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Sunday: The Harlot Babylon — 40 Comments

  1. It needs to be said that it is more important to identify the characteristics of Babylon than identify a specific power. We should ask ourselves what are the characteristics of the power that attacks the true believers (and by inference, we need to understand the characteristics of the true believers even more).

    The main characteristics are the use of coercion and deception to force people to worship or live according to their belief and to demand loyalty. These identified the papacy as the persecuting power through the dark ages, and if the papacy resurges it will again be included in the Babylonian union.

    We currently live in a world where most of us have religious freedom and can worship according to our own conscience but that freedom is under continuous threat from a variety of sources, most of them secular. We need to be clear about a couple of things. Currently, the papacy has little credibility, the world is wondering about Catholicism, not in the sense that it is all powerful but asking the question of how it can survive at all. The recent issues relating to the sexual abuse of minors and the hierarchical coverup has rocked the Catholic church to its very foundations. Not to mention the financial issues within the church hierarchy as well. The church was in decline before all this happened. In my short lifetime, I have seen the worldwide decline in the Catholic church. Its seminaries and convents have closed. In Australia, the Seventh-day Adventist Church graduated more ministers each year than the Catholic church graduates priests. A few years ago, I was in St Peter's Bascillica on a Sunday. Surprisingly, it was tourism as usual. We wandered through the packed church at leisure. It was packed with tourists and I specifically looked to see any sign of worship. Eventually, I found a little elderly nun praying in a side chapel.

    I mention all this, not to deny that there will be a resurgence of Catholicism, but to ensure that we are aware that we currently have freedoms and opportunities that were not there even 100 years ago. Catholicism may well resurge into the persecuting, deceptive power that it was during the dark ages, but for the time being, we have an unprecedented opportunity to share the love of Jesus, particularly with our Catholic brothers and sisters who have lost their faith in the papacy. We have much to offer them (and it is much more than just a change in worship day)

    As I have mentioned previously, I expect a self-centered persecuting antichrist movement in the final crisis. It will be unified in purpose and directed against those who worship the true God. It may not be unified within itself. The Papal kingdoms and principalities in the dark ages may have been all Catholic but they fought and persecuted one another just as much as they persecuted true believers. That is likely to be the scenario in the last days.

    Finally, whatever form Babylon takes in the last great conflict it will be attractive and beguiling. It is no accident that the imagery of a whore is used to depict Babylon. She will present an image that is so fundamentally attractive that only those who have a saving relationship with Jesus will be able to resist. Preparation for that temptation is more than claiming that we know who Babylon is, or worse, claiming that the church knows who it is without studying for ourselves. True preparation is about growing a relationship with Jesus that is so strong we are not deceived by the attraction of the harlot.

    This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus. Rev 14:12 NLT

    (38)
    • There is something EG White warned about: Rewriting the Adventist interpretation of prophecy on Papacy. "It is the constant effort of the enemy to remove these truths from their setting, and to put in their place spurious theories. He will bring in everything that he possibly can to carry out his deceptive designs. But the Lord will raise up men of keen perception, who will give these truths their proper place in the plan of God." She states in Selected messages book 1 pg 201.

      Later in the same chapter, she writes "The fundamental principles [LIKE WHO THE HARLOT IS] that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure." Pgs 204,205.

      The whole chapter is very insightful actually on the issue of re-interpreting prophecies, if one can find time and read through.

      I'm just stating that your comment had alarm bells ringing in my head, on what you exactly meant by a 'self-centered persecuting Antichrist movement'.

      (15)
      • William, I am not trying to rewrite the Adventist interpretation of history. Our pioneers laid down some pretty strong principles. One of them was to study for ourselves. And that is what I am attempting to do. The issue is that we all too easily rest on the work of our pioneers rather than seeking an understanding in our day and our time. They did not live in our time, and we should look at our time using their principles of understanding.

        If we are totally focussed on a resurgent Roman Catholic Church which is not resurging at the moment, we are missing two things:

        We are missing an opportunity to witness to those Catholic Christians who feel disenfranchised by their church leadership. Now is the time to share Jesus with those who have "been called out of Babylon".

        The harlot we are currently facing is one of social pressure and public opinion. In some respects, these are worse than outright persecution because they are so beguiling. They take away our freedom to worship in much more subtle, but very effective ways right now. One only has to witness some of the antichristian propaganda in the media. Public opinion may not torture people with the flames of martyrdom but witness the effect of public opinion on anyone who does not fit the popular model. I lived through the Azaria Chamberlain era here in Australia and witnessed the effect of public opinion about Seventh-day Adventists that even today some 30 years later still has its effects on the church.

        Both of these are "Babylon" related issues that affect us now. I am not saying that the Catholic Church will not resurge. It may well do that on the back of a fickle public opinion. We have seen strange things happen politically in the last few years and I am acutely aware of how quickly things can change. My concern is that we open our eyes and use our spiritual peripheral vision. That is what our pioneers did.

        (30)
        • I note that Ellen White also wrote the following:

          There is need of a much closer study of the Word of God; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before in the history of our work. We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the Papacy, but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has so shaped matters, both in the giving of the prophecy, and in the events portrayed, as to teach that the human agent is to be kept out of sight, hid in Christ, and the Lord God of heaven and His law are to be exalted.—Counsels to Editors, pp. 45, 46. (1896)Evangelism, page 577.

          Did you get that? "We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the Papacy." not more.

          Perhaps we should examine our own hearts and ask God to reveal to us whether the spirit of the papacy and Babylon has gained entrance there - the spirit of deception, the spirit of the love of power and control.

          Is it possible that we may be exercising a spirit of control in our own sphere of influence, for instance?

          It has sometimes looked like some high-placed individuals in the Seventh-day Adventist Church were intent on developing an "image to the beast" in their determination to control the thoughts and practices of other believers who disagreed with them on issues that are not any of the foundational teachings on which this church is built.

          I conclude that at this point in time we may have more to fear from Babylon within our hearts and our church than from Babylon outside our church.

          I also see that Ellen White urged "closer study" especially of Daniel and the Revelation 29 years after Uriah Smith's book was published in 1867. This seems to suggest that we should not rely on that book for our answers but should "do much closer study" especially of Daniel and Revelation, as well as the rest of Scripture.

          (24)
        • Thanks brother for the clarification, sorry for my late reply! The Spirit of Prophecy has a very telling statement:

          "The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christlike garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High.

          The papacy is just what prophecy declared that she would be, the apostasy of the latter times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. “Faith ought not to be kept with heretics, nor persons suspected of heresy” (Lenfant, volume 1, page 516), she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ?

          It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers." Great Controversy 571

          (3)
      • Dear William,

        I trust you know that Ellen White referred us to the Bible as our authority in belief and practice. She discouraged the use of her writings as authority. When a young man studied his Bible and came to conclusions differing from her published writings, he wrote to her and asked her whether he should stop that line of study. She said, No, but continue to study and ask the Spirit to guide you.

        Ellen had some particularly hard things to say to those who used her writings to buttress their own opinions. (Using Ellen White, rather than the Bible, as authority is also against our Posting Guide Lines.)

        You wrote,

        There is something EG White warned about: Rewriting the Adventist interpretation of prophecy on Papacy. "It is the constant effort of the enemy to remove these truths...

        and

        Later in the same chapter, she writes "The fundamental principles [LIKE WHO THE HARLOT IS] that have sustained the work for the last fifty years ...

        I don't see anything like this in the section of Ellen's writings that you referenced. Rather, Ellen White is very specifically addressing the errors in The Living Temple, by J.H. Kellogg. Her remarks have nothing to do with interpretations of prophecy or the Roman Catholic Church, since Kellogg's book did not deal with those.

        Let our readers judge for themselves, reading the section entitled, "A View of Approaching Danger," in 1 Selected Messages. I am going to provide the full section, and that will necessarily make this comment longer than comments should normally be. Readers can also click on the link and see it for themselves at EGWWritings.org.

        About the time that Living Temple was published, there passed before me in the night season, representations indicating that some danger was approaching, and that I must prepare for it by writing out the things God had revealed to me regarding the foundation principles of our faith. A copy of Living Temple was sent me, but it remained in my library, unread. From the light given me by the Lord, I knew that some of the sentiments advocated in the book did not bear the endorsement of God, and that they were a snare that the enemy had prepared for the last days. I thought that this would surely be discerned, and that it would not be necessary for me to say anything about it. {1SM 202.3}
        In the controversy that arose among our brethren regarding the teachings of this book, those in favor of giving it a wide circulation declared: “It contains the very sentiments that Sister White has been teaching.” This assertion struck right to my heart. I felt heartbroken; for I knew that this representation of the matter was not true. {1SM 203.1}
        Finally my son said to me, “Mother, you ought to read at least some parts of the book, that you may see whether they are in harmony with the light that God has given you.” He sat down beside me, and together we read the preface, and most of the first chapter, and also paragraphs in other chapters. As we read, I recognized the very sentiments against which I had been bidden to speak in warning during the early days of my public labors. When I first left the State of Maine, it was to go through Vermont and Massachusetts, to bear a testimony against these sentiments. Living Temple contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and personality of God. The statements made in Living Temple in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied. {1SM 203.2}
        I am compelled to speak in denial of the claim that the teachings of Living Temple can be sustained by statements from my writings. There may be in this book expressions and sentiments that are in harmony with my writings. And there may be in my writings many statements which, taken from their connection, and interpreted according to the mind of the writer of Living Temple, would seem to be in harmony with the teachings of this book. This may give apparent support to the assertion that the sentiments in Living Temple are in harmony with my writings. But God forbid that this sentiment should prevail. {1SM 203.3}
        Few can discern the result of entertaining the sophistries advocated by some at this time. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me the result that would follow. The spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experience, giving them instead a false science. {1SM 203.4}
        In a vision of the night I was shown distinctly that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers—the truths of the Word of God. Someone high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, “Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action.” {1SM 204.1}
        The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}
        Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1}
        I hesitated and delayed about the sending out of that which the Spirit of the Lord impelled me to write. I did not want to be compelled to present the misleading influence of these sophistries. But in the providence of God, the errors that have been coming in must be met. {1SM 205.2}

        (14)
        • Inge, I appreciate your astute and kind clarification about EGW's comments and how we should approach her writings, and the need to keep all things in context of what she was writing about.

          You are aware of her comments in the Battle Creek library where she said "don't quote sister White, until you make the bible your matter." It is counsel that I want to live by and strive to seek understanding through.

          (1)
      • Alarm bells are a sign to check something out. So, it is good that you are checking something out. Thank you for raising your concerns and for outlining your basis for these concerns.

        So let's look at the quote from 1SM 201. What are "spurious theories"? Dictionary definitions of the term "spurious" are consistent in their portrayal of it as "outwardly similar or corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities." (Miriam Webster Dictionary)

        If we consider then what "spurious theories" are, we can see that what Maurice is proposing for consideration are interpretations that possess the genuine qualities of Babylon. Hence, they are infact opposite to "spurious".

        Therefore, there is not advocating for a rewriting of interpretation, but rather a broadening of interpretation based on identification of the underpinning genuine qualities.

        The same Selected Messages quote also states "He (Satan) will bring in everything that he possibly can to carry out his deceptive designs."

        What are Satan's deceptive designs? Gen 3:4,5 would have to rate as a succinct summary of such. What is contained in these passages? Satan is deceptively proposing that self-exaltation/seeking (via self-indulgence/gratification) will not lead to death as God had warned (Gen 2:17), but that it would actually result in a superior form of life (essentially deceptively portraying his counterfeit version of 'abundant life': Jn 10:10).

        As I outlined yesterday, self-exaltation has been biblically hilighted throughout history as the core quality of Babylon since its inception. Hence, as the SM quote states, Satan will present this deceptive design in as many 'flavours' as possible.

        Could it be that the papal phenomenon is but one flavour? Could the rampant materialism that has overtaken the 'developed' world and is fast making inroads into the 'third-world' be another? Numerically, more people are 'selling out their souls' to the self-exaltation/seeking of intoxicating materialism than are rushing to be part of the papal church - at this point in time anyway.

        By all means we should certainly pay attention to alarm bells - and then we should check out whether those bells are a true or false alarm (2 Tim 2:15).

        So, what do you find when you investigate those alarm bells more deeply (as per Acts 17:11, Rom 14:5)?

        (14)
        • Thanks for your comment, Papacy has not changed a little jot, as Great Controversy chapter 35 states.

          Now, the biggest challenge that seems to be cropping up is merging of the two themes which cut across scriptures: God has a church, but He saves individuals. Revelation 17 condemns a system and all who ally themselves with it; this in no way negates our/their (those deemed to be within spiritual Babylon) individual responsibility for our own salvation, neither does it diminish our responsibility to call out the system for what it is. (Revelation 18; Revelation 14:6-12).

          Revelation 17 is dealing with what the system did. The system draws its power from the dragon, used the beast in the middle ages, and will work through the image of the beast at the end times.

          Revelation does not simply deal with the great controversy between good and evil, but personal salvation is dealt with, by stating that those who overcome have certain very clear characteristics (Rev 14:1-5, and Rev 15:1-4 gives us a glimpse of their reward). In Rev 16:15 is a classic example of Christ's interest in our personal salvation, even as He is dealing with the big theme of the system. That's why He pauses and adds a critical mention of personal preparation required.

          Apologies for late reply!

          (4)
    • We are fully aware of the Papal system we are warned about but not the people of that system. We get it that we live in a time of freedom before events may unfold the last events as described in Revelation 13 where we understood that the 1st beast was the Papal Rome and USA Protestants being the 2nd beast who will be responsible to coerce and deceive the world. I'm seeing more attempts at reinterpreting who are these powers based on new views of today. I understand the focus was more on the characteristics of these powers which in contrast to Jesus's character. There are some views intending to point out that Papal Rome has loose her power on the mass due to various reasons as pointed, thus, Papal Rome would not have much influence in the end time events. However, we know that the 2nd beast (USA Protestants) will have more influence on the world in the end time compared to the 1st beast.

      Consider this in Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
      12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
      13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
      14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

      According to verse 12, it is 2nd beast that will cause the world to worship the Papal Rome. This beast according to verse 13 and 14, will do wonders byways of miracles to deceive the world. We are told that miracles are the mean of how this can be done and today we are seeing more movies made around stories of miracles. We are seeing more miracles performed around the world in high-speed frequencies preparing the world for a final deception.

      It is very true as SDAs, we all can have the characteristic of these Powers where we use coercion and fear to win others to Christ where we preach if others don't accept the Sabbath truth today, they will experience the wrath of God without mixture during the end time events. Yes, we may preach truth but in the spirit of the enemy.

      Instead, of sharing the blessings of getting to know Jesus more on an intimate relationship every day of the week which makes the Sabbath much more of a blessing rather than the mundane routines. I often asked in our Sabbath School program, 'why we attend Sabbath worship' and so often as I expected many will say because it is the fourth commandment. However, mature Christians will see Sabbath more than a commandment. They see that Sabbath is the time to get to know more of the One they know who has their best interest in heart and by beholding Him (Jesus) at every occasion of Christian gatherings including the Sabbath, Jesus became more of their focus and by beholding Him (Jesus) they become more like Jesus.

      (11)
    • I do believe that Babylon is much more than thus the Catholic Church. We focus on the church because she is portrayed here as a woman. But she was first portrayed as a city (previous chapter) and will be portrayed as that in the next chapter. Babylon is a global system of false, human based power, politics and religion. The calling out of Babylon is not a calling out of the Catholic Church, but a calling out from the false world system. None of this discounts nor discredits Adventism's traditional views. It expands them.

      (6)
  2. "In the very end, as today, and as has always been the case, the masses of the people get it wrong..."
    What have we not witnessed lately even in our time in our CHURCH? Worldly pleasures smartly snaking into our CHURCH system! We dance in public and into our own pulpits...!!

    (5)
    • Josiah, while I understand your concern about worldly influence within the church, I am not sure about your specific example. After all, Miriam set an example:

      Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a tambourine and led all the women as they played their tambourines and danced. And Miriam sang this song:

      “Sing to the Lord,
      for he has triumphed gloriously;
      he has hurled both horse and rider
      into the sea.” Ex 15:20 NLT

      (9)
      • The order of worship is not dancing as what God instruct Moses when given him the plan of sanctuary ,Miriam dance for victory many people won't this text to support the idea of worship ,Josiah was referring right on the pulpit , this is some of the error we Adventist adapt and suit our comfort zone of worship , I believe we Adventist must done away with this style of worship were it base on how emotion and driff our mind away from gloryfyn our Creator,

        (4)
        • I understand what you are saying, but bear in mind that we currently follow a worship liturgy based very much on the form developed in the dark ages and carried on through the Reformation. That does not make it good or bad but if we follow it slavishly to the exclusion of any form of creativity, we are missing a wonderful blessing of worship.

          (3)
  3. Yes Mourice...

    Most of us know Romans 12:2, “Do not be conformed to the world.” The world will squeeze us. We can’t avoid that. But we don’t have to give in to the pressure.

    The Babylonian plan to transform the young men were:

    New Home ISOLATION

    New Knowledge INDOCTRINATION

    New Diet COMPROMISE

    New Names CONFUSION

    It’s a good plan because it evidently worked with some of the Jewish teenagers. But there were four (at least) who stood against the tide.

    (8)
  4. I have a question:
    Revelation 12 speaks of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet.
    Revelation 17 , however speaks of a woman seated on a scarlet beast.
    Are these two related in any way, did their paths cross, did one turn into the other somewhere through history?
    Please help!

    (4)
    • I’ll try. In Revelation 12, the woman represents the true church reflecting Jesus the Son of God. Similar to the moon reflecting the sun to the earth. So the harlot of Revelation 17 is not the woman of Revelation 12. The woman fled into the wilderness should give you another clue that the woman of Revelation 12 is the true church.

      (7)
      • So, John, at first there was one woman. The Apostolic woman. But somewhere between the Apostolic age and Revelation 17, that woman became 2, so they started out in the same spiritual condition.
        Some of those who comprised the woman(church) remained faithful to truth, but those who did not evolved to become the harlot of the end time!
        The woman who fled into the wilderness represented the former, the persecutors represented the latter.
        Thus I would have to conclude that One Woman became two!

        (5)
        • I get the gist of your good point. I would slightly reword what you have stated. It is rather the one woman is depicted at two different times in her history" going from true to apostate, as is what happened.

          (3)
    • Excellent question, Norma. I believe they do have a relationship. Due to our evangelism that has emphasized distinction of the women, and they are distinct, but not different women, we fail to see a narrative being told in Revelation about this relationship. Let me explain.

      First, we watch the story of this woman clothed in the sun and she is being pursued by the dragon over the centuries after she gives birth to Christ. The last place we see her is in the wilderness, upon which the dragon puts all of his energies into making war with the remnant of her Seed (the waters from his mouth is the misuse of God's Word, the water a representation of God's word, see Eph. 5:26, of which the devil is expert in twisting, Gen 3:1). Two things to note about the remnant: indeed the term represents the last part of a whole, or a time in the last days. Remnant also indicates an apostasy has taken place which is evident in many usages of it in the Old Testament. It is the remnant that is the focus in this last day setting of the church.

      Hence, the next time we see the woman in the wilderness is chapter 17, and thus why John is astonished. Instead of the red, seven headed, ten horned dragon chasing her, she is sitting upon a red, seven headed, ten horned beast. She is also mimicking the high priest (counterfeiting if you will) and dies the death of a daughter of a priest (burned with fire, see Lev 21:9). She is also presenting herself as the true "gate to God" (the root meaning of Babal "gate of god", where we get Babylon from) and counterfeits the gates of Jerusalem that are made of one pearl (she is clothed with pearls).

      To be clear, the woman of 12 during the time of the wilderness eventually changes. She becomes the woman of 17. They are the same woman but at two different times and having two different characters. The narrative is telling us that the great falling away (literally, the great apostacy) that Paul speaks of in 2 Thess. 2 has taken place. John is seeing in vision the product of the great apostacy in chapter 17. Thus, why he is shocked.

      This in no way ruins the SDA interpretation. It simply pulls two stories together for the fuller narrative for which it is intended to convey.

      (1)
  5. Josiah we can pray daily making God our number one. Then He has promised the power is there to resist the evil one. As Christ taught us to pray, “deliver us from evil”. I do believe Christ was saying deliver us from the evil one. And I believe He will make the squeeze feel like a soft sponge if we daily turn to Him. Put on your armor of God(the Bible), line it with graphene(the Holy Spirit).

    (1)
    • Hi John, Just curious why you mentioned graphene in connection with the Holy Spirit? I know what graphene is, and am well aware of its properties, but your use of "graphene" in connection with the Holy Spirit has piqued my interest.

      (2)
      • The Bible is our breast plate(‘bulletproof’ vest). The Holy Spirit Augments the Bible, as graphene will soon will augment the ’bulletproof’ vest. I do believe scientist have just overcome the problems of manufacturing graphene large enough to cover a vest(body armor). Why would you have your interest irritated?

        (1)
        • Sorry John, my interest wasn’t irritated, that is the wrong meaning altogether. My interest was aroused because you mentioned such an exotic substance that it outside the scope of most non-scientific readers. I happen to know what it is and found it interesting that you applied it here. I agree with you - it is a good illustration. For those of you who don’t know, graphene is a bit like the 2-dimensional version of carbon fibre, very strong and with useful electrical properties as well.

          (12)
  6. We must trust in what the Holy Bible tells us rather than current scientific or technical knowledge. God knows all and that is where our complete trust should be.

    (2)
  7. Intoxicated

    One of the major lies that the harot will make the world to be drunk of is the belief that the dead do not really die.

    Satan will use his angels to impersonate our dead friends and appear on us in dreams and visions.

    Will you believe them?

    Do you believe dead people are really dead and can't come back to earth?

    Why do we fear to pass through a grave yard at night alone?

    Why do we fear to go into the mortuary and view the dead bodies?
    If the dead are really dead?

    (3)
    • That "you positively will not die" is the first lie told to Eve, it is, indeed, ine of the many "spiritistic practices" Babylon the Great uses to indicate! Very astute! People don't want to die! It is not part of our make-up given by our Creator. But we do.... and, PREFER to believe lies that pacify the things we can't control. How important trust that the God of the Bible has this under control and reject false teachings and lies that have been told against Him! "Let you me be sanctified."

      (1)
  8. Is Babylon only the sea beast or a combination of the dragon, beast, and false prophet?
    Rev 16:19 states it is divided into three parts at the end which inclines me to believe it was a combination.
    In addition 6 times Rev refers to worship of 3 aspects:
    Beast
    His image
    Having the Mark
    Rev 14:9; 14:11; 15:2; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4
    I see them being:
    Beast - apostate religion
    Image - force
    Mark/mind - false reasoning
    We need to remember that even the sea beast was a combination of previous beasts Rev 13:1-2 thus includes parts of their beliefs.
    So I believe that Babylon is a confederacy of religions Ps 83:5 with the characteristics of the 3 and according to Rev 18:2 dominated by demons.
    This confederacy will be supported by powers - civil, political, military, merchants - who have been seduced into believing it will be to their benefit.
    I believe it will be these powers that will be issuing the economic sanctions and the death decree as per Rev 13 it is the Image that "causes" against those who don't worship the Image.

    (3)
    • Revelation is great in taking a picture of the same object and either combining or having another look for a different angle. Hence, Babylon as a woman, then as a city, probably the city in the combined sense of the dragon, sea beast and false prophet. Each angle is to provide more insight and clarification of somethings part or the whole.

      (1)
  9. Regards to the symbolic nature of the river Euphrates.
    From my understanding from prophecy the seas and waters represent
    peoples,multitudes, nations and tongues. Rev 17:15. OK!
    Rivers on the other hand in prophecy represent borders between countries and this includes the river Euphrates. Jer 46:2. 1 Chron 18:3. 2 Kgs 24:7. 2 Sam 8:3. How on earth did our our theologians in the SDA church manage to blend these two together, so they mean peoples and nations only?

    (0)
    • Hi Tony, I am not sure what your point is here. The OT references you give are essentially just giving places where events occurred. They are historical rather than prophetic passages. The meaning of these expressions varies according to the context.

      (5)
      • Hi Maurice,

        To understand symbols in prophecy we have to understand what they mean in the Old and New testament Bible first. Hence, the texts naming the historical places of borders with the Euphrates and other rivers.

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  10. Is Babylon only the harlot or is it the harlot and the scarlet beast combined?
    Monday's lesson says they are separate - harlot = religion; scarlet beast = political and secular.
    However Tuesday's lesson identifies the scarlet beast very closely with the sea beast. I find it confusing, maybe tomorrow's posts will help clarify the issue.

    (0)
  11. Possible scenario:
    1) land beast, with a hidden agenda, deceives the inhabitants of the earth to set up an 'independant' civil/military power to solve a worldwide crisis.
    2) This power has the characteristics of the sea beast and uses force to cause world to agree with its decisions or face penalties
    3) 144,000 are sealed, 4 winds are released, to harm God's people and even nature
    4) angel calls all to rather worship the Creator or face His judgements
    5) angel declares all religions of the world corrupt
    6) final destiny of all is decided but satanic triad don't know it and carry on with their plan to eradicate God's people
    7) God pours out His wrath on triad to stop their plan
    8) support for triad dries up
    9) at midnight the Lamb comes to deliver His people and destroy those who made war against Him.

    (0)
  12. It is here that we get more of what is going on in the previous chapter with the drying up of the Euphrates. It's the loss of support by the earth dwellers (those without Christ) as the plagues devastate Satan's domain on earth.

    There are four probable reasons for the plagues: 1. They point out a clear demarcation between those that serve Jesus and those that don't; 2. Those that are deceived will continue to be deceived; 3. Those that are deceived won't repent; and 4. The system for which men have built (Babylon) cannot hold up under its own strength. It will be shown to be a house of cards.

    Babylon is sitting upon many waters and the waters being people, thus, she has the support and the control (for a time) of the masses of those without Christ. And seen here she has the support and control of the state system of the peoples. She being a deceiving religious power parading as God's church. Again, she mimics the high priest attire, she is the apostate church and counterfeit city.

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