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Sabbath: Covenant Law — 36 Comments

  1. I think this week is going to be a challenging discussion. How can we talk about the law and not be legalists?

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      • Shouldn’t we then be using the law and our desire and efforts to keep it as a barometer of our love for God? So often we put the cart before the horse and communicate the idea that we need to focus more on keeping the law, and not so much focus is put on getting to know and establishing a relationship with Jesus which will result in loving and thus obeying His laws.

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    • Because I love Jesus I express my love to him through obeying his words. Because I love my human families without any barriers, I live in love with them, and do what he/Jesus asked me to do. I cant love my enemies with my own strength but he is the one who gives me the power to do.

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    • Considering the law as legalism is only the view of those who do not delight in righteousness, who have no love for their fellow man or for God who made them. The law of the Lord is "perfect", and we would consider any place "heaven" if all those dwelling there observed the Law of the Lord.

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      • No one can claim of absolutely keeping or obeying the Law- for everyone have sinned and come short; although it is good and perfect for rightful living, it is not enough for absolute righteousness needed for salvation. Besides we only need the Law, the Ten Commandments, for fairness and peaceful living on this sinful earth but literally not necessary in heaven. That doesn't mean that there is no Law in heaven but will be like the Laws of the holy beings. The Law was given because of sin and I believe it is part of the curse after sin which is death.

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        • If sin is the transgression of the Law and all have sinned; and the wages of sin is death - then I conclude that the Law is the harbinger of death. Therefore there is no hope in the Law because we cannot totally keep it; but our hope is in Christ alone who is the only one who can absolutely keep the Law for us by faith in him.

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          • The law is only able to identify sin, and doesn't create sin. It only condemns those who are guilty, who refuse to "repent and believe the gospel"(Mark 1:15), which will include most of the world. No one is talking about hoping in the law, but it is clear that the law must be written in our heart/mind, in the language of heaven, not as the list given in the language of sinners so they could recognize their sin and realize their peril apart from the grace of God "which brings salvation"(Titus 2:11).

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        • Alvin, we should consider the Word of God to understand the meaning of "keeping" the commandments. The covenant God offers to sinners will ultimately lead to overcoming. Those who are saved will "keep the commandments of God and have the faith/testimony of Jesus"(Rev 12:17; 14:12), and only those who "do His commandments" will enter the city of God and "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"(Rev 22:14, Ps 23:6).

          The justification(pardon/forgiveness) offered by God is real, and removes all record of wrong-doing by those who believe/receive Jesus as the propitiation for sin(John 1:12, Rom 3:25,26), and if faithful, will be sanctified(made holy) by the Word and Spirit of God(John 17:17, Zech 4:6), for without holiness, "no man shall see the Lord"(Heb 12:14).

          Notice the 7 promises to "him that overcomes" in Revelation 2, 3. Overcoming is the sanctified life. This is promised to all who trust in God fully(Jude 1:24).

          If we dwell on ourselves and our failures, there is no hope to overcome or "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth"(Rev 14:4).

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    • How can we talk about the law and not be legalists?

      You have discussed this example before but why are you faithful to your wife?

      1) So that you will gain her love? NO, you already have that.

      2) So that she will be faithful to you? NO, you already have that too.

      3) Because you are afraid of her? NO, there is no fear in love (1 John 4:18).

      Because you love her? YES, YES! because you love her.

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    • fortunately ellen white provides all the guidance we need, especially in the work DESIRE OF AGES, in how Seventh-Day Adventists are not legalists and yet "keep the commandments".... Those who take Christ at His word, and surrender their souls to His keeping, their lives to His ordering, will find peace and quietude. Nothing of the world can make them sad when Jesus makes them glad by His presence. In perfect acquiescence there is perfect rest. The Lord says, “Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Thee: because he trusteth in Thee.” Isaiah 26:3. Our lives may seem a tangle; but as we commit ourselves to the wise Master Worker, He will bring out the pattern of life and character that will be to His own glory. And that character which expresses the glory—character—of Christ will be received into the Paradise of God. A renovated race shall walk with Him in white, for they are worthy. {DA 331.2}
      As through Jesus we enter into rest, heaven begins here. We respond to His invitation, Come, learn of Me, and in thus coming we begin the life eternal. Heaven is a ceaseless approaching to God through Christ. The longer we are in the heaven of bliss, the more and still more of glory will be opened to us; and the more we know of God, the more intense will be our happiness. As we walk with Jesus in this life, we may be filled with His love, satisfied with His presence. All that human nature can bear, we may receive here. But what is this compared with the hereafter? There “are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.” Revelation 7:15-17. {DA 331.3}

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    • Seventh Day Adventists should never apologize for being moral and religious. Morality is superior to apathy, evil . Religion is superior to narcissism, immorality, evil and lawlessness.

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  2. The more I read and know God, the more I want to be lead in His pathway and follow Him. It is my choice. The more I know Him the more I love Him and follow Him, no legalism needed or required.

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  3. Seems so far all have fear of what they say of the law will be held against them. Yes we are in a catch 22. No doubt.
    Oh well we have been called worse. So let's dive right into a talk. I have chosen to give my thought on what God is saying to the people through Amos. "Can two people walk together unless they are agreed?" Amos 3:3. I do believe what God is saying, is you can't expect you and I to have a relationship if you don't uphold your end of My covenant with you. I have given you land and made your harvest great with enough overflowing, Exodus 19:5-6, and you turn around and worship false Gods. Amos 3:14 "Will two walk together if they don't agree?" Amos 3:3. Answer is No. So what is our option. Simple, If you love God you will listen to and take action obeying His commandments. Legalistic No. We just want to allow God to have the right to call us His people and we call Him our God. Jeremiah 31:33.

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  4. What is salvation? In my country even many schools still have pit toilets. From time to time we read in the news of a baby being saved from a pit toilet.
    Ps 40:2
    He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.
    Matt 1:21
    And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
    James 5:20
    you can be sure that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his ways will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

    Salvation is to be saved from a life of sins, did the baby saved from the pit toilet want to go back and live in it? But how do we know what is right and what is wrong? The LORD created humans to be like Him and declared them very good, His words and instructions outline His will and character and He is offering to restore our hearts and minds to be like His again.
    I believe that if we study all the instructions the LORD gave to the Israelites to discover the principles behind them we will find they still apply to us because each one reveals how to live in harmony with the LORD and His people.

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  5. Paul writes that “Christ is the 'end' of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes”. In other words, if we wish to know what righteousness looks like in the daily life, study the life of Jesus, the son of man, who is the Christ. His life was a perfect demonstration of what the law represents in our daily dealings with God and our fellow man, showing the diligent student how one may worship God “in spirit and in truth”(John 4:23, 24).

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    • The Law is still valid as the source of righteousness or rightful living but not as source of salvation. It is to the Jews under God in Theocracy before Christ came, but since no one can absolutely keep the Law- for everyone have sinned and have come short;- Christ came to fulfill the Law for them and for everyone who believes.

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        • God is the standard of righteousness and not the Law or Ten Commandments. A saving righteousness is imputed righteousness which is the righteousness of God or the perfect righteousness of Christ. If you depend on the Law as your standard of righteousness then may God bless your soul.

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          • Alvin, you do know what I mean by "standard" don't you? Yes, "Christ is the end(telos) of the law for righteousness"(Rom 10:4), but before Christ, the law was given to man, which remains our "standard", not the means or the source(Ps 19:7-11, Eccl 12:13,14, Rev 12:17; 14:12). Jesus was ever teaching the law and its purpose for us, while living it perfectly. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. It is the standard given to man from God, both spoken and written. Jesus fulfilled the law and His righteousness covers the repentant sinner by faith.

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            • The wages of sin is death and sin is the transgression of the law; how come you still die if you really were able to keep the commandments? Partly you are right that the Law is the standard of rightful living for sinful beings but for absolute righteousness, it belongs to God; for no matter how perfectly you obey the commandments, you will still fall short- you still die. Even how much you love God and keep his commandments it will not save you, you still are bound to die. So our only hope is the absolute righteousness of Christ since he is the only one who is perfectly able to keep the commandments for us and was offered and gifted to us freely without merit of our observance of the law. That doesn't mean that we are free to do evil but free to accept his gift which leads us to salvation by faith in him and behooves us to act like Christ.

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            • If you think of it as standard or means or basis of righteousness are in some way the same in purpose-it is the rules we live by in this sinful state of being. But if you are looking for a higher standard, God has provided us a new and better standard when Jesus said: "I give you a new commandment that you love one another as I love you"... Can we love as Jesus love, unconditional love? Yes we can, if we let Jesus live in us, dwell in us through the Holy Spirit and allow Jesus to perform absolute obedience to the law for us; therefore it is not us anymore but Jesus doing it for us. What is closer to the truth is that, we totally surrender self to Christ and not depend on our own effort lest we boast. Not even our faith can save us because a saving faith is not generated in our own self but totally the gift of God. Eph. 2:8

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            • Alvin, answering both comments here...

              First: Those who keep the commandments are shown in scripture to enter the city of God, and will never die. So I'm not sure why you have shared such a conclusion.

              Concerning Jesus keeping "the commandments for us", see Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14. If it were true, none would be lost.

              Second: Consider what Jesus taught whenever asked how to gain eternal life, or what one should do to have eternal life as revealed in scripture(Luke 10:25-28, Matt 19:16,17). Jesus taught that we are sanctified by the truth/law(John 17:17, Ps 119:142), and yes, it is by "the power of God unto salvation"(Rom 1:16), but we are left to choose and act(Josh 24:15, Phil 2:12, 1 Tim 6:12, Jude 1:3, Eph 6:11, James 4:7-10), to share just a few scriptures on this subject. There is no "do nothing" religion taught in the Bible, and to be saved "by grace through faith", WE must exercise the faith, which is done through actions. Just do a word study of "faith" and see how this is taught in scripture. Hebrews 11 would be a good start.

              You wrote: "Not even our faith can save us because a saving faith is not generated in our own self but totally the gift of God. Eph. 2:8"

              If this were true, wouldn't all be saved? Also, why did Jesus often say "your faith has made you whole"? And why are we called to "have faith in God" if it is not our faith? And why are so many lost through unbelief? I would suggest that the gift of faith is that God gifts us with evidence that leads us to exercise faith(Rom 10:17). If God simply gave us faith, we would not be told to "have faith", and all would have "faith" and be saved. We may easily quote scripture without fully understanding its meaning, but we are promised to be taught by the Lord IF we desire it and ask in faith(Ps 32:8).

              The "new commandment" was just that before Jesus, there was no perfect example of love, though the law defines it perfectly, because Jesus did nothing more than fulfill the law. "The Law of the Lord is perfect"(Ps 19:7), and Jesus added nothing to it, but has left us with a perfect example to follow. At that time, the leaders and the people were confused about the law and it was taught and demonstrated while being void of love. So yes, for them it was a "new" understanding, but not a new principle.

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        • could we say that the law is the standard/definition of righteousness, not the source?

          Christ is the standard/definition of Righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).

          I would prefer to say that the law is the mirror which shows us the dirt in our lives and the need to turn to Christ, the only One who can clean us up.

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          • Sieg, didn't you just contradict yourself? If the law is the mirror, how is it not the standard? How do you consider Eccl 12:13,14?

            Jesus kept the law, so why He fulfilled all righteousness, He added nothing to the law, which is "perfect"(Ps 19:7), so if He is the standard, the law must be also. God gave the law long before Christ, though He was promised at the "foundation of the world(Rev 13:8). Jesus taught and illustrated the principles of the law by keeping it perfectly(as we may by "the power of God[Rom 1:16]), which is how God has expressed His "good, acceptable, and perfect will" to mankind(Ps 40:8, Rom 12:2).

            Consider also Romans 10:4, and realize that Christ's perfect righteousness reveals the standard of the Law of righteousness. They are one. Otherwise, are you saying the Law is deficient in some way? We're talking about a standard here: a rule to measure by. Jesus lived "by every word" of the law, so the Law was His standard wasn't it?

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            • Response to your comment:
              First:Those who keep the commandments even how perfectly they obey will still come short and still will all die. Those who enter heaven, the paradise restored, will never die not because they kept the commandments but because they depended and have faith in the perfect obedience of Christ and imputed to them. You are not sure of my previous conclusion because you do not understand the nature of man who are all sinners and no one can enter heaven except those who are redeemed by Christ. Many who kept not the commandments will go first to heaven because of the blood of Christ covering the sins of all men-1Tim.2:4 -Prostitutes, morons, retardeds, imbeciles, alzheimers, babies, and even the thief on the cross. it's true that Jesus kept the commandments for us because we cannot perfectly keep it, and all will be saved except those who refused to accept his gift or believed in him.Acts 16:31, 1Tim 2:4

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  6. We Adventists are legalists no matter how we deny it. We depend on observance and obedience to the law as part of salvation by grace. We cannot just discredit our choice in loving response to the love of God towards us by observing his prescribed rules of living known as the Ten Commandments. Why are we shunning from being legalists? I don't see anything wrong being one depending on how you interpret it.

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    • Well, Alvin, if you would narrow your focus and write, "Some of us are legalists, no matter how we deny it ... " I could readily agree with you.

      But "we Adventists" do not teach that "observance and obedience to the law" is part of salvation. Rather, obedience is the result of salvation. We cannot possibly act in harmony with the Law of self-renouncing love that is the law of life for earth and heaven until Jesus saves us and the Holy Spirit takes residence in our hearts.

      It is true that anyone who depends on obedience to the law as part of "salvation by grace" is a legalist. Paul spent quite a bit of his time teaching and writing against such a belief. (Check out particularly his letter to the Galatians.) We are saved solely and completely by the grace of God. Our own works do not add to our salvation even a little bit. Rather, if we accept Christ's salvation, we invite Him into our lives, and He works out His righteousness in us. (Phil 2:13) That's why good works/obedience is the result of salvation, not the basis of salvation. There's a world of difference.

      See also Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:7-9; Rom 1:5; Rom 3:26-28 (notice that justification comes by faith *without* the deeds of the law).

      Our obedience demonstrates the genuineness of our faith in God, because if we really trust Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior, we will yield our lives to Him, and that results in obedient behavior. As James writes, "Faith without works is dead." That's because it is not genuine faith. But "works" does not contribute or add to our salvation, which is solely a gift of God. John 3:16

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      • Obedience to the Law saves you a lot of trouble in this life for without the Law it will be chaos. All man, in one way or another, is bound by obedience to the Law if they want peace and fairness. Part of the curse of sin for without sin there is no need of the Law, the Ten Commandments, that is. In salvation, faith and obedience are the two sides of a coin, you cannot have one without the other; and yet it is both the gift of God. You cannot claim that it is but the result of faith for your faith is not even generated from you neither is your obedience- lest you boast about it. Ephesians 2:8

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        • When you say we yield our lives to Him, you still insist that you need to work by your effort energized by His power to perform your obedience. I think what is closer to the truth is that; total surrender of self to Christ, allowing Him to live in you through the Holy Spirit, therefore it is not you but Christ who performs total and absolute obedience acceptable to God, for no matter how you try it you will still fall short.

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          • No, I do not "insist that you need to work by your effort energized by His power to perform your obedience."
            I wrote that "if we really trust Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior, we will yield our lives to Him, and that results in obedient behavior." And I believe you are saying the same thing when you write, "it is not you but Christ who performs total and absolute obedience acceptable to God."
            Thank you for your clarification. 🙂

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        • It seems we are in agreement then.
          We are legalists only if we trust in our obedience to law for salvation.
          If we trust in Jesus for our salvation, our lives will demonstrate this in our obedience.
          From personal experience, I know that a focus on obedience does not really work, for genuine obedience comes from the heart, and only Jesus can change the heart.

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          • I totally agree with you. May God bless us all in our dependence to Christ as our Savior and redeemer.

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  7. Due to our sinful nature we require the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be enabled to be obedient to our Saviour and King because of our love for what he has done for us.

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  8. In the comments above I see two patterns of focus:
    One focuses on Christ as the Source and foundation of salvation, with His perfect obedience entitling us to eternal life, rather than ours.

    The second pattern of comments focuses on our obedience as our part to ensure our eternal life. While this "part" is presented as empowered by the Holy Spirit, the focus is still on our obedience.

    From personal experience I will say categorically that, whether or not the second focus is theologically correct, it does not work for me, and I haven't seen it work for anyone else. I grew up with that focus, and God accepted me with my imperfect understanding and imperfect obedience. But it was only when I recognized my utter helplessness to obey and my dependence on Christ's perfect righteousness that I began to experience the joy of salvation promised by Christ.

    I believe the correct theology/teaching is that as we trust Christ implicitly (have faith) and set our wills to obey, we experience the power of the gospel. It's like the man at the pool of Bethesda who was powerless to get himself into the water which he thought would heal him. Jesus simply asked him whether he wanted to be whole. Then He told him to take up his bed and walk. The crippled man could have reasoned that this was impossible, but he did not stop to reason. He trusted Jesus, set his will to obey, and as he did so, his body and muscles pulsed with new life, and he got up and walked. He experienced the power of the gospel. Note that obedience was not a requisite of healing. But obedience and healing went hand in hand - totally inseparable, as one of our commenters noted. So it is always with faith and works/obedience. We cannot obey without faith, neither is the faith genuine without obedience. They go together. Always. (John 5:1-9 ff.)

    In my experience, a primary focus on obedience does not lead to obedience. The man at the pool was focused on getting healed/walking. But that didn't cure him. Only when he changed his focus and put his trust in Jesus did he experience healing. In the same manner, our only hope of experiencing the joy of salvation in our own lives is to focus on Jesus, rather than focusing on obedience. The obedience will manifest itself naturally as we focus on our relationship with Him who desires to life out His perfect life in us.

    So let us lift up Jesus and Him crucified!! (John 12:32)

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    • A million times Amen to that! May all be enlightened and be willing to accept salvation through Christ alone!

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