Monday: When have the Innocent Perished?
Read Job 2:11–13. What does it tell us about how Job’s friends viewed his situation?
Having heard about what happened to Job, these men made “an appointment” (Job 2:11, NKJV); that is, they planned to come together and see their friend. The verses convey the idea that they were stunned at what they saw, and they began the process of mourning with him.
Image © Gilbert and Arlisle Beers from GoodSalt.com
According to the text, they sat silently, never saying a word. After all, what do you say to someone in a position such as Job’s? However, once Job first spoke, uttering his complaints, these men had plenty to say.
Read Job 4:1–11. What is the gist of Eliphaz’s words to Job?
Perhaps a good opening for a book on grief counseling could feature Eliphaz here. The opening chapter could have been titled, “What Not to Say to a Grieving Soul.” Though obviously these men sympathized with Job, that sympathy went only so far. It seems that for Eliphaz, theological purity was more important than basic consolation. It’s hard to imagine someone coming up to a person going through all that Job was going through and saying, basically, Well, you must have deserved it, because God is just, and only the wicked suffer like this.
Even if one thought that this was the situation in Job’s case, what good did it do to say it to him? Suppose a speeding driver got into a car accident and lost his entire family. Can you imagine someone going up to him right away, amid his grief, and saying to him right away: God is punishing you for your speeding? The problem with Eliphaz’s word isn’t just the questionable theology; the bigger issue is his insensitivity to Job and all that he is going through.
Think about a time people comforted you amid loss and pain. What did they say? How did they say it? What did you learn from that experience that could help you when you are in the position of having to comfort someone else?
(25)
There is a warning here to some of us that like to holier than thou We need to be considerate all the time The experience of suffering is above all as it makes us to lose hope from both GOD and us
Imagine? Experienced! People, especially from church, behaved just like Job's friends ...or worse...when we went through each of Job's losses, and each loss happened simultaneously, just like Job.
Try to place yourself in the time, territory, and situation of Job and each of his friends. They must have been acquainted by a common denominator of sorts. I would expect the proximity to each ones dwelling places to be close enough to be aware of Jobs condition. Job 2:11-13. They are listed as friends, and they came to mourn, take pity and comfort him.
We have questioned how we react to circumstances that show outward displays of sorrow? We offer different comments as our feelings become evident. For Job's friends, verse 12 says they had different ways of displaying their feelings, whether genuine or ritualistic. They tore their clothes, wailed loudly, threw dust in the air, and wept. We are not quite that animated but just as concerned. To just be quiet and near may be what is needed, and the most comforting at times. Better to say nothing than the wrong thing.
I would quickly excuse Eliphaz for he did not know or even understand how Job go to to be where he was! But even then, I would not judge him because more often, we too act exactly like him. We are sometimes perturbed by situations that the only way to express ourselves is point out the wrongs! This is quite bad and we need Gods spirit to guide our tongues, especially as we interact with the many people in this world that are going through pain, wars, terrorism and natural disasters.
I think there are even worse comments that are made by people. I would say Eliphaz was much better as he said all this direct to Job. Other who are worse will not say anything direct to the person suffering but will go and gossip outside with family and friends with theories of why one is suffering.
You see this situation, even our Lord Jesus Christ faced it just there at the cross (Luke 23v39). We see Eliphaz sympathy was mocarely in the sence that, no sence of humor was found in his words. His sympathy, can kill son one, in short that was killing. Job, if he had the week spirit. He wouldn't have endured that pain he went through. Equally Jesus Christ, if he had the week spirit. The pain he went through he wouldn't have endured and emeged a winner at the of the day. There are times in our life we face problems, now because our spirit is not strong. We tend to give up our Christian life. The road of a Christian is not an easy one, many are the obstacles, many are the mountains to climb. No wonder Jesus Christ set an example to us, that we ought to live a life prayer, lets pray for straight, lets pray for unit, lets pray to God for anything we need. For he said, pray and I will here your prayers. Prayer and faith, made Job to overcome all evile things Eliphaz was telling him.
I think Eliphaz words were supportive not cynical. Eliphaz supported Job\'s character, integrity and obedience and provided hope in the mystery that the LORD loves and cares those who are obedient and faithful in all circumstances...
Before we all start attacking our Brethen here; I want to say that I do understand your logic. Oftentimes, we forget that God is the God of Love toward His children that are suffering, and toward His children that are obedient and faithful. Just as we forget to think about the obedient son in the parable of the Lost Son, the son that stayed home and obeyed his father. God is Love, everything that He does is Love. Through the Good times and the Bad times, God is Love. And Eliphaz (whether you want to believe it or not) was trying to be supportive of Job, in his own way; he actually thought that he was helping Job. In his mind, at the time, he was trying to get Job to think about his personal relationship with God; maybe, there's something that you (Job) forgot about, something you forgot to confess to God. We all have our own opinion (like on this blog); poor Eliphaz just didn't know how to express his opinion tactfully, which is why God told Job, after He blessed him, to pray for his friends. Be blessed!
Hi Alam, It may have appeared to be supportive up to the end of verse six but after that he was like saying to Job "Hey Bro. what's happening here? what are you hiding from us? We know you as a righteous man but what are your deep,dark secrets?" Verse eight actually spells it out :-"Even as I have seen,those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same". I think he was implying that Job was reaping what he sowed. Isn't that what the church teaches, that "no sins go unpunished even if they are forgiven"? I learned that as a child growing up in the church.
So maybe Elipaz was saying this to Job out of his love, concern and appreciation of him and all that he had done for his community etc. Maybe he wanted Job to do a soul-search and fess-up. After all that's what friends are for - to keep us on the 'straight and narrow'.
The fact is, though, that Elipaz was just as unaware of the broader picture as Job was and could only see through his cultural lenses why this should be happening. Going by what the church teaches, he was on the right path.
I'm not aware that what the church or Bible teach is that no sin goes unpunished, even the ones forgiven... isn't that part of the whole forgiveness thing? the punishment is death and forgiveness leads to everlasting life. Elipaz was more than asking Job to search his heart for a secret sin, he was implying that Job had indeed a sin, otherwise why was God afflicting him. I believe this is that judgement warned about in Matt 7. This was that attitude of judgment that seeks to condemn rather than the restorative council that Job needed. There's evidence for this in that in the final chapter God rebukes Elipaz for his misrepresentation of how God deals with His children.
We could see here what it will be like when, we are told, that we have more to fear from within then from with out. It is said that those closest to us will be the ones to turn on us, even if they don't wish to. We will need to draw warmth from the coldness of the others.
The thing is that we need to see friends intentions rather then their poor stills of expressing them. They may of done better to stay home and pray for him from there. God saw their intentions and had Job, eventually pray for them.
Before you judge Job\'s friends, many of us have done the same thing with our friends at some point of another, especially those of us with very successful, and prestigious friends. When those type of friends lose their fortune, or their wife and children leave them, we as their friends have said some cruel things to them too. I remember a few years back there was a successful religious TV/radio couple, that had some serious marital problems, and split up. There were so many people criticizing them that didn\'t even knew their story, but they had harsh criticism for them anyway. As I stated before, everyone (including your friends) have the right to express their own opinions, whether it is the right one or not. I say this all to say that Job\'s friends are not the first or the last friends to be overly critical and/or downright cruel, instead of showing sympathy. Unfortunately, that\'s a part of being human as well. Be Blessed.
After 26 years, my marriage ended in a hateful slanderous divorce, fully intended to cover up a life of deception and adultery and destroy my reputation and influence with my two children, church associates, family and friends. My children experienced so much pain and eventually stopped going to church.
4 years later my only son died in a tragic accident. I found safety in withdrawing. The words spoken to me, I believe, were well intended to comfort but caused great pain.
It is sad that some people in our denomination are quick to judge when they see others going through something negative - putting blame on the hurting by saying,"they must have done something to deserve it" - we should take a lesson from Job's story - Satan does not like it when we strive to follow Christ - he throws darts at those who are faithful. When someone is going through a trial, why can't we see it as a faithful soul being tempted of Satan?
Gigi, I am so sorry for your loss, I understand and sympathize with you. It is hard enough to go through the lost of a divorce (which is a death of an relationship). Also, I went through a similiar experience with my church after my divorce, and I left the church for 5 years. In my case, the church knew that I was the "innocent" one, but they still treated me like I was one of those out-casted widows in the Old Testament(poor Toni), instead of encouraging me to get back into ACTIVE SERVICE for our Lord. It is very sad that the church that is "suppose to be so enlightened" does not know how to encourage its people (remember Job's friends); no wonder this revolving door syndrome has been going on for about 3 decades now. After I left that church, I didn't hear from any of them during those 5 years, not even the pastor or deaconess called me, and I went to that church for 14 years. When the Holy Spirit lead me back to the church, I had remarried and decide to look for a new SDA church close to my new home. I have been back in the church now for 13 years now. I did find out later that the Pastor of my old church didn't call me because he was moved to another church out of town. But what about the Elders and the other leaders of the church?
Gigi, I also understand the pain of losing a child; I lost my child in utero very soon after I came back to the church, and my pain is still the same as those that had the opportunity to raise their child. I would tell you that the old saying that "time heals all wounds", but that is not true; with time, it does get easily to bear the pain. My only HOPE for my pain and loss of friends, loved ones, and child is that I'm looking forward to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, where he will resurrect our dead loved ones, and we all will love with them and Him forever. No more death of loved ones or relationships! Be blessed!
People we differ the levels of faith we hold.
Eliphaz was at a different level of faith compared to Job's faith.
Hence,we can not blame Eliphaz.According to his faith, Eliphas believed that for someone to suffer like Job, he must be a sinner.According to Eliphaz, only sinners should suffer like Job. Eliphaz thought righteous people ar not suppose to suffer like that of JOB.
Eliphaz is an example of someone responding with the worlds wisdom to suffering. It made sense to Eliphaz that suffering was the consequence of sin and that if a person suffered he was being punished by God. Eliphaz was wrong. Jobs life is a clear example of sometimes the innocent suffer as part of His divine plan, to strengthen a believers life and change the lives of others for His Glory.
It can be easier for people to feel that a suffering person brought their punishment upon themselves and deserves it, because then they can excuse themselves from helping that person because they think they might be getting in the way for a special lesson that the suffering is supposed to teach that person.
In part of Eliphaz's opening statements, he claims to have had a vision of a heavenly messenger who has instructed him concerning Job's situation. (Job 4:12-16.) It sounds very dubious, and I expect that it was a self-inspired effort to sound authoritative.
Eliphaz continues speaking, and it is amazing to me that the apostle Paul quotes from part of his discourse (or 'consultation') with Job. Paul writes, "it is written", and then he proceeds to quote some of Eliphaz's words -- "he takes the wise in their own craftiness." (1Cor 3:19.)
"It is written..." Eliphaz.
In health care situations it is easy to trace the fault of a person to how they handled their God given health. The smoker usually has a lung problem; the drunkard will have a liver, heart or brain problem; and those that cannot control their appetite will become heavy and will have metabolic problems. Healthcare workers have, to encourage them whether they like it or not, to quit smoking, stop drinking alcohol and control or choose what you eat.
We cannot control our gender, our age or our genes but we can control our lifestyle and choice of food and drink. Often it is easy to point what could be the mistake of a person on why he/she become ill. But when someone has a loss in a family and losses his livelihood, that's a very touchy situation... One must really be careful on how they offer sympathy and comfort and pray to God that may they say the advice and words in due season and according to God's will.
Mention should be made on the good part played by Job's friends.They come together to see and mourn with their friend. In these days, it is very unfortunate that friends like Jobs' are lacking, who leave their work and household in order to mourn with their friends. Let me say that these guys were real friends. There is this proverb which goes like this , a friend in need is a friend indeed, so from this day's lesson let us therefore learn to be real friends with everyone we associate with in our daily lives just like Job' friends or like Jonathan to David and God will hear our supplications and bless us if we do so.
Stay blessed.
Some years ago, when there was a major earthquake in Haiti, voices were heard saying that the disaster occurred because of the evil practices of that place. This same kind of thing was said about Bande-Aceh too, which suffered terribly in the Boxing-day tsunami of 2004. It seems that whenever a major disaster occurs in the world, there are religious voices ready to say that 'such-and-such' occurred because of the evil of the place. While there might be some truth in the statements, the spirit of such statements is not right. They are "miserable comforters".
Jesus addressed this attitude directly when a group of people came and told Him about some Galileans that had been killed by the Romans as they offered sacrifices in the Temple.
"And at that time, some came and told him of those Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
And Jesus replied, and said to them: Suppose ye, that these Galileans were sinners beyond all the Galileans, because this occurred to them?
No. And I say to you, That all of you also, unless ye repent, will likewise perish.
Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, suppose ye, that they were sinners beyond all the men inhabiting Jerusalem?
No. And I say to you, That except ye repent, ye like them will all of you perish." (Luke 13:1-5)
Hi Stewart, I have read this text many times but looking on it in the light of the study on Job and what his friend was saying, it sounds like the same thing Jesus was saying. What I am seeing is that Jesus was saying to the disciples {And I say to you, That except ye repent, ye like them will all of you perish." (Luke 13:1-5)}is that the only way they would not perish is if they repented (become good people) but if they stayed in their sin (be bad people) the same bad thing would befall them. This I think would instill fear in them and coerce them to be good and repent as opposed to repenting from a heart of gratitude and love. I don't know if I am reading too deep into this thing but I am a bit confused. Was he talking about the first death here where both good and bad die(sleep) or the second (perishing)death?
Another thing too Stewart, didn't God punish some folks in bible times for being bad? The church calls it righteous indignation. Can we determine when it is God punishing for wrong doing or Satan just reeking havoc? This is really bothering me.
Stewart, I love the spirit of your comment, and I agree. However, the same analogy can be said of all the countries around the world; there doesn't exist any country that didn't have "evil practices" at one point in their history. There were many religious opinions from outside America that said the same thing when September 11, 2001, the pain and tragedy of the Twin World Trade Towers event, happened. Also, after that event, almost every church in my town had doubled its membership, because many religious voices were preaching that maybe the end is nearer. Unfortunately, those talking heads could not keep up the momentum. Nowadays, at small and large churches in my town, there are a lot of empty seats, entire pews are empty; many of the churches have closed down altogether.
What we all need to do is to show more encouragement toward one another, which is why I love with this chat blog. Life is Hard, and we all need love and encouragement to see us through. As you stated at the end of your comments, Jesus was really saying to them, in modern terms, 'none of you are better than the ones that dead, nor are you better than Pilate even, you are all sinners; and you (and Pilate) will perish if you don't repent'. Let us all pray for each other, love each other, and encourage each other no matter what country we are from; we all will be saved together. Be blessed!
Georgia I have some definite views on these things, and have tried responding to your questions, but I've not been able to get the thoughts out as I would like. But in answer to your first question -- "was He talking about the first death here where both good and bad die(sleep) or the second (perishing)death?" -- I would say that Jesus was talking about both. Jesus knew that the destruction of the Temple, and the destruction of the whole spiritual 'economy' of the Jews, was approaching.
Various revolts and insurrections led up to the great calamity in A.D.70, when the Roman armies under Titus came and put the Jewish nation 'in its place'. The men that had come "with secret satisfaction", telling Jesus about the Galileans that had been killed in the Temple courtyard, were likely among the crowds that flocked to the Temple when the Romans broke into the city. They literally died just like those despised, unfortunate, Galileans.
Georgia, with regards to the punishments, or judgments of God, my views are probably summed up in the following comment -
"I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way:
They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." (Last Day Events p.242)
I believe that all the violent judgments which are said to come from God are to be understood in this way.
I agree with the general principle that sin destroys. But I have reservations about your belief that "all the violent judgments which are said to come from God are to be understood in this way."
It helps to review the context of what else Ellen White said on the subject. Right next to this quote, the trustees of the Ellen White Estate reminded us of another quotation that provides balance:
And then there's this, just a couple paragraphs down from the same compilation which you cited:
Whether God permits or God commands, God is in control, and He takes responsibility. For all who are open to seeing, God has demonstrated beyond a doubt that He will move heaven and earth to save us, but He will not wrench us from earth to heaven against our will. And for those who refuse to trust Him enough for salvation, there is nothing more He can do but to annihilate them. Even that is an act of mercy, since those with rebellious hearts could not find happiness in heaven.
I personally believe that God is working very hard to save all He can. He's not looking hard to see whom He can condemn. As the the beloved apostle says, they that do not believe are condemned already. (John 3:18) Through His Spirit, God is working to persuade them believe so that they can be saved.
Georgia, yes there are "judgments" from God in Bible times - things for which He takes direct responsibility.
You will find these falling into two categories:
Judgments that are meant as discipline to allow people to feel their need of God and return to Him. These were only mercy in disguise, because without such discipline the people would have perished for eternity.
Other times, the judgments involved the death of people, which could hardly be deemed "discipline" of the people that died, because they got no further chance. One clear example is the earth swallowing up Korah, Dathan and Abiram when they rebelled against the Lord. Their rebellion was clear and final, and God destroyed them as an object lesson to the nation of Israel.
As a general rule, sin destroys without any direct intervention from God. It's the nature of sin, and thus sinners self-destruct. But there are specific instances in the Bible when God directly intervened, and He has told of future events when He will directly intervene to bring the history of this earth to a close and then to cleanse it from all sin and pollution.
There are some who like to spend time arguing that "God never kills, only Satan kills." But that argument requires some convoluted reinterpretation of Scripture. It is also a bit disingenuous when you consider that Satan can only do what God allows. We don't give a doctor or a nurse a pass when they take a patient off life-support without authorization. They will stand trial for homicide, if not murder. In the same manner, in the book of Job, the writer does not focus on Satan but, through Job, holds God directly responsible for Job's suffering because He allowed Satan to harass Job.
You ask whether we can tell when God is "punishing for wrong-doing" or Satan just "wreaking havoc." And I ask, do we need to know? If we are involved in wrong-doing, we put ourselves in Satan's power, and he will be delighted to make us suffer as much as God allows. Our concern should be to make sure that we nurture our relationship with God by opening ourselves up to Him each day through study and prayer and then listening to Him and working with Him throughout the day. Job kept His faith without knowing all the reasons, and we can too, if we will just focus on Him. That is why we are studying the book. 🙂
We are definitely NOT called to judge whether the suffering of others is the result of God's judgment!
Satan had set out to prove Job a hypocrite by afflicting him and to achieve his nefarious purposes he used his friends. Remember,Job's friends had come to sympathize with and comfort their comrade(2:11). Their intentions were laudible and showed that they had the "milk of human kindness" However,they ended up failing to comfort Job.
Eliphaz maintained that good men were never ruined. He went on to make light of Job’s afflictions when, in my view, he said "It touches thee and thou canst not bear to be touched.’’ (Job 4: 5) Further, Eliphaz decided to concentrate too much, I daresy, on Job’s resentments, and was quick to rebuke him: "Thou faintest, or thou art beside thyself; thou ravest, and knowest not what thou sayest.’’ Thus he unjustly charged him with wickedness and false-heartedness. Clearly,this was the very thing Satan aimed at,to prove Job a hypocrite,and "expose" God's poor character. When Satan could not make the same accusation stand against God, he then tried through Job's friends to persuade Job to confess himself a hypocrite. In support of his argument,he put forward two principles (I) That good men never perished (v. 7): "Remember,I pray thee; recollect all that thou hast seen,heard, or read, and give me an instance of any one that was innocent and righteous, and yet perished as thou dost, and was cut off as thou art.’’ In otherwords,suffering always resulted from guilt. But then you may ask, didn't Abel perish though he was innocent?
Eliphaz reminds Job that he had instructed and assisted others in their time of trouble, strengthening the weak and upholding those who stumbled. But then he charged that Job himself could not handle the things he had advised others to handle, implying that his understanding of suffering was flawed. In his assertions his source of authority for his statement is: “I have seen.” Note that he does not claim Divine revelation,only depends on personal experience and observation. This is the “authority” many people appeal to, but let me remind all that human experience can and often is fallible. It amounts merely to human wisdom, whereas the only sure source of truth is Divine revelation. (Proverbs 3: 5 - 6; Matthew 15:9,13; Colossians 3:17 etc.)
When Eliphaz uses the analogy of lions to illustrate his point, he gets scathing and in my view,scornful. Lions are powerful, fierce as they work in a team but they eventually suffer, deteriorate and die. Their teeth get broken, excluded from the team and they are scatter. It seems to me that Eliphaz is saying that Job was once great and respected like a lion but now had come to a bad end after preying upon other animals. He seems to be implying that Job had come to a bad end because he'd mistreated others or had lived in sin all the time. For me, the important lesson for us here is this: we need to refrain from passing rash and uncharitable judgements upon our brethren hastily and condemn them as hypocrites, because as we do so, we would inadvertently be performing Satan’s work,and serving his interest. Our role is to be kind and supportive to one another. Its not our place to condemn one another without understanding and having the full picture.
Later, when Job asks, "Are not mockers with me? And does not my eye dwell on their provocation?" (Job 17:2), he appears to be saying that he is focusing on their provocations/arguments. They are getting to him, provoking him, and Job is allowing himself to get drawn in to a controversy. This makes me think of Jesus, who so often "refused to be drawn into controversy". (DA 498.) Job goes on, and tries to vindicate/defend himself -- "I was eyes to the blind, and feet to the lame, I was a father to the poor..." (Job 29:15-16), "I did this and I did that"; but in the end "Job ceased to vindicate his own righteousness" (Signs of the Times, Aug 11, 1898). I think that we can often expend a great deal of effort trying to vindicate our own position on something, when it is really not necessary... and in the end it made no difference; it was not even helpful.