? The real issue is papal primacy by law!

    Papal Primacy is what the Papacy lost in 1798. She wants back what she had during those 1260 years.

    What is Papal Primacy? First Papal Primacy is not:
    Popularity
    It is not being the top civil or political leader in a country.
    It is not even whether everyone always accepts that primacy.

    Papal Primacy during the 1260 years was being recognized BY LAW, as the supreme teaching authority. It was recognizing that the papacy had the legal right to persecute and eradicate all whom she defined as heretics. Papal power resided in her stance of having the very keys over who would enjoy eternal life, or suffer the wrath of God in purgatory or hell. A faulty application of Matt. 16:19's "bind and loose" was used to give the papacy power to intimidate even powerful kings into obedience in executing their agendas.

    The issue isn't whether people liked it or not-- many didn't. The issue isn't whether the papacy suffered weak points during those years. We know there were even times when there were several "popes" fighting for the position. The issue is an entire era, covering 1260 years when papal primacy was established by law. Beginning with Justinian's code of law, and ending with Napolean's code of law.

    So what was the difference in 1798 when Pope Pius VI was taken captive and imprisoned?

    The pope's Legislative Primacy was taken away.
    Justinian's law giving the Pope primacy over all churches and the authority to persecute heretics came to an end with Napolean's code of freedom of religion in his law.

    "The Roman people are now again entered into the rights of sovereignty, declaring their independence, possessing the government of ancient Rome, constituting a Roman Republic.
    "The General-in-chief of the French army in Italy declares, in the name of the French Republic, that he acknowledges the Roman Republic independent, and that the same is under the special protection of the French army.

    "The General -in chief of the army acknowledges, in the name of the French Republic, the provisional government which has been proposed by the sovereign people.

    "In consequence, every other temporal authority emanating from the old government of the Pope, is suppressed, and it shall no more exercise any function...."
    Rome, the 15th of February, 1798; first year of Liberty, proclaimed in the Roman Forum, and ratified on the Capitol, with free voice, and subscribed to by innumerable Citizens.

    The Catholic church did not die, yes there have been more popes, but the beast died, they do NOT have the authority to force or persecute people who believe differently. The primacy with political power died.

    And it is that power that will come to life again.

    Note: Remember, history gets revised in popular historical media. That's been the norm through all ages. The counter reformation has been working hard to erase the stigma Protestantism, that has been exposing the beast for who he is. They have been very successful. Most Protestant churches have recanted their Protest.

    (36)
    • Thank you, Ulrike for that clarifying post. It’s been a good while since I have thought through the meaning of this.

      Thank you, too Maurice for the need to study for ourselves the supporting materials to establish a firm foundation for our explanations.

      (7)
    • Ulrike, Thank you so much for that explanation! The question as to why that event in 1798 was so exceptional has haunted me, but I did not pursue history for clarification. My bad.

      (3)
  9. Pius vi was most ecclesiastically influential within the period under discussion. This sounds the reason of deadly wound.

    (1)
  10. Timeline and stages must be considered in this discussion. All the actors within this timelines and involved stages are very important, but most important are those that fell at the stage of discussion of the prophecy

    (1)
  11. Hello, I am a Catholic Christian, having an ongoing discussion with a well informed and faithful SDA Christian.
    I am interested in a response to what I see as a difficulty in the day year principle:
    A year in Bible prophecy is clearly 360 days (time times half a time -Dan 7, 1260 days, 42 months-Rev 11)
    However, an actual year is 365.25 days of course. Given this fact, the “1260” that’s interpreted as years would be 1260 360-day years. Here’s the problem-1260 360 day years is approximately 1278actual years. (1260x5.25\365.25=18.11-extra years) Given that the prophetic structure of SDA relies on events in 538 and 1798, this would push the actual ending date to around 1816. It would add 33 years to the “2300” evenings and mornings interpreted as years in Daniel 8:14, pushing Jesus entering the holy of holies from 1844 to 1877.
    To sum up, if the goal is to be precise about world events fulfilling Bible prophecy, this adjustment of time seems to be an oversight by the SDA founders, which wouldn’t necessarily disprove SDA, but would certainly call into question the accuracy of interpretation for the rest of the theology.
    Thanks for your time

    (3)
    • Hello Nick,

      Welcome to our blog!

      I'm afraid I may not quite understand your question, but I will respond to what I see you saying:

      Most students of Bible prophecy have concluded that the biblical prophetic year consists of 360 "days," which are interpreted as 360 years. That kind of reckoning works out well with known and fulfilled biblical events, such as the Baylonian captivity, the birth and death of Christ. Thus the actual number of days in a solar year is irrelevant to the reckoning.

      The 1260 days, would thus be 1260 actual years. The 42 prophetic months are 1260 prophetic years, thus are also equivalent to 1260 actual years.

      I'm not sure that "the goal is to be precise about world events fulfilling Bible prophecy." It's not a matter of knowing precisely ahead of time just exactly what will happen, though a general knowledge of things to come is certainly helpful.

      We see prophecy as one way of God's assurance that He is in control when we see prophecy fulfilled. That's what Jesus said was the goal of prophecy (John 14:20}, and that's exactly how He built up the faith of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. (Luke 24:13-33)

      Perhaps that helps?

      (1)

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