Monday: Elected
Read 1 Peter 1:2. What else does this tell us about those to whom Peter had been writing? What does he call them?
Whether writing to specifically Jewish or Gentile believers, Peter was sure about one thing: they were “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Pet. 1:2).
Image © Lars Justinen from GoodSalt.com
Here, though, one needs to be careful. This does not mean that God predestined some people to be saved and some to be lost, and as good fortune would have it, the ones Peter was writing to happen to be some of those chosen or elected by God for salvation, while others were chosen by God to be lost. That’s not what the Bible teaches.
Read 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16, Ezekiel 33:11. How do these verses help us to understand what Peter meant when he called these people the “elect”?
Scripture makes it clear that it was God’s plan for everyone to be saved, a plan instituted in their behalf even before the creation of the earth: “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4, NKJV). “All” are “elect” in the sense that God’s original purpose was for everyone to be saved and no one to be lost. He predestined all humanity for eternal life. This means that the plan of salvation was adequate for everyone to be included in the atonement, even if not everyone would accept what that atonement offered them.
God’s foreknowledge of the elect is simply His knowing beforehand what their free choice would be in regard to salvation. This foreknowledge in no way forced their choice any more than a mother knowing beforehand that her child will choose chocolate cake instead of green beans meant that her foreknowledge of the choice forced the child to make it.
| What kind of assurance can you get from the encouraging truth that God has chosen you to be saved? |
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God never destined anyone to fall but among even the elect,God knows who will not make to heaven.Judas was among the 12, Christ nurtured him and gave him ample time to change,yet he refused.Ezekiel 33:11 is the watch verse.
If you are among the elect (Judas obviously was NOT among the elect!), you have already been given the assurance of your eternal salvation! Otherwise, you are not part of the elect. You cannot bounce in and out of election - You either ARE, or you ARE NOT!! Read John 10:26-29.
I do believe Judas WAS among the "elect" however, he chose something else. God would or could not force him to choose the election. He refused it.
My thought.God bless
Judas was NOT of the elect. Jesus gave him authority to cast out devils, raise the dead, He even washed His feet. Jesus also pronounced, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and *you are clean*, but NOT ALL of you. For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”(Jn 13:10,11). Jesus also said that the eleven had been cleansed through His word(Jn 15:3). Being unclean, a foot-wash does nothing for him.Judas was in hearing distance of Jesus’ word; but he could not *hear* the cleansing word because he was OF THE DEVIL (Jn 8:43,44,47). He was not *of God*(of the elect). He was not one of Jesus’ lost sheep. Election, like salvation, is absolutely of the province of God alone. No one can elect or unelect him/her self.
The Lord told us why Judas was *chosen* to be among the twelve, to be a “friend” to Jesus: “I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats my bread has lifted up his heel against Me.” “While I was with them I was keeping them in Your name which You have given me, and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the *son of perdition*, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Jn 13:18; 17:12; Ps 41:9
Let me try to understand you, Kenny. Do you believe that Judas was never elected to be saved and thus was elected to be lost?
Kenny, I agree with your conclusion that, "Judas was NOT of the elect.", but perhaps along a different path to that conclusion. The word "elect(tion)" is used with a variety of meanings in Scripture that is largely contextual. Its discussion, I've observed, raises anxiety because participants may not be "on the same page" among themselves and/or with Scripture.
I believe the truth of Scripture's revelation that ALL individuals are sinners (Ps 143:2; Rm 3:9,23; Gal 3:22) and that it is out of this pool of sinners that God calls individuals to give up their enmity or antagonism towards Him and unite or reconcile instead. "God so loved" this ALL or 100% that "He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever", of this 100%, "believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (Jn 3:16). l believe this to be a general "election" provided in advance of need (Rev 13:8; Rm 5:18). Anyone's exclusion, including Judas', would be a serious violation of God's truthful nature (Tit 1:1-2). This is one meaning of "election" (Mk 13:20; Jn 15:16; 2 Tim 1:9-10).
There's a second meaning to "elect(tion)" that is specific to the called-out that doesn't apply to everyone else. So, for example, out of the twelve tribes of the priest-nation (Ex 19:5-6) God chose a priest-tribe to serve the priest-nation (Num 18:6). God would later reveal His complete sovereignty over this service selection process among His people through the allegory of Jacob and Esau (Rm 9:11-12; Heb 5:1,4; 1 Cor 12:7,11). Israel was called by God to be like a "priest" to the Gentiles, but every male Levite was chosen before birth as a priestly gift to the priest-nation.
Scripture records the process leading up to Judas' "election" to service (Lk 6:12-13), which I don't think is meant to teach that the non-selected "disciples" were being excluded from salvation. Scripture, however, teaches that there is a relationship between the salvation election and the service election (Ex 19:22; 28:36-37;Lev 22:1-3,32; Mt 21:37-41,43,45). That Christ calls Judas a "son of perdition" (Jn 17:12) reveals that a significant shift in their salvation relationship had occurred (Jn 13:27) resulting in both the loss of his salvation election (Heb 6:4-6) as well as his service election (Act 1:17,20,24-25).
Judas was not part of the elect when he chose not to be part of the elect. Or else, was it just for show that Jesus washed his feet? To be elected to be an apostle is different then to be elected to be saved, or else all other people living who did not become part of the eleven, even Mary, (His mother), would be lost.
Obviously, Robert Fournier, I was NOT speaking of "elected" to be part of the 12 disciples. I am speaking of being part of "The Elect," who are saved.
And I have to ask this question: Are you able to make perfect choices? I'm NOT!! I do not wish for salvation to contingent on my imperfect choices - No thanks!
Grammy I am very thankful for God's forgiveness when I make imperfect choices. Still I know my choices are very important. In Joshua 24 the people were asked to choose who they would serve. God does not force Himself upon us. He has prepared all our salvation, but the choice is ours to make if we will accept or reject His salvation.
Grammy, do you believe the Holy Spirit can lead us in our choices? I am sorry, but even though you seem to feel it is obvious we can't choose, I cannot relate to that in my personal experience or in Scripture. Can you help me to understand, by sharing Scripture telling us we can't make good choices, and thetefore our choice never plays a role in our fate? And also please share a personal experience to help me understand and relate to that idea?
William Earnhardt, if we could make good choices, Jesus need not have come. We could all merely choose to do the right thing, and there would be no need for a plan of salvation or a Savior. Humans are selfish and sinful, and can only make selfish choices.
Jeremiah 17:9 “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?
We do not make the choice to come to Jesus, we are drawn!
John 6:44 No one can come to Me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, and I will raise him up on the last day.
You are quite right that we cannot make good choices in our unaided fallen humanity.
However, Christ died in order to give us free choice. And He draws all to Him. (John 12:23)
The alternative to free will is slavery.
God does not want slaves. He wants people who love Him of their own free will. That's why He often compares His people to a bride or lover. The whole book of Hosea demonstrates this in that Hosea's life was a living parable to demonstrate how God relates to His people in love.
Inge, please show us from scripture where we are told that Christ died in order to give us free choice. I've never seen that one!
Sure. First we need to consider what the Bible means by "free." It is not necessarily physical freedom, but spiritual freedom, and that necessitates the power to choose. And we need to think of the natural condition of humanity after Adam and Eve chose to trust Satan rather than God. They thus become his slaves and, without Christ's intervention, they could not make good choices, as you also pointed out mentioning Jer 17:9 which tells us that our hearts are naturally deceitful and not trustworthy.
Jesus also reminded us that whoever commits sin is the slave of sin (John 8:34) and Paul tells us that all have sinned (Ro 3:23). Thus the natural state of humanity is slavery to sin, and, by definition, slaves have no free will.
Now comes the GOOD NEWS: Jesus declared that He would set sinners free (John 8:32 and John 8:36). Did he set physical slaves free? Not that we know of. So he was declaring that in Him humanity would be set free from the slavery of sin. That is, their free will would be restored so that they could freely accept His gracious gift of salvation.
Paul also refers to this theme of freedom: He tells us to stay firm in the liberty which Christ bought for us (Gal 5:1; Ro 6:18, 20; Ro 8:10)
To sum up: Without Christ all people born on this planet are slaves of sin, with no choice but to continue in sin. But Christ intervened as the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 18:8) to rescue humanity from slavery and restore freedom of choice to every sinner born on this planet. And our power to accept His salvation and to freely love Him is all part of God's sovereign will. Isn't that very good news?
Hi Joanne Pls read Jeremiah 24:7
'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart'.key word is RETURN.
There are some christians who have walked away from God,but they can definately come back and God will always welcome them back unconditionally.Actually our nature always bounces out of election, but the Grace of our LORD brings us back and therefore we bounce in only if we BELIEVE in our Lord and what he has done for US.Also remember the prodigo son story as well. Blessings
Sorry, Chris Mirambo, but I do NOT believe in yo-yo salvation, bouncing in and out, in and out. The Holy Spirit draws us to Christ. We confess our hopeless sinful condition and are forgiven, and covered with the perfect [imputed] righteousness of Jesus, a permanent covering that we do not have and then lose, have and lose, over and over! Does that mean we are now without sin? No, though our new heart WANTS more than anything to be perfect, and we certainly give it our best (though still imperfect) effort toward that end. But the beautiful thing is that when God looks at me, His forever adopted child, He sees NOT my imperfection, but rather the PERFECTION of His son, Jesus. I will safely remain under that covering until He comes to take me home to live with Him for eternity. Thank you, Jesus, for that Blessed Assurance!!
Joanne, you asked me to show Scripture that says exactly what I interpreted certain passages to mean. I think it's fair to ask you to show us where the Bible says that once we accept Christ is righteousness is imputed to us as "a permanent covering" that can never be lost.
I don't find it in Scripture. A Chris Morambo pointed out, Jeremiah 24:7 implies that persons who were once God's people but turned away can repent and turn to Him again. Are you saying you don't believe that? On what authority?
What about Paul's testimony regarding his strenuous self-discipline, so that,after having preached to others, he himself might not be disqualified? 1 Cor 9:27 Would you say to Paul that he was needlessly concerned, that he could never lose his salvation?
Might it be a bit presumptuous to be more sure of salvation than the great Apostle Paul whom we quote at length re matters of salvation?
Inge:
John 10:26-30
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. 28 I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY WILL NEVER PERISH—EVER! NONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE FATHER'S HAND. 30 The Father and I are one.”
That's a wonderfully reassuring text, Joanne, and one I treasure very much.
But I asked you "show us where the Bible says that once we accept Christ is righteousness is imputed to us as "a permanent covering" that can never be lost." This passage doesn't do it. What it does do is assure us that no one can snatch Christ's sheep from the Father's hand. It does not say that we cannot walk away from Him or jump out of the Father's hand, so to speak, of our own free will.
In fact in Heb 6:4-6 Paul implies quite the contrary. He uses the words, "if they fall away." That certainly seems to indicate that "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" can, indeed, fall away. And you also need to consider Jer 24:7 and 1 Cor 9:27 and other texts.
All of God's revelation as a whole reveals His truth. We need to recognize that we all interpret, but our interpretations must fit together into a unified whole.
Monday lesson :
The moral support that Jesus Christ has provide for you and me with confidence, He left His glory, his Power His Kingdom from Heaven to save us. In John 3:16 Our heavenly Father gave his only begotten son to dy for the humanity.
Gold's salvation has no partial, no (elect). Our Lord has spent 33 years with us, here in this world so he could teach humanity how to follow His steps, repared our injuries of sin. Praise be to God, He accomplishes all the fullfiment. Jesus's awesome foreknowledge deeply help us to be watchful the enemy, not to choose the weaked way, Satan.
Surely God knows my destiny, but his foreknowledge does not predestine any soul, choices set our destiny and has left that prerogative outside himself, he always influences us to do good but in no way is he a robotics engineer. If we are so concerned about our destiny, we should start being concerned about our choices. And if we are filled with the Holy Spirit (by choice) we escape the worry of making choices but God in us will choose for us. Oh how we may be filled by that Spirit.
God's word says otherwise, Mandenkosi Zulu.
Romans 8:29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:7 On the contrary, we speak God’s hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory.
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,
Ephesians 1:11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
Grammy I believe Mandlenski simply meant by predestine that God does not make our choices for us. You are right. We are predestined to be saved, but Mandlenski is right also in that God still allows us to reject it if we choose. It reminds me of the story of Isaac and Rebekah. God chose Rebekah, but she still was asked, "will you go with this man?" She still had a choice to accept or reject what God provided for her.
Hi William, could you please explain this for me: God knows who will be lost or not, yes? So if He knows that then there is nothing that I can do to be saved if He in his foreknowledge knows that I will be lost. Does He know the choices we will make? Are these scripted and we are just acting out the part? This idea has caused me great concern for the longest time. If we are given free choice, how is it that we can't choose the opposite of what He knows?
Thanks for your help.
Georgia, all my friends know when I go to the Mexican restaurant I will order the enchiladas but that doesn't mean they are making me do it. Knowing what people will choose does not take their free choice away.
Hi, Georgia. Regarding God's omniscience and your power of choice... I struggled for many years with reconciling that in my finite little human brain. But it came down to wrapping my head around God's awesome sovereignty, which we can never fully comprehend, yet we accept it. The truth is, He knew ME (and you!) since before the beginning of time - Every step I would ever take, every choice I would ever make, every thought I would ever think, every sin I would commit... Once I saw the hugeness of His all-encompassing sovereignty, I found that I no longer wrestled with the issues of "if He already knows, why should I bother." Perhaps give that whole idea some thought.
Thanks for the correction, powerful verses. Though suggesting that God 'predestined all people for Salvation which is kind-of more than fair, no one has been left to perish by the will and working of God. Thanks
I don't see any contradiction between what Mandenkosi Zulu and Grammy Joanne said.
Foreknowledge means God know our tendencies and choices as written in Rom 8:29. However, when we choose God led by the prompting of the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus, we are predestined to become Christ-like.
We can claim the inheritance in Ephesians 1:11 only if we are in Him.
Predestination is the devil's plan to tell us that God had already made the "choices" for us. That's not true. Adam and Eve sin but God provided a way out. He gave us a second chance in John 3:16.
The whole Bible is about God reaching out to us and our choice of repentance. Let's us make Jesus our choice in life!
Salvation is for all but if we don't choose it its our fault
When we chose it then are we the elect
We are free to accept God which is the right choice or follow the way that seems right to us but leads to death
I say choose Jesus because He loves us and paid the price for our free salvation
Hallelulia
So, Myrtle, you believe that our salvation is up to us, and our making a good choice about whether or not to be part of "the elect?" Really??? Humans are incapable of making good choices! I certainly know I am!! I would not want my eternal destiny to be based on any choice I may or may not make - Oh my!!!
Joanne, let's look at what the Bible tells us. Your attitude would be right if Christ were not our Savior from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8) When our first parents sold out to Satan by listening to Him rather than our gracious Father, they sold themselves into slavery. And had it not been for the intervention of the Son of God, they would have had no choice - as you imply we have no choice now. It is by God's gracious design (aka God's sovereign will) that Christ stepped into the gap to restore a measure of free will - enough to choose to accept His sacrifice in our behalf. That too, is part of God's sovereign will. It is His sovereign will that we freely choose to love Him. He does not want robotic slaves who have had no choice to be in heaven with Him.
As the lesson reminds us, God wants/wills all people to be saved. See 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9. (Please read those verses!) If God, in His sovereign will, wants all to be saved, then it must also be part of His will that persons may reject His desires in their behalf and thus choose to be damned. He only wants the service of love, which depends on choice.
And John 3:16 tells us that whoever believes in Christ (not everyone) will benefit from God's loving the world enough to give His only Son. "Whoever believes" implies a choice. And Ezekiel 33:11 tells us that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but His will is that the wicked repent so that they may live. In fact, the very word "repent" implies a choice, because the word means to "turn around." Again, if it is God's sovereign will that all the wicked repent, there must also be allowance in God's sovereign will for them to choose not to repent, since it is clear that not all the wicked do repent.
But the bottom line is that God is love, and He loves us so much that He wants us to be in loving relationship with Him, according to His sovereign will. And love requires choice. Thus it is part of His sovereign will to give us free choice to either choose to serve Him or to reject Him.
I am so thankful that God loved us enough to die for us so that we might freely choose to love Him! Aren't you?
PS Would you rather that a man bought you as a slave, or would you rather that he loved you and made a proposal that you could accept or refuse?
Inge, let's DO take a look at what Jesus Himself said:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I WILL DRAW all people to Myself.”
Precisely, Joanne. Thanks for providing those additional texts which clearly demonstrate that humans have free will: Jesus draws ALL to Himself, as stated in John 12:32. The fact that all are not saved demonstrates that All have also been given free will ...
.... unless, of course you believe in universal salvation, which would put Stalin and Hitler and serial murders in heaven to continue their evil work.
God is constantly drawing all of mankind to Him. But men make the final choice whether to follow Him.
Judas could have been saved if he repented after his betrayal of Jesus and choose not to commit suicide. Same goes for King Saul. I am sure God would have forgiven both of them if they truly repented.
As Gods descends to save us, we must ascend to accept Him.
Hi Myrtle. Indeed your eternal life depends entirely on a choice. Not on your choice of works (this is what you appear to be referring to). Instead, your eternal life depends on whether you accept the gift of salvation (Romans 6:23). As with any gift that you are offered, you have the choice to accept or reject it.
Sieg, what is a "choice of works?" Please explain.
Grammy. Anything we choose to do on our own power without God's help.
Or, in other words, any attempts to save ourselves by what we do rather than by what Jesus has done for us.
The chocolate cake thing, is like God telling us all have sin and come short of the glory of God. God before hand saw that the fall of creation would some day show it's ugly head, and he saw that he would make provision to rectify the situation. The problem here is that we think the way we think not the way God thinks. When you find out that your son is on a washed out road around one un expected bend. And you know how fast your son usually drives on that road with his confidence. You then decide to calling on the cell phone to watch out for that bend, if he ignores your forewarning thinking it a joke, it is not your choice.
I would have to conclude the the scriptures contradict themselves if I am to believe that Judas was not of the elect.. God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL come to repentance..
Also in John 3:16 ... WHOSOEVER believes shall NOT perish but have everlasting life.
What I am reading in those who say you are either ELECT or you ARE NOT.. if I am not of the elect, it does not matter how much I believe in Jesus or repent... I am shut out of heaven by God's arbitrary will.
Conversely if I am of the elect... no matter how debauched my life is, I will be granted to sit with Jesus on his Father's throne because God has determined it will be so... wether I agree to it or not. I have no say!
Hi Owen. Think of it this way.
Elect = those who accept God's gift of eternal life by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Non-Elect = those who reject God's gift of eternal life by rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
God already knows what your choice will be, so He already knows in which group YOU HAVE CHOSEN to belong. This doesn't mean that He made that choice for you. The choice is still yours. Accept God's Gift (Jesus) or reject Him. Your eternal life depends on your choice.
Sieg Hoppe, am I correct in saying that you then believe that WE chose whether or not we are among the "elect?" Our eternal salvation is in our own hands, of our own choosing??
Yes, we choose to accept the Gift of God (Jesus) as our Savior and only means for salvation. Reject that Gift and we reject salvation.
Since salvation is a gift from God, it isn't "of our own choosing" as you say. If it were, then it wouldn't be a gift.
Your choice is to accept God's gift or reject it. That is the extent of your choice regarding salvation.
God's offer of Salvation to everyone is wonderful. It is great to have the knowledge that I, that we are chosen. But to make the offer complete, we have to accept it. And then walk as if we know we are chosen.
Mattie E. Johnson, please show us the scripture(s) that tell us we must accept the offer of salvation. My Bible says that we are lost sheep. Do the sheep go looking for the Shepherd, or does the Shepherd seek for the lost sheep (who may not even realize he is lost)? And when rescued by the Shepherd, can the sheep refuse to be rescued and choose to remain lost?? There are reasons why Jesus used the symbols used in the Bible.
Joanne, the parable of the lost sheep is not the only parable about salvation that Jesus told.
He also told the parable of the lost (prodigal) son. That son clearly had to make a choice to return to the Father's house. And when he approached his original home, the Father met him a long way off.
Is it possible that Jesus told many different parables to illustrate not only different aspects of salvation but how He saves people in different circumstances?
We sometimes say that we shouldn't make a parable "walk on all fours." This is to indicate that a parable is generally meant to illustrate a single, major point, and we cannot draw doctrines out of every detail.
Lynrol, Jesus told us exactly why He chose Judas to be *among* the twelve. Jesus told his “twelve”: “You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give you.”(Jn 15:16). Judas was not included in that “choosing”(Jn 13:18). He did not *become* the son of perdition. He was chosen because he *was* the son of perdition. He was not a “disciple”. Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciple...” Jn 8:31. He was not a “believer” in Christ (Jn 2:23-25). Jesus “knew what was in him”. He said, “I am not speaking of all of you; I *know* whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled...” Jn 13:18. Jesus’ choice of Judas was in obedience to His Fathers command (Phi 2:8; 14:30,31). He even nudged Judas to do his betrayal work (Jn 13:27). The moment Judas left, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in Him.”(Jn 13:31)
Kenny in the end of your paragraph, you say Jesus "nudged" Judas to do His betrayal work. Are you saying that Jesus wanted Judas to betray Him? Or had chosen Judas to be the one to betray Him? Did Judas have to be the one who fulfilled prophecy?
Kenny, if you hold the belief that Judas was born a fundamentally different type of sinner from the ALL of Jn 3:16-17 excluding him from the reach God's love, then perhaps on this subject you and I have irreconcilable concepts. I would then like to hear, based in Scripture, your concept of the Creator's character. Unless I'm misunderstanding your words, the Creator might not be exactly as He revealed Himself through Moses (Ex 34:5-7), David (Ps 145:8-9), Christ (Mk 11:17), Peter (2 Pt 3:9), John (1 Jn 2:2) and Paul (Tit 2:11-12)?! Especially in light of Paul's words (Tit 2:12), your statement of 4/3/17, ["Jesus also said that the eleven had been cleansed through His word(Jn 15:3)"], should take on deeper significance than you appear to be attributing to it. It is easier for me to believe that God's ultimate Messenger (Heb 1:2-3) who was sent to bring salvation by teaching ALL men to deny ungodliness, worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age, dispensed high quality nourishment (Jn 6:51; 1 Pt 2:2) without exception.
In fact Scripture indicates that Judas was a flawed individual like the other eleven. Jesus washed his feet along with theirs indicating a level of cleansing (Jn 13:10). As the group's "treasurer" (Jn 13:29) others were aware that he was not completely honest (Jn 12:6). Jesus condemns human thoughts that precedes stealing among those that "defiles" individuals (Mk 7:22-23) warranting God's judgment (Rev 21:3,27). Approximately a year before His last Passover with the Twelve, Jesus revealed that one of them would betray Him (Jn 6:70). You're correct, "Jesus “knew what was in him” ", as He does ALL of us (Jn 2:24-25). It is ONLY within the safety of an ongoing relationship with Him, that the painful revelations of His perfect knowledge of our individuality should force us to cling with the faith gifted us (Rm 12:3; Eph 2:8) to our ONLY hope of CLEANSING (Jn 1:29).
Scripture records the dreadful transaction that occurred in the mind (Jn 13:27) of one He chose and bestowed a special honor (Lk 6:13; Mt 10:1,4); one He loved and ministered to as He does all the rest (Jn 3:16)--because that's who God IS (Jn 3:17; Mt 5:46-48; Lk 9:56)! Jesus didn't "nudge Judas", He was relaying to him the truth that would unfold in accordance with his mindset--after the symbolism of receiving "bread" from Jesus (Jn 6:33; Rm 5:18 compare this to Lk 24:30-32).
Judas became a "son of perdition" and is a sobering symbol of truth to all who profess to have a relationship with Christ (Heb 10:38-39,26-27; Rm 2:4-9; 1 Cor 9:26-27).
If Jesus choose Judas to betray him, in as much he choose Peter to deny him, Pilate to condemn him, the multitude to rebuke him, and all soldiers to crucify him, because the Scripture foretold us these things in prophesy. They all fulfilled part of prophesy, all sinned, all were instruments of perdition.
Far be it from us to think that the Lord choose Judas to betray him, it was because he wanted him to hear every sermon, teaching, rebuke, motivation from Jesus himself so as to consider his ways and change his character, even to Peter (his mouth), even to Pilate (in a dream). The fact that God knows our future should bring great tidings not insecurity and fear, because he knows the future he leads us away from stumbling (lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil), he gives us the right educate beforehand so that every temptation we face we have the power to overcome. Even in the fate of Judas, 1 Corinthians 10:13 "he will not let you be tempted above that ye are able to bear," God is very faithful.
Inge, you said:
"So he was declaring that in Him humanity would be set free from the slavery of sin. That is, their free will would be restored so that they could freely accept His gracious gift of salvation."
I truly mean no disrespect, but you are adding your own thoughts, words and personal interpretation to scripture. Nowhere in any of the verses you cited is there anything that even hints toward any restoration of our free will. What Jesus came to restore at the cross was our broken relationship with the Father. End of story!
Joanne, you wrote:
I shared my understanding of what the Bible teaches, and gave you the evidence. So you want me to cite only texts so you can interpret them? (Please do read them.)
Here they are again, with bare summaries:
Jer 17:9 tells us that our hearts are naturally deceitful and not trustworthy.
Jesus reminded us that whoever commits sin is the slave of sin (John 8:34)
Paul tells us that all have sinned (Ro 3:23). Thus all are slaves of sin. By definition, slaves cannot choose not to be slaves.
Jesus declared that He would set sinners free. (John 8:32 and John 8:36) So, because of the work of Christ, slaves of sin are free to choose not to be slaves of sin, but to be servants of Christ.
Paul also refers to this theme of freedom:(Gal 5:1; Ro 6:18, 20; Ro 8:10)
So, how do you read these passages?
I happen to agree. But can you find that anywhere in the Bible in those exact words? And is that all there is to the Bible? Shall we ignore all of Christ's explanation of what He did?
I find Christ's explanation of His mission to restore our freedom beautiful and compelling. I confess I am not much attracted to the idea that we have no choice and thus cannot truly love God. (Love absolutely depends on choice. If I cannot choose not to love, I am less than a slave. I'm a robot.)
For Inge:
Colossians 1:20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Colossians 1:22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.
1 Timothy 2:5 For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus
Col. 1:20 and Eph. 1:10 are two of my absolute favorite texts in the Scriptures for they reveal that the plan of salvation was not just for "our little world", but involved the reconciliation of beings in the entire universe ("both which are in heaven and which are in earth"). Jesus describes this reconciliation or at-one-ment as "all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:21) and goes on to clarify that God's love is the basis of this unity, harmony or reconciliation (John 17:26).
Love cannot exist without free will. Many of the Bible verses which mention "whosoever will" really are expressions of this free will. Adam and Eve, when created, were sinless and yet had free will. So also Eden restored will offer us the same freedom of choice. "Let each be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5).
More verses stating that Jesus reconciled us to God (some may be duplicated, since I'm unable to find my post of a few minutes ago):
Romans 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!
2 Corinthians 5:18 Everything is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.”
Ephesians 2:16 He did this so that He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross and put the hostility to death by it.
Colossians 1:22 But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him—
Great texts, Joanne! The kernel is found in John 3:16 in that God so loved the *world* that He gave His only son. As I mentioned earlier, when Adam and Eve listened to Satan, they become his slaves. If Jesus had not stepped in as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," they would have remained slaves. But Christ gave them a choice (something total slaves do not have), that "whoever believes" in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Have you ever considered that "believing" implies choice. If you have no choice not to believe, then belief is only programmed, like a robot is programmed. Choice makes belief genuine. Thus choice is required to truly believe, just like love is required to really believe. We worship a personal all-powerful God who deigned to become Immanuel, God with us, so that we might be able to see His deep love for us and love Him back. Love is a decision, a choice! And God gave us every incentive to make this choice.
But going back to "reconciliation," Christ reconciled the whole *world* to Himself, as John 3:16 implies. But the reconciliation is effective only for those who "believe in Him." It is part of God's sovereign will to give His creatures free choice, because He is a God of love and only desired the service of love, which requires choice. 🙂
Please show us texts which specifically state that Christ came to give us "free choice." As for me, my prayer is, "Lord, make me a God-directed Robot under your FULL and COMPLETE sovereign control!!"
Joanne, if you cannot understand that being "free" entails free choice, I believe we are out of options. We may be speaking two different languages. 😉
So you are saying you would rather be a robot than to choose to freely love God because He first loved you?
And if God totally controls the actions of His creatures and does not allow them free will, is it also good for persons in positions of power and authority to do the same thing to those over whom they have authority? (That would seem to follow, IMO.)
Is slavery a good or bad thing?
Inge, I actually want God to have complete control of me, my actions, my choices, my thoughts - my whole life. It's call submission! And it's the hardest thing that is asked of us as Christ's true followers. We humans crave being in control, and have such difficulty submitting. To me, freedom in Christ means freedom from striving. Freedom from working to "be good enough," because Jesus has already done ALL that is necessary to purchase and maintain my eternal salvation. In Him, I am ready and fully prepared - right here, right now - for His return. Come, Lord Jesus!! I am ready and eagerly waiting for You to come and take me home to live with You for eternity!!
Joanne, we are on the same wave length here. 🙂 But you most clearly imply choice in your comment. When you say "want" you are expressing will, and if you have power to exercise that will, you have freedom of choice. You are *choosing* to submit and *choosing* freedom in Christ by submission to His will. Voluntary submission springs from a heart of love, and it implies choice. If your submission were not voluntary, you would be ruled by a tyrant, not our Creator God.
(If you were *forced* you would be slave to a very different god than the bible portrays. In fact, if you did not *choose* to submit, your submission would be utterly meaningless. It would be just the way you were made as a robot.)
Again, please consider whether or not it is possible to love without free choice. Then consider that God asks us to love Him. Even Jesus said that the first Great Commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind.
Inge, I am willingly and happily enslaved to Christ and His righteousness. To wit:
Romans 6:16-20 (HCSB)
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
16 Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are SLAVES TO THAT ONE YOU OBEY—either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But thank God that, although you used to be SLAVES OF SIN, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were TRANSFERRED TO, 18 and having been liberated from sin, you became ENSLAVED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS. 19 I am using a human analogy because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you offered the parts of yourselves as SLAVES TO MORAL IMPURITY, and to greater and greater lawlessness, so now offer them as SLAVES TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, which results in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were FREE FROM ALLEGIANCE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Joanne, thank you for your beautiful testimony. 🙂 That is what Christ wants from us -- to "willingly and happily" choose Him as Lord and Master so that we use our free will to serve Him completely.
I do find your argument ironic, though, in that you argue against free will while using free-will language of being "willingly enslaved." In other word you "will" i.e. "choose" to be a slave to Christ. It would be quite meaningless otherwise, since without free will, you would be a robot, and a robot cannot be "willing" and certainly cannot love.
Notice that Paul specifically points out that he uses human/secular language to portray an essentially spiritual concept. He says that those who have given themselves to Christ (who have chosen Jesus as Lord) cannot at the very same time use their bodies for impurity. He is most certainly not advocating an absence of choice. In fact, he is urging them to use their choice to give themselves *completely* to Christ.
Hi Inge:
Regarding our free will and God's control of our thoughts, I like the following quote from EGW:
Happy Sabbath!
That's a powerful quotation, Pramod, and one of my favorites:
So let's take it apart to see whether it is biblical:
1) "If we consent" shows us that God will not do anything to us without our consent."
2) "He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will" -- That reminds me of Paul's themes of "Christ in you" and "in Christ."
3)"when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses." So it seems that God sanctifies our will so it is changed to be like His! That is powerful. Through His power, we can exercise this changed will so that we will obey from our own sanctified impulses.
That is so much more powerful than the idea that God has scripted our lives ahead of time, leaving us no opportunity to exercise free will. He *changes* our will to be like His, *if we consent.*
Thank you for reminding us. 🙂
Judas Iscariot was part of the elect.If you read DA,the topic on Judas,it says he had the opportunity to repent but his love for money hindered him .It is God's plan that we are all saved but our God gave us the ability to choose so if we chose not to follow His statutes we will be destined for doom but if we choose thè other we are destined for eternal life.Let us make our right choices now to avoid being lost,the Holy Spirit is there to guide us !.
Pamela Gatsheni, you have an unusual idea of what it means to be part of "the elect." The elect are the chosen ones. Judas clearly was not in that group. He was greedy and selfish - Those are not characteristics of God's "Elect!"
Just curious, Joanne. Are prostitutes and murderers part of God's "elect" or not? Why or why not? What about Rahab and David, for instance?
Before God placed this world, bHe elected every one to be saved . And for that reason he created human being with power of choice. God knows everyone hearts. He is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience.
Yes, Inge. Prostitutes and murderers (and ALL sinners), if they are drawn to Jesus and become born again, they are among His elect.
John 6:37-51
37 EVERYONE THE FATHER GIVE ME WILL COME TO ME, and the one who comes to Me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME: that I should lose NONE OF THOSE HE HAS GIVEN ME, but should raise them up on that last day. 40 For THIS IS THE WILL of My Father: that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
41 Therefore the Jews started complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Isn’t this Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can He now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus answered them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God. EVERYONE WHO HAS LISTENED TO AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER COMES TO ME— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God. He has seen the Father.
47 “I assure you: ANYONE WHO BELIEVES has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
I am delighted to be able to agree with you 99.9%, Joanne. The reason I asked is that you gave Judas's character as evidence for his not being among the "elect." But sure, if, as you say "Prostitutes and murderers (and ALL sinners)" can be among the elect, greed and selfishness does not preclude such election.
I wish I could agree with you 100%, and I could, if you didn't use that 2-letter word "if." You indicate that all sorts of sinners can be among the elect "if" they are drawn to Jesus. However, I read that when He was "lifted up" (on the cross John 12:32), Jesus would draw *all* to Him. So the problem with Judas was not that Jesus didn't *draw* Him. The problem was that Judas, by his own free will, chose to resist the drawing of Christ.
So one little word can be very powerful. The "if" makes the difference between a God who arbitrarily draws some and does not draw others, thus condemning them to hell and a God who in infinite love draws *all* to Him in order to be saved. And He respects our free will and allows us to either love Him back or reject His loving advances.
Even Judas was greedy and selfish, before Jesus created this world Judas was elected to be saved. If Judas was repented like Peter cried bitterly , God would open a way to save him. God's crucifixion would still in plan. God is God He has million way to save his children who want to come to Him. In Psalm 130 please read it.
I totally disagree, Nancy Pierre. Before the foundation of the world, Judas was "elected" to fulfill prophecy and betray Jesus. Either God is fully sovereign, or He is not, and is not God at all! What would have happened had Judas not fulfilled that prophecy??
Grammy you literally believe Judas was "elected" to betray Jesus? So God "elected" everything that was prophesied? Where in the Bible does it say "Judas was elected before the foundation of the world to do anything?" What would have happened if Judas had not fulfilled prophecy? First, where in the Bible did it say it had to be Judas? The Bible prophesied Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, but never said it had to be Judas. And if it had happened some other way it would have been prophesied some other way. Human nature would see to it that someone betrayed Him.
William Emhardt explained Judas bitter betrayal regarding Jesus's Cruxifition better than me. I don't need to go by the details and to search verses. William was ahead of me. Thank God for that. God bless.
Hi Grammy,
What does it mean when you say that God is fully sovereign? Surely it doesn't mean that He programs some to be villains and others to be the good guys. Would appreciate some clarity on this issue with Bible examples. Thanks.
In the judgement, how do we verify God's character of love? We are made in His image, in His likeness. We have chosen in obedience to "do thy will". Does God turn to the ones who all their life were seeking Him, and say to them, "those works mean nothing, I never knew you, you were not of the elect." ??
Adam was made in His image, but our hearts feel something different since sin entered the World. Psalm 139:15,16 David knows God always has a plan. He sees our deeds when there was "none of them". In Christ we have the Creator redeeming, buying back, our original design. He gives us restoration not only of a new body, but a new mind. 1 Cor 15:53. Corruption of mind/ choices and of the body are implicated there. Be not deceived, God is not mocked ...Gal 6:7 free will is all about choice. Without choice we have determinism, that is Satan's plan, forcing us to be lost. The Judgment tells otherwise. In Him (Jesus) i have life and that more abundantly. 1Jn 5:18-20, 1Jn 1:4, Jn 10:10.
We are weak, our character is soiled. Each of us has defects, and we are saved by the same Gift, but the expression that reveals it is unique individually. 1 Cor 10:13. So said let us see Him and not our petty differences.
This, Michael Trunkey, is God's will:
John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Gram joanne, you have a strong Biblical knowledge for just one thing. It is evident your perspective has blinded you to any further truth, even if it is consistent with your perspective. I knew someone else like that once. Naaman needed a child and a soldier to convince him he could be healed, and he was a strong worker after that.
Actually, Michael Trunkey, my grasp (more accurately, my acceptance) of that "one thing" (if you are referring to the all-powerful sovereignty of God) is the platform on which ALL TRUTH stands. Until your mind can grasp the meaning of that, you will indeed be blinded to all further truth. Once God revealed that truth to my heart, the lights came on and everything came clear to me, resulting in changes to what I believe and why I believe it.
Belief is a choice too.
Thanks for reminding us again, Joanne, that the sovereign will of the Father is for people to have eternal life. Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication that His sovereign will is for any to be *not* saved. And if any are *not* saved, it is clear that the deciding factor is their choice that they choose not to believe. While God *could* force some to be saved and others to be lost, this would violate His gracious loving character and would make a genuine love relationship impossible.
Yes, William Earnhardt, I most sincerely DO believe precisely that. Because I believe in a God who is FULLY sovereign and COMPLETELY in control of EVERYTHING, or He is not God at all. Before the foundations of the world, God knew my name and ordained every aspect of my life to be precisely what it has been every single moment - good, bad and ugly. He is either God or He is not, folks. There are no accidents or coincidences with God. Apparently, you have not been able to wrap your head around the awesomeness, the hugeness of an ALMIGHTY, FULLY SOVEREIGN God. I remember believing as you do and having that same problem, but I have come to understand. God does what He does, and He owes us absolutely NO explanation. He is God. We are NOT!
Joanne, I believe it takes a much bigger God to grant humans free will as part of His sovereign plan. Just as today, it takes more loving parents to teach their children how to use their free will to make good choices than it takes to be totally controlling, dictating their children's every action. I believe God is more loving and much bigger than the best of earthly parents. 🙂
Giving each of us reason and opportunity to love Him of our own free will certainly describes a more loving and just God.
Judas did not have to betray Jesus. In fact, Jesus did everything He could to appeal to Judas to yield His heart to the Savior's love, going so far as to lovingly wash his feet. But in spite of all this, Judas had so hardened his heart against Christ's love that he betrayed Him of his own free will for reasons we may not completely understand. (I rather doubt it was merely for money.)
In Job 2 we see the extent of God's love as he lets Satan take control of Jobs life. Why? He had to show the universe what sovereignty looks like. God so loved the world that he gave...a gift. Satan took Jobs life away, God gives freely, and we in faith respond to that gift. What we see as evil is God working for good. That puts him in control, and Sovereign. But in the story of Job we see the point is how does Job respond to that prompting? He is not just a pawn, but an example. God does rebuke and educate him at the end. Why? To teach all of us that what we see in this world is temporary, that God is not yet in full control, that Satan must be exposed and judged. We trust and believe in God. We have faith that he will overcome, but that overcoming is a choice to have faith, not presumption. We have faith,not just misinformed or ignorant beliefs. We also might lose our faith and follow cunningly devised fables. God knows, we trust in Him. I cling to Him knowing my life depends upon it. But Satan is at hand to resist me, like he did to Peter.
Pramod Hansdak, these are some examples you asked for:
Exodus 10:1 [ The Eighth Plague: Locusts ] Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I HAVE HARDENED HIS HART AND THE HEARTS OF HIS OFFICIALS so that I may do these miraculous signs of Mine among them,
Exodus 10:20 But THE LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he did not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:27 But THE LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he was unwilling to let them go.
Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, but THE LORD HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his land.
Exodus 14:4 I WILL HARDEN PHARAOH'S HEART so that he will pursue them. Then I will receive glory by means of Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh.” So the Israelites did this.
Exodus 14:8 THE LORD HARDENED THE HEART OF PHARAOH king of Egypt, and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out triumphantly.
Exodus 14:17 I AM GOING TO HARDEN THE HEARTS OF TH EGYPTIANS so that they will go in after them, and I will receive glory by means of Pharaoh, all his army, and his chariots and horsemen.
Exodus 33:18-19
18 Then Moses said, “Please, let me see Your glory.”
19 He said, “I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim the name Yahweh before you. I WILL BE GRACIOUS TO WHOM I WILL BE GRACIOUS, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION.”
Joshua 11:20 For it was THE LORD'S INTENTION TO HARDEN THEIR HEARTS, so that they would engage Israel in battle, be completely destroyed without mercy, and be annihilated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
14 What should we say then?(AB) Is there injustice with God?(AC) Absolutely not!(AD) 15 For He tells Moses:
Romans 9:14-18
I will show mercy
to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then IT DOES NOT DEPEND ON HUMAN WILL or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh:
I RAISED YOU UP FOR THIS REASON
so that I may display My power in you
and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
18 So then, HE SHOWS MERCY TO THOSE HE WANTS TO, AND HARDENS THOSE HE WANTS TO HARDEN.
Wait a minute though! Didn’t God harden Pharaoh’s heart? Yes, in the same way that the same sun that melts butter hardens clay. When we choose to resist God’s love we actually use God’s love as a way to harden our hearts.
Exodus 8:15 says,
“But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.”
And again in Exodus 8:32 we read,
“And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.”
So we clearly see that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, while God takes responsibility for what He allows or does not prevent, since He gives us all a free choice.
Does Romans 9 teach us God wanted Jacob to be saved, but Esau to be lost? Didn’t God even say, “Jacob I loved, Esau I have hated?” Yes, but by using the words love and hate, God was not saying He loved one and hated the other as we use those words today. Remember in Luke 14:26 Jesus says we must “hate” our families in order to follow Him? Most of us understand clearly that Jesus meant that we must prefer Jesus over our families. Likewise, in Romans 9 Paul is not saying God wanted Jacob to be eternally saved and Esau eternally lost. That was not the issue of Romans 9. The issue is clear:
it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” Romans 9:12 NKJV
The issue was clearly the temporal birthright and not eternal salvation. God wants all men, including Esau, to be saved.
Grammy Joanne,
Thank you so very much for all those Bible verses. Taken by themselves, it would seem to a casual reader that God has predetermined who would be lost and who wouldn't.
I am not a theologian. So I may not be able to use the right terminology to counteract all the Bible verses that you have given. However, I would like to make a few observations.
Regarding Pharaoh's heartening of the heart, the Bible states it in three different ways:
Exodus 14:8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh (The Lord caused the heartening of heart)
Exodus 7:13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard (Heardening of the heart occurred, but we don't know from the verse who caused it or how it occurred)
Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart (Pharaoh himself heardened his heart)
You left out Romans 9:14 which reads, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"
So, then, if a sovereign God has programmed some to be lost and others to be saved, does such a conclusion seem to be consistent with the picture of a God of love? (1 John 4:8 & 4:16). Does the word 'sovereign' also imply arbitrariness? Were Hitler and Idi Amin predestined to commit those atrocities? Is that consistent with our concept of a just and righteous God? Even here in the U.S., we have the concept of equal opportunity, equal treatment and equal justice. Would God be any less just? Certainly not!
If people are predetermined to be lost or saved, what would the following verses mean?
John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Eph. 4:31-32 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
Rev. 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev. 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
All the above Bible verses would have meaning only if mankind has FREEDOM OF CHOICE. If not, The above invitations of Jesus and the other Bible commands would be utterly meaningless. If there is no free will, why even bother to ask someone to do a certain thing? They would do whatever they were programmed to do anyway!
My own firm conviction is that God is love and He asks us to love Him and love one another. Where there is no choice, there can be no love. God wants "ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4-5).
In Revelation 15:3, a victorious throng on the sea of glass sing the song of Moses saying, "Just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints". Again in Rev. 16:5, an angel says, "Thou art righteous, O Lord". Both the redeemed of the earth and the angelic beings acknowledge that God is Just and True and Righteous.
I really enjoyed reading this over the past week. I thank all of you for the discussion. In looking at the thread it is clear we all want salvation, and believe God is able.
A deer is caught inside a fence which surrounds a park that is much larger than its normal grazing area. It never sees the fence, but it is contained. Some people see determinism or God's sovereignty in that way. God knows all, but we don't, so the practical aspects are the same. Others see the fence and think about future generations that will inevitably run into the fence. We will all see the handiwork of God and His revealing after the last trump.
Blessed Sabbath and Easter: 2Pet 1:8-11