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Tuesday: The Beast Arising Out of the Earth — 30 Comments

  1. The really annoying thing about the second beast is the deja vu experience. Here we go again. Out of the Reformation we see Protestantism evolve, determined to leave behind political Christianity. The path was not easy - Lutheranism and Calvinism were quickly embroiled in politics and persecution but with religious-based migration to the new world, we find a determination to separate church and state so that people could worship according to their own conscience.

    However such separation has often been a lip service only. One of the biggest eye openers to me was to read Bill Clinton's autobiography, "My Life". While the book itself is full of self-justification, it does give an insight into the effect of militant fundamentalistic Christianity on politics. It surprised me that in a country that makes a big issue of the separation of church and state, there is such an overt and successful attempt to control political thinking by militant fundamentalist Christianity.

    I need to make a note here because I have mentioned this previously and someone has already commented to the effect that Seventh-day Adventists are fundamentalists. I see a marked difference between the fundamentalism as practiced by Seventh-day Adventists and that practiced by those who are militant fundamentalists. In fact, the term "fundamentalist" carries with it politically active overtones to the extent that I prefer to be known as a Bible-believing Christian rather than a fundamentalist.

    Militant fundamentalism seeks to actively involve itself in imposing Christian values by legislation. They forget the principles of love that Jesus set down in precept and example when he lived on earth. They forget that Christianity is an invitational rather than coercive religion. The danger for Seventh-day Adventists is that we see that in terms of moral teaching we often have similar values to the Christian fundamentalists and fail to see that their methods of coercion and legislation and essentially the same as those used by the papacy that ultimately led to persecution. We need reminding that the end does not justify the means.

    Interestingly, we are experiencing a growing interest in fundamentalism in other religions, most notably in Islam. ISIS is based on a strict (and perverted) interpretation of fundamentalist Islamic theology.

    I am not a prophet and I am not putting forward this view as the only interpretation of this prophecy. It is important to understand the issues rather than attach labels to individuals or nations. There is merit in studying these prophecies again seeking understanding rather than simply accepting Church teaching because that is something we have always taught.

    Interestingly this prophecy is prefaced by the reminder:

    If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:10

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    • ...there is such an overt and successful attempt to control political thinking by militant fundamentalist Christianity.

      Throughout scripture, horn/s most broadly denote having and using/employing power. Like several other metaphors throughout scripture, this metaphor is linked to both the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Darkness.

      However, it is important to note that the manner in which power is used/employed within each Kingdom is in accordance with the nature and character of that Kingdom.

      Within the Kingdom of Darkness that is based/founded upon self-exaltation/promotion/gratification/etc, power is used coercively to either overtly or subtly control and dominate in order to bring/break another into forced submission against their will. The signature results of this use of power is steal, kill and destroy (Jn 10:10). The lamb-like beast had horns and spoke like a dragon from the outset.

      By contrast, the Kingdom of God is based/founded upon self-renouncing/denying/giving love (Matt 16:24) that would sooner lay down its life rather than coerce (Jn 15:13). Power is exclusively used within the Kingdom of God to redeem, heal and restore. And freedom of choice is always supported and maintained - often to lengths that would actually surprise and even shock us (Lk 23:34). The signature results of this use of power is healing and restoration to super-abundant life (Jn 10:10; Jn 4:14).

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    • Maurice, I rarely disagree with your view but I have to say in this circumstance I do. We as a Church, have always interpreted the event that turns the world back to worship the Beast as fundamental Protestantism but history would suggest and the current political events would suggest that it might be paganism in its new modern form. The form I suggest is Humanism powered by Earth/planet worship, Environmentalism. This is a religion as powerful as any apostate religion that has ever come along. If one compares the history surrounding the fall of the Southern Kingdom of Israel just prior to its fall and capture in 457 BC to the events of today, one would find paganism with its infant/child sacrifice was the final affront to God and His protection was withdrawn. Infanticide has just become legal in parts of the USA. Johnathon Chan’s book, The Paradigm would more than suggest the two dynasties came crashing and will come crashing down as a result of the pagan practice of child sacrifice.

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      • I don't see you as disagreeing with me Jim, but rather extending what I have said. I cannot say everything I want to say in a couple of paragraphs, and leave it to people like yourself to extend, enhance and even contradict what I have said. My aim in writing my comments is to encourage discussion rather than reciting traditional Adventist positions. That is the way we encourage one another to grow spiritually.

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  2. I agree with Maurice and Phil what is important is not so much who the beasts are but their character and beliefs. It is actually comfortable to identify the 'baddy' (the cowboy with the black hat) because that means I am on the other - good - side, but if it is a matter of character and beliefs, then I have to examine my character and my beliefs. Am I really certain that what I believe is the truth? Isn't there a list that I can check off to know I am not being deceived? I believe that immortality is a gift and not an inherent right so will not be deceived on that (!?) but are there other beliefs which are not so clear cut that don't really matter like which event is referred to in Rev 5? Which issues matter?
    Should we be listing those beliefs we think are wrong of the sea and land beasts? of our own churches? or should each one decide for themselves? Does it matter what I believe so long as I love Jesus? Does my understanding of the LORD's character matter?

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    • I believe it is very important as to what I believe! Jesus often said of unbelief being a major "sin". Here are they that keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus. My belief of Jesus (trust) is what should be my focus. If we miss the trust in Jesus guaranteed in spite of all the beasts and dragons mentioned in Revelation, we have missed the purpose. Even so come Lord Jesus!

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    • For better or worse, what we believe and understand God’s nature and character to be will make a difference.

      It is a principle of life that we become like that which we behold (2 Cor 3:18). Consequently, our theology will unavoidably shape our methodology.

      A prime example of this is the way Saul of Tarsis treated followers of The Way in Acts 9:1 after having also condoned and supported the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7:54 - 60. Saul was absolutely convinced that he was operating in harmony with the nature and character of the coercive and vengeful God he knew and believed in.

      After his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus and his ensuing conversion and re-examination of everything he had previously mistakenly believed, we see a very different Paul who willingly underwent hardship and deprivation rather than fight back and who, when mocked for his teaching on Mars Hill, left people free to make their own choice for or against (Acts 17:32). Paul knew firsthand what it meant to be changed by beholding. The God he now knew was radically different to the one he thought he knew. And that change made a similarly radical difference to the way Paul treated others as he went about ‘doing God’s work’.

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  3. You raise a lot of thought questions. "Does it matter what I believe so long as I love Jesus?" Yes. When we studied Paul's writings last year we find that just because we have salvation as a gift does not mean we slack off on our obedience, loyalty, love to Christ. Just because we obey, have allegiance, and love for Christ, does not mean that we have been working for our salvation. Sounds contrary, no that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ in a nutshell. "Does my understanding of my Lords character matter." Yes. I pray give me Lord the mind of Jesus, make me Holy as He is, may I prove I've been with Jesus who is all my righteousness, therefore I find it necessary to learn of His character. I go with an instructor to learn flying. Do I leave it there, no I keep learning, and relearning, it is a life and death matter. Deuturomeny 30:19-20.

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    • But another perspective is that if I love Jesus, I will want to follow Him, and the Holy Spirit will lead me to a more complete and accurate belief. God believes that strongly enough that He banked all Heaven on it as the way to resolve the controversy started by Satan. Unfortunately, many of His followers are less convinced, and resort to other means, such as coercion, and putting the cart (works) before the horse (love).

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  4. Another traditional depiction of the land beast in the picture for today. The land beast is not lamblike. It is the beast with lamblike horns. Tradition is hard to shake. SOP never calls it a lamblike beast. Neither does Scripture. I point this out because it is very difficult to shake tradition in our application and thinking.

    Initial identifications of RCC and America are accurate, but I perceive a broader application perhaps: apostasy and false prophecy?

    My point being that the RCC and America may be partial applications of these beasts, but perhaps not fully. Perhaps it is symbolizing apostacy and false prophet powers. In a world-wide (sea and earth) effort the dragon works through religio-political powers to make life difficult on the remnant. The remnant's lack of conformity in the face of threats continues to thwart the plans of the dragon.

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      • Hi Crystal: Sorry for the shorthand. RCC means, Roman Catholic Church. But I want to clarify something. It is more to do with the Papacy than the church as a whole, in this part of Revelation. It is also the manifestation of the great falling away spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess. 2. So, I don't want to sound like I am against Catholic members, not so. They are God's children as we. The prophecy is pointing out an institution, organization, etc., not people individually.

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    • Kevin, please explain your understanding of the implication of the fact that it is only the horns of the land beast and not the body that are lamb like.
      You are right I always understood the description applied to the whole animal.

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      • Hi Shirley:

        The first issue I have with the mischaracterization of the land beast is the lack of paying attention to detail in reading a text. That can lead, and often does, to misunderstanding of the message and poor application to its meaning. The second thing, and it may not be that big of a deal, but it is a distortion, is that by calling it a lamb like beast one moves to saying America was founded a Christian nation. On the face of it, maybe no big deal, but that kind of thinking can lead to a confused understanding of our history.

        The land beast is a wild, untamed beast according to the Greek, and it may start out mild as some take that from the way the appearance is described: the horns first then moving to the speaking as a dragon part. But it is a beast of the world, not of God, that is mimicking Christ at some level (I think our traditional interpretation of separation of church and state still good for the horns), but its heart is really that of the dragon (out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks).

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        • Thanks Kevin for your explanation, true, attention to detail especially when the message is in symbols is best. That is interesting that the Greek tells us it is a wild animal.
          So what does the text say? Does the order that John notices the horns and then the mouth mean something? To me non scary ruler (horns) and scary (dragon) legislation (speaking) imply different time periods and a downward spiral.
          Now that my mind is freed from traditional understanding I am reminded of Dan 8 and the ram (grown up lamb) with two horns that was beaten down by the goat with a big horn - probably a step to far but an example of freeing the mind from tradition.

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          • I have no problem with the order of description as that is important. Like the sea-beast description (all in the past tense by the way) is reversed in order of the beasts in Daniel 7: body of leopard, feet of bear and mouth of lion. John is describing the history of the sea beast to give insight to what that beast is and how it is placed in the end time context of chapter 13.

            Thus, at first glance as the land beast is immerging from the earth the first thing one would see is lamb-like horns that would indicate a "softer" beginning leading to a "hard" ending.

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      • Hello Nashe:

        Horns in the bible often represent power, authority and it has been the traditional view that one horn repreaents the church and the other horn the state. Thus, the principle of separation of church and state codified in the United States Constitution is seen to be sybolized in the lamb-like horns. Lamblike because separation between church and state has allowed freedom of religion, liberty to freely choose faith, change faith or have no faith at all without any detrimental affects on ones civil privileges as a citizen.

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  5. What does it say about the deceitfulness of sin when the two greatest powers of earth are under the control of the devil? These circumstances will cause great perplexity for those who fear God, give glory to Him, and worship Him. It is Satan's object to shipwreck the faith of God's true people, and for many who profess to worship God, Satan will succeed, if we believe scripture.

    Does this revelation lead us to “fight the good fight”, having “put on the whole armor of God”?
    There is no other means of remaining faithful to God if we don't exercise faith in His Word, both the written word and the Living Word made flesh. The opposition against truth will appear to be overwhelming if we are not yoked together with Christ who will give His faithful servants Rest.

    If we don't fully understand the meaning of these revelations, we will underestimate the true nature of these things which must shortly come to pass. God's people will need to stand in a time when all earthly support will be taken from them. The circumstances will be extreme, but “this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith”. How well do we know and trust the Lord and His “exceeding great and precious promises"? If not partakers of the Divine nature, we will fall when the king of the north comes like a whirlwind(Dan 11:40,41).

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  6. Why do many SDA churches in America display the US flag in their sanctuaries, the symbol and emblem of this lamb like beast?

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    • You make an excellent observation. I am not sure of the beginning of the practice of flying the flag in the sanctuary or on flag poles on church property. My guess, is the desire to show support for the country for which we reside. But it is problematic. How we display the national flag is usually atop the Christian flag or the national flag indoor pole my be slightly higher than that of the Christian banner. Thus, what is suggested is our Christianity is submersed to the claims of the state.

      There is a valid reason why the Jehovah Witness faith community doesn't display the flag nor pledge allegiance. Not that they are un-American, but that their ultimate loyalties lay with God alone. A good practice.

      The other day I saw something on my way back from a speaking appointment that I haven't seen before. On a country highway in central South Carolina a home had a flag pole with the American flag below the Christian flag. I wish I would have taken the time to stop and go to the door of the residence and inquire as to what brought them to do that. It is the correct message.

      As a post script: the land beast isn't lamb-like. The two horns are lamb-like. It's a point I brought up in my earlier post. It is a natural use of the description as Adventism developed this view over decades now.

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    • As Christians, we owe our allegiance to 2 kingdoms, represented by 2 swords in the Bible.

      One sword is in the hand of the church (sword of the word of God to control spiritual order), the other sword is in civil authority (Romans 13:1-4) - to control civil order.

      One can view it this way as well: 2 tablets of the 10 commandments - the first table is not enforceable by rule of civil law, the second table deals with our coexistence, and therefore enforceable by civil law.

      We therefore as Christians must be at the forefront spearheading CIVIL order, as long us it is subject to SPIRITUAL order. In Romans 13:1-4, the civil authorities are given their 'sword'by God as well.

      By demonstrating patriotism through raising our national flags, we confirm this allegiance to civil order.

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      • I see where you are coming from, William. I would suggest a modification to this issue of allegiance. It seems to me that scripturally, we owe our allegiance to God alone. We seek first the kingdom of God His righteousness. At the same time we respect laws in the countries for which we are citizens or reside, up to the point a law conflicts with any of the laws of God that appear on both tablets.

        Allegiance is a word that at its root means giving primary loyalty to a lord as a vassal to a king. This is the point at which Jehovah's Witness' cannot cross with the act of pledging allegiance. And from what I understand American churches are almost alone in flying national flags in the sanctuary or on church property. Most likely this is due to different developments in their national histories with the country for which they reside and this point of ultimate loyalty to God, not man. Yes, respect for national civil order up to a point.

        Indeed, being a citizen of God's kingdom means we will be first to live within the laws that bring order to societies in which we are part of, but they certainly can't abide with laws that either thwart one's commitment to their Maker, or laws that are inhumane toward fellows citizens or fellow human beings. Getting mixed up on these distinctions on loyalty can be costly to one's Christianity.

        Patriotism can lead to subsuming one's identity in Christ to that of national interest. Tragic example of this was the SDA Church and most of its members in Germany pledging loyalty to Hitler and the Third Reich. We did this by showing support in our publications along with actually removing people of Jewish heritage from our membership roles.

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    • Is it common for US churches to have flags inside the church and fly them on church property? When I have visited US churches, I have often wondered what an emblem of the state was doing in church. It would be interesting to know the origin of this custom and it if there is an official rationale for it.

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  7. Consider that it is sometimes said (although most often in job seeking) “It’s not what you know, but Who you know”

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  8. It's the Image of the beast (a new end time world power) who demands worship and puts a mark on people not the land nor sea beast? However the mark is the name or rather the character of the sea beast. Remember that it is the "people who dwell on the earth" the group who are the enemies of God's people who set up the Image of the Beast because they were deceived by the land beast. Because they were deceived they probably don't even know they are doing the work of the sea beast and thus don't know that their mark is the same as the name/character of the beast.

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