Tuesday: Giving as a Way of Sharing
After his conversion, the apostle Paul took up the mission to bring the gospel to the Gentile world. The success God gave him raised significant questions about the relationship between the Jewish roots of the emerging Christian faith and the new Gentile followers of Jesus. A council of Jewish and Gentile Christian leaders met in Jerusalem to discuss the matter and seek God’s guidance in relation to these complicated questions. The meeting and its outcomes are recorded in Acts chapter 15.
Giving
However, in Paul’s report of this meeting found in Galatians 2, he adds another important element to the instructions he received from the Jerusalem council for his continuing ministry among the Gentiles: “All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along” (Gal. 2:10, NIV).
And Paul continued to pursue this focus personally (see, for example, Acts 20:35) and throughout his ministry. Like the early church in Jerusalem, Paul expanded the vision of the Christian community to embrace all fellow believers.
Read 2 Corinthians 8:7-15. How does Paul link the gospel and giving generously?
Paul also drew on two Old Testament references to urge the believers to generosity and care for their fellow believers in difficult circumstances. He cited the story of God’s generous provision of manna to the Israelites in the wilderness as a model of giving and sharing among the wider church community (see 2 Cor. 8:15). He also quoted from Psalm 112:9—“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor; their righteousness endures forever” (2 Cor. 9:9, NIV).
Paul urged his readers to be intentional about giving, to put aside regularly a portion of their income so that it would be easy to give when he or Titus visited their church to collect their offerings and deliver them to the Christians in need in Jerusalem. He used the example of one church to encourage other churches to similar generosity. “Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves”, Paul wrote, “others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else” (2 Cor. 9:13, NIV).
| How should we prioritize giving when we are unable to give to every cause or need presented to us? |
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We often hear the words in public prayer, "Lord send us the Holy Spirit to guide us ... " and then we forget that the really important part of praying is opening our ears and listening to needs of those around us.
The story is told of a very practical bush pastor in the early settlement days in Australia. On his rounds he came across a farmer trying to rescue his cattle who were bogged in a waterhole. It was drought time and the cattle in their effort to get to the water had got themselves bogged in the thick gluggy mud. The bush pastor dismounted his horse and got down into the mud with the farmer to help pull the cattle out. A high church official happened to be on his way to visit the bush pastor and was horrified to find him in covered in mud. He looked down at the bush pastor and said, "Shouldn't you be praying?"
The bush pastor responded, "Listen!" All that could be heard was the moaning of cows stuck in the mud. "That is the sound of cows praying for help and today, I am God's ears!"
Praying for the Holy Spirit to guide us is of little value if our ears are closed to the needs of those around us.
Great illustration. Too many of us are mouthpiece without being the hands and feet.
Great story Marcus! May I use it in my Sabbath School class this week? Reply back to give me your permission. Thanks. And God Blessings to everyone!!
I think you probably meant “Maurice”. 😀 Yes, you are welcome to use the story.
I am really blessed. Please allow me to share this illustration with my church in PNG. I am asked by the Children Ministry as "guest speaker" for their sjine project and their theme is "the joy of sharing." I'm touched by this bush pastor's act of kindness. Thank you.
Of course you may share the story. Happy for you to do so.
I would propose changing the title of today's lesson to 'Giving as a way of living' - meaning giving as a lifestyle within the Kingdom of God.
Proclaiming the 3 Angels messages is frequently promoted as primary - and helping others as either secondary or as a way of 'luring' people in so the 3 Angels messages can be proclaimed to them.
However, if we observe Jesus life and teaching there was no separation of the two. Jesus showed us that the Kingdom of God is about how we live - and that teaching/preaching is sharing the details of how and why we live that way to those who seek to know.
Could this be why Jesus said that people will know we are citizens of the Kingdom of God if we live a life of self-renouncing love and service to God and others (Jn 13:35) - rather than saying people will know we follow Jesus because we proclaim that we do?
I would propose that a lot of issues melt away when we realise that Christian faith is a way of BEING and LIVING rather than merely a set of 'doctrines' to be proclaimed.
What do you think?
What I think? Phil, I think the three angels message is the priority message for this time of the earth history, and we are not aggressive and urgent enough proclaiming it to the world, precisely because we don’t know what actually it is, neither understand the true meaning of it.
Yes, still in place are all the “Christian things”: a healthy lifestyle, returning tithe, Christian education, taking care of the needy, being ...(might I borrow your trademark expression?) being “self-renouncing” .... Let’s put it in this way:
Let’s say you are close to home in midnight driving from a long trip. As you turn into your street, you see a house in fire, yet, everyone seems still sleeping. If you are truly and really a self-renouncing person, you will risk your life to save the people inside.
As a thief (putting aside all manner decors) you go and break a window to go inside of the house, and start yelling as loud as you can, not just telling them, but ordering to get out of the house. You even become rude, pushing and kicking them out as soon as possible. There is no time, neither of any importance to tell them about God’s self-renouncing love. The “message” is: “get out of the house and save your lives”. It is an urgent call to act on the spot.
The three angels message is: that urgent call to “get out”. Jesus is coming way sooner than most Christians realize, even when all the signs are pointing to be so, which are developing in front of the eyes ... like a stupor dreaming series of events.
As the time goes by, more urgent and of more important is the three angels message, and everything else is being fading away, till the point that it doesn’t matter at all any self-renouncing: when the time of probation closes.
Right now there is a huge fire in the Amazon forest. There is not time, neither is wise to talk about re-forestation, or how to take care of the forest. The focus now is to put out the fire. Period!
The earth is not yet fully “in fire” (meaning, the very tail of the last events -even when we are living in the last events as now) but “the fire” is getting bigger faster, and the message of the three angels (as the message of Elijah and John the Baptist) becomes more and more of urgent: Repent. Choose God. Prepare yourself for the coming of Jesus. Be saved in Jesus.
Yes, the three angels message should be of priority as nowadays ... and more so as time goes by.
William Earnhardt posted the following in the ssnet on Sep. 27 2014, under the caption "Are we still preaching the three Angels' message". The following is an excerpt.
"...Sometimes people get so wrapped up in prophecy they forget it’s all about Jesus!....They forget that the mark of the beast has a counterpart which is the seal of God. The seal of God is the character of God. We learn about the character of God and the seal of God by studying the life of Jesus".
"Some complain the church preaches too much about day-to-day living instead of the Three Angels’ message and prophecy. But it is the day-to-day living that reflects the character of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit that seals Christ’s people to Him. The Sabbath is only the outward sign of the inward faithfulness. (Keeping Saturday as the Sabbath won’t save anyone)".
Remember the rich young ruler could not be faulted with the letter of the law, but with the spirit of the law he fell short. In preaching the Word let us endeavour to share God's character.
The three angels messages involved way much more than just prophesies.
The challenge is how the SDA have been “preaching the three angels messages”, which most SDAs are “tired” of it and don’t want to hear about it anymore.
Recently I have been hearing more and more many SDA pastors, SDA leaders, SDA bible workers, SDA scholars, saying that they do not, and will not, preach about Jesus coming soon because people are “fed up” with it, and since Jesus has not come yet, it is very discouraging to bring the subject up, and to preach about it.
When was the last time you heard a sermon about the soon coming of Jesus?
Here is the thing:
When Jesus came the first time, they were all warped up with rules for their daily living, ignoring and pushing aside the prophesies pointing to the coming of the Messiah, and because of it, they even didn’t recognized Him, but rejected Him, and killed Him, which brought their own judgment on themselves.
...Think about it.
I understand the issue that you are raising Eli, but I think there is more to it than just shouting louder that Jesus is coming. I am old enough to remember the kind of sermons that were preached during the Korean War. I was only a kid and they scared me. Then I was a teenager when Pastors entitled their sermons. "Will Britain Join the Europeans Common Market (ECC)!" another predictor that we were in for the time of trouble before Jesus comes (I wander if some pastors are capitalising on the fact that Britain is trying to leave the EEC now.) The list of events and predictions in sermon topics is long. The Bay of Pigs, the Hungarian rebellion, the rise of Islam, the fall of the Berlin wall, the list goes on and on. Those of us who are fourth/fifth/sixth generation Adventists have heard it all. And there are some who feel we have linked the calamities of this age to the Second Coming of Jesus so often that we are guilty of inducing spiritual deafness on the topic. We get scared into behaving ourselves for a while, then we go back to our old ways again.
Added to this, if we try to speak to those in the secular world about the second coming we may as well be peaking another language. Very little of what we say makes sense. You can should "Fire" in English as much as you like to say, the isolated natives of Mongolia but is will not make any sense to them if they do not speak English. Much of what we say about spiritual themes to unchurched folk is simply unintelligible, or worse, sounds downright hostile.
Does that mean we should stop preaching the Three Angels' Message? Does it mean we stop preaching about the Second Coming. But if we fail to recognise that we are speaking in a language that does not make sense, then we may as well preach to the trees. The really effective preaching is the life of a changed Christian acting with the unrestrained love of Christ, not only towards one another but even to our enemies. If we fail to interact with one another in love, then all our verbal preaching does not make sense.
Is it possible that if we learn to love one another in the true sense that our verbal preaching will make sense?
If we get that right, the Three Angel's Messages becomes meaningful.
Brother Eli, firstly I want to make it very clear to you that I, nor any of us on this blog, desire to discredit what you are saying; in fact, I highly respect you, for you appear to be a very learned man of the scriptures. However, may I tell you two stories from the Bible to illustrate how prophecy and character should go hand in hand:
The woman at the well, John 4: 4-43. Jesus could have told her straight out, "I don't like how you have been living your life so far, repent and follow me", and he would have been right to say so. But instead, Jesus took His time with the woman at the well, he wanted to show her that he genuinely care about her, as a person, and as a sinner; so He said to her (after asking her to give him a drink of water, and offering her "living water", another subject in itself), "Go, call thy husband, and come hither." The woman did not know that Jesus already knew that she had "For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband..." The woman was so impressed by what Jesus had said, and told her about her past, that she immediately went back to the town and invite everyone, and anyone that would listen to her, to come back with her to meet Jesus. Jesus love those people in the village, of Samaria, so much that He spend two full days with them. Can you imagine the sermons, the fulfilment of prophecy, that Jesus spoke to them in those two days (John 4:43). Because Jesus used a more humanitarian approach, the scripture tells us the result in John 4:41, "many more believed because of his own word". And the townspeople told the woman, "Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (verse 42)" Jesus prophesied to them, and showed them His character at the same time.
Second story, the story of a short stature of a man, Zacchaeus, but known as a rich man in his community, Luke 19:1-26. Luke describes him as "the chief of publicans", or the worst of the worst. Jesus could have told Zacchaeus, "I know what you have done. How you have robbed and stolen from people, in the name of doing your job." But instead Jesus saw Zacchaeus in the tree, before anyone else did, and told him to come down, that He (the Great "I Am") would be going to his house today. Jesus not only use that moment to talk to Zacchaeus, but also to show His character to many others, believers and critics alike. Jesus showed them all a part of His character that He hopes that we will continue to illustrate today, that we are to love the sinner, and to show genuine love and support to them. As a result of Jesus love and care toward him, Zacchaeus repaid everyone he stole from four-time the amount he took from them. Jesus spoke to Zacchaeus in a way that spoke to his heart, and demands a respond of repentance. Also, I would like to imagine that Zacchaeus did not stop there, but that he continue to give to the "least of these" for the rest of his life.
I hope my two illustrations show that we can share the Bible truths with our communities and show the character of Jesus all at the same time. I hope to one day start a Family foundation, as God leads me, so that I can do both, primarily purpose - to meet the needs of the "least of these", then I plan to share God's word to all of them. We can do both with the leading of God's Holy Spirit.
Thanks for your thoughts Eli.
I would be interested in how you would explain what you have outlined using an alternative analogy that I would propose more closely parallels the human situation and the reality of salvation.
Let's say that instead of coming across someone in a burning building, I come across someone who has terminal cancer. How would that scenario play out?
Hey Phil,
Let me answer you with some questions. (There is a point when an inductive method is better than explaining. It may help you find the answer yourself to your specific question from answering the next questions, because the issue is deeper).
-What is the three angels message to you?
-What does the three angels message means to you?
-How do you see the three angels message?
-Is the Jesus of the gospels de same Jesus in the “Revelation of Jesus Christ”? ..or it is another person?
-Could it be that for the most there are all kinds of distortions and misunderstandings of the “real” three angels message from the “abuse” of mis-proclaiming it in the past?
🙂
Hi Eli
The 3 Angels messages to me is God offering yet another opportunity at a given point in history to take a 'reality-check' that, whether I realise it or not, (a) my daily life exists within a bigger context (of the inherently time-limited Great Controversy over which way of living is true/abundant life and which way is a terminal condition) and therefore (b) how I am living my daily life is taking me in an eternal direction as either a member of the Kingdom of God (which will exist eternally) or as a member of the Kingdom of Darkness (which will pass-away). And because I don't live in isolation from others, how I live my daily life is having an influence on the lives of others - for better or for worse.
If I live a life of self-seeking, this will inherently place me on the path of non-life/perishing because self-seeking is a principle that is out of harmony with how true/abundant life operates and is therefore by default the mechanism of self-destruction (Rm 8:13, 1 Jn 2:15-17). And it will also negatively impact the lives of others around me.
Conversely, if (through drawing on and 'working-out' the strength that the indwelling, empowering Holy Spirit gives me) I live a life of self-renouncing love, this will inherently place me on the path of true/abundant/eternal life - because that's how life viably works (Rm 8:13, 1 Jn 2:10). And that will also impact the lives of others around me: hence Jesus metaphors of salt and light.
Yes, I believe the Jesus of the gospels is the same Jesus in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The same as I believe that the way I live my day-to-day life and 'salvation' are one in the same thing.
My dear brother Eli,
What I think? Next week's lesson will open all of our eyes to the Three Angels' Messages in verity.
Your brother in Christ,
Richard
Hi Brethen! All of you have good points about the 3 angels messages, prophecy in general, and Christian character development. All of these things are included in the Gospel command given to us by Jesus himself, in Matthew 28:18-20. We are to "go ye therefore and teach all nations", which is part of making disciples, sharing the Word of God and developing Christian characters.
Also, Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a WITNESS unto all nations; and then shall the end come." People that we share the 3 Angels messages must have an opportunity to "witness" the developing Christian character in us.
I love the 3 Angels message; I learn something new every time I study those passage in Revelation 14:6-12. However, I too fear that we put a lot of emphasis on spreading the Gospel, and less emphasis on the "least of these". It is my firm belief that Jesus wants us to find ways to do them both. ADRA is a wonderful organization, but it should not take the place of our personal actions to helping the "least of these", whereby we can show our community what the character of Jesus is all about.
What happened to our Dorcas societies? I remember when I first converted to SDA about 35 years ago, I show them tirelessly working in the church, in the community, dressed in their white, or black, uniforms. Not only were they recognized in the church, but the community knew them as well. Today, most of the communities around our churches do not know us. What happened to us?
I pray that God show us how to rectify this problems, and how we can show genuine love and support to the "least of these" in our communities; not for show or recognition, but to show the love of Jesus, which is the true character of Jesus. God bless you all!!
Why did Paul write about giving at all? What was he collecting money for? Paul was raising money to help the Christians in Jerusalem, who were very poor.
True Christian generosity can’t be measured by how much one has to give. Often those who have less are more generous with what they have because they know what it it s to live in poverty.
If we really give ourselves to the Lord, then the right kind of material giving will naturally follow.
The Corinthian Christians may have intended to give. They may have thought about giving. They may have been favorable to the idea of giving. Yet all of this was useless unless they did in fact complete this grace. Our intentions, vows, and resolutions are useless without action. It was time for the Corinthian Christians to act.
Our giving should be like God’s giving of grace to us: giving freely, generously, because we want to give. When God gives to us out of grace, the motive for His giving is in Him, not based in the one who receives. That is how we should give – because the motive of the love and generosity of God is so big in our heart that we simply must give.
Our giving, like God’s grace to us, should be offered without expectation of payment in return. God does not give to us expecting “payback.” We can never repay God. We can just serve Him and love Him in return.
We give, we take. We share, we keep. The great thing about donation is the intangible getting back! Nothing truly belongs to us. We are only granted some time here! Meaning can totally change according to where our counsciousness stands!
“Barking dogs, never bite”. Or “Thunder and cloud, but not rain”
I find fascinated that a very high percentage of Christians who actually do the work on helping out others, don’t talk about it. They just do it.
On the other hand we find Christians always giving suggestions and commenting, on why, on what, and how we should be helping others, yet, in reality and honesty before God, they do little or nothing about it ... just talking with intelectual and sophisticated words regarding the issue.
“ yet, in reality and honesty before God, they do little or nothing about it ..” could this be barking with a different angle? Maybe it won’t come back and bite us, but it may hinder Christ drawing, possibly extinguish Christ subjects. The way to avoid being bitten by our own barking, is to: care for our fellow believers genuinely, even with coin, as the Lord has blessed us. We must not forget this is walking with God.
Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive. He knows our nature too well to entrust this work to us. Should we try to uproot from the church those whom we suppose to be spurious Christians, we should be sure to make mistakes. Often we regard as hopeless subjects the very ones whom Christ is drawing to Himself. Were we to deal with these souls according to our imperfect judgment, it would perhaps extinguish their last hope. Many who think themselves Christians will at last be found wanting. Many will be in heaven who their neighbors supposed would never enter there. Man judges from appearance, but God judges the heart. The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. COL 71.3
John,
So many times happens that when we express without the “politically correctness mask” something we found raising brows, and touches someone’s sensitivity, then we got judged of judging .... In other words, we are told: “I’m judging you not to judge” ... Go figure 🙂
The “barking” (thunder and cloud and no rain) it’s a Biblical “principle”. Jesus (and Paul) addressed such: the hypocrisy, the pretending to be “holy”, the cymbal and noise... etc
When I became a SDA, unintentionally I began to discover some saints helping others in the “secret” ...as well in the open, yet, they themselves never talk about it. I took it as that’s the way in my new church and follow to copy (in my precious church you “broadcast” your good deeds)
About a year later or so, I began to notice a pattern. In meetings, or Sabbath School classes, or at putlock, many type of people began commenting with very intellectual, sophisticated and pious words, on how, what and why to help the needy, yet, they never show up to do the actual work. There was always an excuse. It happens soooooo many times.
A couple of years later, I met this retired pastor and told him about it. He told me: “In my many years in the church, I can testify of what you are saying is correct, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is just a fact”
(I’m paraphrasing what this retired pastor told me because I don’t remember the exact words, but I do remember the message and the meaning of what he told me)
So... there you have it. If it seems to you I’m barking with a different angle by expressing the above, then, yes, I deserve your judgment, not to judge others 🙂
Your right Eli, we do need to put into practice our love for Christ and keep into the forefront Christ Second coming. Keep up the good work. I hope no one con strews ‘good work’ as working for our salvation, it is simply working for the One we love. I do enjoy reading your posts, and many others. 😀
"They will know we are Christians by our Love!"
That song has a powerfull message.
In today's lesson, Paul urges us the believers to generosity and in caring for our fellow believers in difficult circumstances. Paul also urges his readers to be intentional about giving.
What is intentional giving?
It is: deliberate, calculated, done on purpose, preplanned, thought out in advance, prearranged, and predetermined giving.
"It was not necessary to urge them to give; rather, they rejoiced in the privilege of denying themselves even of necessary things in order to supply the needs of others. 2 Cor. 8:7. (The Acts of the Apostles, pp. 343, 344).
Giving not only supplies the physical needs of the receiver but in giving we share God's character with them.
“The world’s policy is to acquire money and advantages in anyway that they can be obtained. The accumulation of this world‘s treasure is the ambition of worldlings. The aim and object of the followers of our Lord Jesus Christ is to become Christlike by self-denial and self-sacrifice. They keep their eyes on the eternal riches which they can obtain by renouncing earthly treasure for heavenly treasure....It is more blessed to give than to receive (Acts 20:35). Self-denial will bring into the treasury of God that means necessary to advance His work. Thus we may act in copartnership with Christ.” (In Heavenly Places, p.300.)
What's then the principle of giving?
Maurice, you made much clear my point when above I mentioned:
“The challenge is how the SDA have been “preaching the three angels messages”, which most SDAs are “tired” of it and don’t want to hear about it anymore”.
Thank you for using examples to make it clearer. I’m glad you are old enough to help out expanding on what I said.
Regarding the world “fire”. It is very clear that it is an analogy. Very clear I’m using a “storytelling” format to present the issue. It is about the urgency, which it clear the point. Absolutely nothing to do with languages issue, but with the urgency issue.
Regarding shouting loud. Here again is a figurative wording. Isn’t precisely that what Rev 14:7 began with? “Saying with a loud voice....”
Regarding loving everyone (even our enemies) as per your post on replying to my comment. Here is a typical case when is either “Love” or “Justice”. Extremely hard to see them as “One”.
There is no insinuation or implying in my posts about pushing aside love. The opposite is true as you find reading them again.
Properly proclaimed, the three angels message is a message full of love ...as well as a message full of justice.
Isn’t the Jesus of the four gospels, the same Jesus of Revelation? Or is it the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” another complete person than the Jesus in the gospels? ...And the rest of the Bible?
Very sad we are so distracted on one side of the coin: “love, love, love, self-renouncing love” ... and not be able to grasp that love and justice kissing each other As One.
Jesus is coming soon, but we have been desensitized from all false alarms and wrong ways of previously presenting the three angels message to the word, that now such message is being push aside and even ignored, precisely what Satan wants ...And time is running out fast.
(The Jeremiah -and other prophets- “syndrome”)
"Very sad we are so distracted on one side of the coin: “love, love, love, self-renouncing love” ... and not be able to grasp that love and justice kissing each other As One."
Hi Eli. You have made reference to what you see as over-promoting one side of the coin to the exclusion of the other a couple of times now, so I will respond to it.
Unfortunately you are mistaken in assuming that because I promote self-renouncing love so strongly, I am only promoting "one side of the coin" to the exclusion of the other. I absolutely believe that God is a God of justice BUT the kind of justice that I find God to be about is very different to the kind of justice most typically ascribed to Him.
Before I explain further where I am coming from, I would ask you how you define or describe God's justice - so I don't make a wrong assumption about your view of justice.
Hey Phil bro 🙂
This issue is a deeper one and will not make “justice” (pun intended) trying to bring the whole picture here. I’ll do my best to condense it with points….
Before I start, I’ll bring a couple of “pre-points”:
-As I sat to type this, it occurred to me that you may not be a Seventh-day Adventist. In that case, it makes perfect sense your great emphasis on the “self-renouncing love” and you “reluctancy” to read the EGW books as I sensed in a previous chat with you regarding The Desire of Ages 🙂 I may be wrong, and you indeed are a SDA. But since this is a SDA forum, I’ll continue assuming you indeed are a SDA 👍
-Remember: Perception is Reality -regardless if the source of the “perception” is true or false. It is on both: in a conscious and in conscious level. (Just a quick example of that powerful fact in a minor scale.
People watch movies and even when they know it is a made up play, if there is a scene of intense, people pulses and heart beats faster reacting to it , and deep breathing along. Same if there is a “touching” movie: sniffing and crying ..and they are not even aware the moment when the perception to reality started. It is a physiological, and mental/emotional reaction). Please keep that in mind when reading below -specially regarding the love part/section.
Now, to the points:
-You will be surprised when I tell you this: because “God’s love” there is justice. I mean, before there was such thing as justice, there was “God’s love” it is “God’s love” and will be “God’s love. (Please notice that I have quotations embracing “God’s love” Im doing it purposely to make a point later).
-Justice came into existence because of sin. Justice didn’t existed before sin. Justice is God’s master mind plan to deal with sin. The plan of salvation can be said in one word: Justice. But before continuing with Justice, I want to bring up “Love”.
-“God’s love” is NOT what we human think it is. That’s why I put “God’s love” in quotations.
-Love for us 99% of humans is a feeling (and in English language also includes, an attraction, an inclination: e.g. I love that smell. I love ice cream).
-Many even confused hate with love. Very common to find people killing because of love.
-Love is a romantic, erotic and passion, butterfly good feeling.
-Many divorces, family abuses and so on, because the result of love.
-Oppression and violence in the name of the “Love for the Cause” … whatever that “cause” is.
-I found that back in the 60s there was a huge turmoil on this planet. Millions reacted as the solution to the turmoil was: Love. A song by The Beatles: “Love, love, love, all you need is love”. In the USA was a three days festival dedicate to “Peace and Love”… the list is long trying to bring the “human love” as the solution.
I can keep on, but the point is simple. Love for a human is a feeling. Depending of who that person is, and under what situation, so the expression of their love, but the bottom line is: love is a feeling. Feelings goes up and down. Feelings do not last. Do not trust feelings but your guts. etc, etc.
-(Keep remembering: perception is reality) Telling someone that God loves him/her, that person’s perceives a Feeling. Under the human understanding and practice of love, hearing that God loves them, doesn’t make “justice” -pun intended again 🙂 because in reality that’s not God’s love.
-Renouncing. Asking anyone what they understand with renouncing, you will get the the right answer: To give up and no longer in possession of the renounced object.
-Self-renouncing: given up the object on own decision.
-Self-renouncing love: Give up the love and no longer possessing it. No love, empty of love.
-God’s self-renouncing love: God gives up His love and no longer has it.
-Keep in mind -perception is reality at the conscious and unconscious level. Same as the when we talk to someone; we communicate much more in the unconscious level with face expressions, body language and voice intonation, than the actual words from our mouth.
-What are we actually trying to communicate and what does the person perceives when we tell them: “God loves you with a self-renouncing love”? Think about it.
Now….
-In an effort to make “God’s love” above human’s love, the Agape love comes as “God’s love”, yet….
-Agape love still short. As they say, you graduate from one type of love to the other until reaching the highest which is Agape. The animal and lower is the Erotic love. Then you mature and ready for the Philio love, and then the highest which is Agape love… supposedly, God’s type of love.
-Agape love, the human -Christian- attempt to define and qualify “God’s love”, is a fable attempt, because God’s love is a principle as portrait in the Bible, yet, I know for sure that the “principle” still is way short, because as 1 John 4:8 say, God is Love, and God is eternal therefore, God’s love is bigger, deeper. wider than eternity itself …and it is NOT a feeling.
-The “once saved always saved” doctrine is base on the Agape love (the higher feeling of love) and if Gods love is eternal, means that doesn’t matter what I do, He always will have this eternal feeling of love toward me. Thats exactly what I heard of many Evangelical friends.
I can keep on regarding “love” But already this is a long post. Let’s go back to “Justice”
-As I said, Justice is one word for the Plan of Salvation, which is clearly “pictured in the Sanctuary”. The fact that Jesus died proves without a doubt that justice is how God deals with sin.
-Since we are in the battle of sin, it is of crucial importance to understand how God is dealing with sin: Justice
-Justice is the other side of the “True God’s Love” when dealing with sin.
-Justice then has two sides too (I don’t know how to explain it since Justice is the other side of the love coin, I’m this analogy of coins 🙂 Maybe better saying, the Justice side of the coin has two parts: Liberation/Freedom and Punishment.
-Again, Justice has two: Liberation/Freedom and Punishment.
-I think that the Punishment part is what scares you Phil. Yet, if Jesus died (the wages of sin is dead) as He became sin for us, then, the punishment we deserve, he took it for us. And that act, makes us free. Liberated!
-Even in our ill judicial system, the above is true.
-Telling someone who is with terminal cancer: “God loves you with a self-renouncing love” do not much because the person will not #1) grasp the real meaning of “God’s love” and #2) his/her hope of salvation is not established at all, simple because the justice part is not brought up.
-People wants the assurance of salvation, rather than the human feeling perception of God’s love. Offering someone with terminal cancer to choose between the complete assurance of salvation and the “up and down feeling” of God’s love, they will choose the assurance of salvation. They can died in peace if that will be the case. They will know for sure they will be resurrected to eternal life
-The only way to present the assurance of salvation is to present the WHOLE package: Justice and Love as One.
-Attempting to bring up only an “ill human perception of love” to a suffering one, is kind of cruel. It is an attempt of “half true”. Yes, very cruel. Presenting half true is what Satan did when tempting Jesus, when quoting half of the scripture part, that he (Satan) used.
-Many think that the Punishment part is actually God’s presence so holy, that anything unholy is self-destroyed. Then, how come that when Jesus died was not because God’s holy presence, but the opposite took place: the Separation of the Father? Thats why Jesus cried out: “My Father, my Father, why have you left me?”
-On the same track: What about the flood? ...Sodom and Gomorrah? ...The armies in the Bible killed by God? ...The only 400 Waldenses against many thousands, and not one single of the Waldenses died and they won the battle?, etc, etc. Very clear: punishment, and liberation …because of love!
-When Justice is brought up, then the Real and True Love of God shines, is beautiful, attractive, irresistible, powerful .... Only Justice, doesn’t do it. Only Love doesn’t do it either.
Phil, I can keep on with, but this is extremely long already. I hope it gives you an idea of why I see that focusing just on “love, love, self-renouncing love” not only is not accured, but dangerous and cruel.
I also wanted to bring up what happen when focusing on the other end: Justice; but with the emphasis on Punishment. So, I will do it with only two points to end this loooooong post 🙂
-I grew up on the Punishment emphasis (former Catholic; lents, penitences, purgatory, etc, etc) Then, I learned about God’s love (the human perspective) and that didn’t work. It was when I studied the sanctuary that I understood the whole thing. That’s when I saw love/mercy kissing justice (punishment/liberation) that’s when I understood the danger of making emphasis on only one side, either love or justice
-Atheist are on the: “If God is so good, why He then pleasures into eternal punishment? If God is so good why He doesn’t stop evil? If God is so good, why He didn’t eliminate Satan at the very beginning? …That’s because God enjoys seeing us suffering! I want nothing to do with such God!
I most stop here, Phil.
Phil, I wish I could keep this conversation with you. Tomorrow Friday is my last “easy-days/half vacation” day, which allowed me to type and post here few times in the last days. I’m going back to normal, and the only time to post will be some Sabbath/Saturday afternoons. No this coming Saturday- all booked up already. So, if you post/replying to this my post, or ask me more questions, it will take, one or two weeks for me to reply back.
Blessings to you my brother.
🙂
Thank you for your response Eli that enables me to better understand where you are coming from.
I won't ask any further questions or make any further comments at this point given your time schedule, however our paths will no doubt meet on ssnet from time to time where we can discuss these matters again as they are recurring topics/issues.
God bless you too brother till then.
Another important thing to note here is that God does not only give us to feed our stomachs but to share with others too.
Paul right after his conversion, decided to take the message of salvation to the gentiles, sharing what he had received (gospel) to others (gentiles) and in the process continued to urge others to also remember the poor and share what they had with them. However, his acts of sharing the gospel prompted questions amongst church leaders who were concerned about the persons that were added to the church as a result of Paul’s decision to share the message to the gentiles but through God’s guidance, they came to a good agreement and the church continued to flourish.
Points:
1. Giving is an intentional act of offering what you have to others. It is intentional because it involves a decision, a conscious effort to help others and add value to the life of others. Paul took that decision to share the gospel to those who needed it (the gentiles) and it yielded beautiful fruits. It is therefore important to imbibe that culture of not giving with heavy minds and ill-thoughts or being under compulsion. We can make a plan and map out some portion out of earnings to give to the needy/poor around us. This also helps to make giving not to be seen as a burden to us.
2. Sharing must not come out of your abundance. The child with the 5 loaves of bread and two fishes gave his all but in the end, those little portions fed thousands.
3. There are varieties of things that we can give/share, these include our time, money, words of comfort, service etc. So, we should not narrow down giving to material things. If you don’t have money, the time you spend with that brother in need of comfort is really important and will make a difference in his life.
4. Sharing by definition has to do with splitting resources with others. Invariably, the common factor becomes the item shared, thereby creating a bond or connection between the giver and the receiver/ between the two users. As Christians, sharing can help us connect better with those in need, which is important in the fulfillment of our mission statement in Matthew 28: 20
Bro Keith,
Ecc 3:1-8, there is time for different things. A time and circumstances to say things as it should be.
Those examples you presented are beautiful done by our Master. The right time for how He deal with, with the words He used for it, under the appropriate circumstances. Keith, I understand your point clearly.
Yet.... (hopefully you will see this clearly too)
The same Jesus said “You hypocrite...” Matt 23:23. “You snakes, sons of vipers” see Matt 23:33. “You, children of Satan” -see John 8:44. To Peter he said, “get away from me Satan” ... and more instances Jesus was direct -no politically correctness, no soothing words, but right at front.
🙂
(Side note: This is my last post commenting frequently. My “easy days -semi vacation” allowing me to post, are ending today 😒😢 ...But perhaps some Sabbath afternoons I can post. Blessing to all of you 🤗 )
Hi Brother Eli. Yes, you are 100% correct, timing is everything!! This is why we need God's Holy Spirit to direct us to that perfect timing in sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ and serving the "least of these". May we all pray for God's Holy Spirit daily.
(Side note: It's Sister Keith. Back many years ago, I got my first job out of college based on my resume (college hire program). The manager thought I was a man, until I arrived on my first day of work. That was funny.)
Don't work too hard, and Peace be with you My Brother.
Hi Toni. Appreciate the confusion. I have a daughter with the same name and there have been several rather humours incidents (embarrassing for the other person) where people have assumed that she must be male. She is an optometrist and a number of patients have been a bit worried when "the secretary" started work on them. Fortunately Toni is a woman of good humour and puts them at their ease, even when they expect an older male optometrist.