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Friday: Further Thought – Rules of Engagement — 9 Comments

  1. How do you respond to those, even Christians, who deny the existence of Satan as a real, personal being? Though we cannot prove Satan's existence, what evidence can you marshal that might help someone who is so greatly deceived?

    Rather than answering this question with our usual counter argument showing superior understanding we may like to consider a more conversational approach. I have mentioned several times of a youthful encounter I had with a Christadelphian Minister who did not believe in Satan as a real personal being. His argument was very persuasive and although ultimately, he did not convince me that he was right, he gave me an insight that has given me a greater understanding of Evil and its effect. In essence he said all the references to Satan are metaphorical for self and our sinful desires. Given the nature of sin and appreciating the role of selfishness in both the cosmic war and the fall of humanity, I can understand that interpretation. Typically, the Christadelphians point to Romans 7 and other passages about the wickedness of our hearts to support their views.

    I admit that I came away from this discussion with a better awareness of where I am placed in this cosmic battle. In my natural self, Satan has a willing partner in crime – a desire to fulfil self without considering the needs of others. It is easy to externalise sin and not take responsibility for our own decisions. Their viewpoint at least focuses on where the battle matters most now – in our hearts and minds.

    I accept that the Christadelphian view of Satan is non-traditional and limited, but it is also insightful and we can learn from it. And I think that leaves the conversation open.

    (42)
    • I agree with you, Maurice. As God is real, I have to believe Satan is real. But I think sometimes we are so focused on the supernatural element of Satan that we forget he most works through the mundane, even good church people like us. He's probably happy when we focus on the dramatic as it is a distraction.

      (4)
  2. 1. Being "Satan’s lawful captive" means that sin places people under his influence, but God still has the power to redeem them (Isaiah 49:24-25). Satan’s claim is not absolute—Christ’s sacrifice breaks his hold.

    2. Satan cannot do whatever he wants because God sets limits on his actions (Job 1:12, Luke 22:31). The cosmic conflict follows divine “rules of engagement,” ensuring that free will and justice are upheld.

    3. God allows Satan limited jurisdiction to demonstrate the true consequences of sin and to vindicate His justice. This ensures that God’s final judgment against Satan is seen as fair and righteous.

    4. For those who deny Satan’s existence, the Bible presents him as a real, personal being (Ezekiel 28:12-17, Matthew 4:1-11). The presence of evil, Jesus’ interactions with Satan, and biblical consistency affirm his reality, even if we cannot prove it scientifically.

    (15)
  3. How do you respond to those, even Christians, who deny the existence of Satan as a real, personal being? Though we cannot prove Satan's existence, what evidence can you marshal that might help someone who is so greatly deceived?

    To accept God as an actual being and yet accept Satan as a metaphorical construct seems to me to be contradictory. It would play into the suggestion that God himself created evil and is therefore responsible for it's existence. It is the perfect deception projection of Satan. If Satan can get humanity to believe that he doesn't exist then mankind will more easily walk into his schemes and snares. It definitely is a psyop against mankind.

    I agree that Satan and his demons are not omnipresent nor omniscient but they have successfully sown the seeds of rebellion in the hearts of mankind. Therefore if Satan could and would suffer a "heart attack" (which is probably impossible for a being without a heart), I, myself, and humanity at large would still have to battle against those seeds of rebellion of our fallen corrupt human natures. This is why we must daily die to self and submit ourselves to God. Each new day is like a metaphor of being born again, which is certainly a necessity in this cosmic conflict we are embroiled in.

    We need to see this struggle with new eyes, be empowered by the Holy Spirit, and clothed in the full armor of God, engage and overcome not only Satan and his minions, but our fallen natures as well. This is the victory that overcomes the world (the flesh, the devil) even our faith.

    This is war! Lord teach me to fight.

    (17)
  4. Something for us to ponder: If Satan is a fallen angel and one third of the angels in heaven chose to follow him in rebellion and were no longer fit to dwell in heaven as the bible, the inspired Word of God says, then it seems that they would not want to believe in the unfallen angels or Gabriel, or Michael the arc angel or guardian angels either, the ones who keep watch over us or led the wise men to Jesus' birth and countless other instances of ministering spirits? If that is considered arguing with others about how much we know, I would rather call it a chance to question them about all angel references in scripture so they might be enlightened by the inspired Word.

    (7)
    • Let me see if I can juxtapose both ponders, Tom and Kenneth’s. I would say Satan does not even trust his angels that chose to fall with him. Example he did not trust anyone of his angels to temp Christ in the wilderness. Emphatically, God did not create evil. Evil cropped up in the heart of Lucifer another created being. Before he sinned God placed him above other angels, because even God’s government needs hiarchary(Father, Son, Holy Spirit, director of the choir, manager of Gods Angels and so on). True love has rules of engagement. I asked my wife for marriage after she knew I was in love with her. I don’t know about either of you, yet for me I wanted to get engaged in a special way, at least I thought so. I hired an instructor to refresh my private license. And then took my lady friend up in a rented Cessna 150. We climbed up over a couple of small mountains, and settled 1200 feet over Garden Valley, Oregon. While I kept us from any roll, pitch, or yaw, I said will you marry me? She immediately said yes, I knew then and there that she loved me. Not one stich of coercion, and Maurice over 40years have passed since that flight. We have a picture of Lynne and I immediately after that eventful flight. My instructor took the picture for us. I am happy to report and that love does still abound between us every day. I saw your picture of the oversized crocodile, maybe alligator. I see Australia has marital glue too.

      Yes, it is the same with us and Jesus, if we say, yes I love you, and follow through(be doers and not just hearers of His word), He knows we love Him. Christ is the Bridegroom. Ok guy’s? Yes, I believe so. Therefore let’s be the groom and get married to Christ and stay married, through trials and temptation. Christ has promised us we can find rest in Him. If you are having trouble with finding rest in Him. Sit down and read Seventh-Day Adventist hymnal song number 485, then fellowship with the One you have committed your life to. God wants without a doubt to eventually put sin in our molten earth to be temporally molten, and then-be made new, perfect, as when Adam and Eve walked the earth before they sinned, except there will not be anyone to temp us forever. The chief of rebellion, and all of sin will be gone. My uncle years ago asked me if my handle is chieffuse, I said yes, of course jokingly. Seriously, I sing humble me, humble me oh Lord, humble me to do Thy will.
      James 1:22.
      Matthew 11:28.
      Matthew 25:1-13.
      Luke 1:48.

      “Then are fulfilled the words of the prophet: “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.” [Isaiah 34:2.] “Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” [Psalm 11:6. MARGIN.] Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. [Malachi 4:1.] The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [2 Peter 3:10.] The fire of Tophet is “prepared for the king,” the chief of rebellion; the pile thereof is deep and large, and “the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.” [Isaiah 30:33.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men,—“the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” [Isaiah 34:8.] “ . Vol. 4 Spirit of Prophecy - 487.2

      “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.” [Revelation 21:1.] The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. One reminder alone remains: our Redeemer will ever bear the marks of his crucifixion. Upon his wounded head, his hands and feet, are the only traces of the cruel work that sin has wrought.. Vol. 4 Spirit of Prophecy 489.2”

      (3)
  5. Shabbat Shalom God lovers!

    I have something to ponder here: To suggest that God created evil is not biblically incorrect. Did not He create all things(Eph 3:9, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11)? Or is allowing it to be not creating it? Or perhaps, in order to create true love and thus real choice, it was impossible to exclude the possibility of evil arising. But if YHWH created everything and evil is a thing, evil must have been a part of that creation. No?

    (2)
    • I am replying to this comment rather belatedly because I just read it and believe it is relevant to this quarter's studies. (https://ssnet.org/2025-q2-allusions-images-symbols/)

      I propose that "good" and "evil" are not some thing to be created. Rather, they are states of mind. Our first parents were created with minds in harmony with the law of self-renouncing love which is the law of life in earth and heaven. They were also created with free will, which allowed for the possibility of rebellion against this law of love. Adam and Eve sinned when they chose to distrust God's instructions, thus questioning God's love. Instead, they chose to follow their own feelings and judgment. They looked to self for guidance, rather than to God.

      Eve felt that the serpent's advice was good and thus acted on her feelings rather than God's instruction. Adam knew that Eve had disobeyed, but he was afraid of losing her and resolved to share her fate. So he also acted on his feelings rather than God's instruction.

      Thus neither Adam nor Eve acted on faith, and Paul tells us that whatever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:23 Notice that Paul equates sin with an attitude or state of mind.)

      Since an attitude of not trusting God is a human choice, God did not create sin. And ever since the first rebellion was found in the mind of Lucifer, there has been a war of opposing principles or "laws of being" - with God's law of self-renouncing love being opposed by Satan's "law" of self-interest/self-dependence/self-serving.

      This quarter we are studying how this war is reflected in prophecy, with its many allusions and symbols.

      (1)

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