Comments

Abstinence and the Priesthood of All Believers — 35 Comments

1. The word "sober" is used 12 times in the new testament (KJV).
   The dictionary meaning for the word is- "not affected by alcohol; not drunk."

   The bible verses are:
   2 Cor 5:13
   1 Thes 5:6 and vs 8
   1 Tim 3:2
   1 Tim 3:11
   Titus 1:8
   Titus 2:2,4,6
   1 Pet 1:13
   1 Pet 4:7
   1 Pet 5:8

   This a very good post to remind us SDA's that many out there in the world are changing their views on alcohol. Let us therefore watch and be sober.

   (31)

   Reply ↓

2. What a thought provoking perspective on this much debated issue.

   This issue is more complicated than I realized, it is so easy to say "no alcohol or tobacco" and then we are fine. That sounds a bit like the rich young ruler who said "I have always kept the 10 commandments" but Jesus showed there was still something else that was interfering with his relationship with the LORD.

   I believe we need to promote an holistic message, anything that interferes with our ability to think and our self control must be avoided because it interferes with our relationship with the LORD.

   What are examples of such things? what we watch, read, listen to, lack of exercise, what we take into our body - food, drink, drugs etc, etc, etc. Note to self: remember when I point two fingers at someone else 3 fingers are pointing back at myself

   (24)

   Reply ↓

3. why waste your life and money on alcohol while you could have used the money you used purchasing the soul destroying element.be reasonable!!

   (7)

   Reply ↓

4. Alcohol = Poor Health + Poor Decisions + Death

   (10)

   Reply ↓

5. I have a question! I never drank alcohol and never plan to, but what puzzles me is this- why do some cultures in the SDA say a little alcohol is okay especially for medicinal purposes. Is that true? I never believed it. Please clarifying! Also, my husband keeps pure white rum at home. We don't drink but he may use it outwardly for rubbing if sick and only for that purpose. I had to hide it because if people come over I don't want them to think we are drinkers. Is Jesus disappointed because it is here even though it is used outwardly ? What is the difference between than then and rubbing alcohol if you are not consuming it? Please clarify. Thanks

   (6)

   Reply ↓

   • Ethyl Alcohol is actually an important industrial chemical. It is mainly used because it dissolves certain substances more easily than other solvents. That is one of the reasons why you find it in medicines quite a lot. It is not there so that you can get drunk on it.

     Now-a-days ethyl alcohol forms the backbone of the renewable energy action because it is easily and cheaply manufactured and released its energy when oxidized (burned). Currently, the fuel I use in my car is about 10% alcohol.

     There is no sin in alcohol per se. It is what you do with it and how you think about it that is a sin. If you think that you can drink alcohol and remain unchanged by it then you are being deceived.

     (6)

     Reply ↓

   • Sabbath School Leaders: What are your thoughts on using wine in cooking/baking. The "alcohol" is evaporated during the cooking process but the essence is kept. What about extracts (vanilla, lemon, peppermint, etc)? I get scoffed when I break out de-alcoholized champagne or non-alcoholic beer for special occasions but no one makes a fuss about daily consumption of de-caffeinated teas/coffees. Why? Vegetarians/vegans "counterfeit" genuine recipes all the time but that's acceptable. Why? Is it a salvation issue? Are we glorifying or shaming God? And for those that would say "Why bother eating/drinking something close to being unacceptable?"; my rebuttal would be "Why then 'substitute' healthy ingredients for anything unhealthy? -Just depart from the norm."

     (1)

     Reply ↓

     • One thing of which your question reminds me, is the principle in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10, that we, as followers of Christ, must consider the effects of our works and actions on others. If they think that we are compromising, some may follow what they perceive to be our lead, and thus may not stand true to God. It is always better, in love, to deny self for the sake of others. If my liberty causes someone else to fall and be lost, then, in that way, it is a salvation issue.

       (5)

       Reply ↓

     • As for the use of wine and extracts in cooking, we need to remember that there's no magical evil in alcohol. It is the effect it has on our power of making good decisions that's the problem. So we need to ask ourselves, does wine in cooking affect our ability to make good decisions? Does vanilla extract affect our ability to think? Since the obvious answer is No, the use of such substances is not an issue of right or wrong, the way I see it.

       John Gilmore makes a valid point re influence: It is possible that the use of de-alcoholized wine or beer for special occasions makes real wine and beer seem like something special?

       Why not just use "sparkling grape juice" and "sparkling cider" instead. They come in fancy bottles just like wine, with an accompanying fancy price, but they do not have the effect of glorifying the fermented beverages. 🙂

       (0)

       Reply ↓

       • Thank you for that very helpful idea. Why not use a substitute, far better than alcohol.

         (1)

         Reply ↓

     • Willie,
       http://ochef.com/165.htm for your consideration. This may or may not answer the question of brain function. Does it answer the question about possible brain or liver damage?

       "Does Alcohol Really Boil Away in Cooking?

       How long does it take for alcohol to burn off during cooking? Is this time the same for all forms of alcohol? Boil? Simmer? How about in baking?

       Yours may be the question of the year. We thought it was pretty cut and dried. We were wrong. And it has taken a while for us to accept what we’ve found out.

       We started looking through a bunch of authoritative cookbooks to see what they said. In The New Making of a Cook (Canada, UK), as authoritative a source as you can find, Madeleine Kamman cautions that a dish with wine must be cooked long enough to remove the harshness of the alcohol. In fact, she wants you to simmer and reduce the wine separately from the sauce, and add it only when it has been gently reduced to its essence. She does not say how long that takes, however.

       Two dozen other major cookbooks we looked at did not address the issue at all. Several stated that the alcohol burns off, but no one took a stab at how quickly or slowly that happens. We looked in our favorite food science books. Nothing. Finally, James Peterson, a cookbook writer who studied chemistry at the University of California at Berkeley, mentioned it in his encyclopedic cookbook, Sauces (Canada, UK). He says you need to cook a sauce for at least 20 to 30 seconds after adding wine to it to allow the alcohol to evaporate. And there is some sense to that, since alcohol evaporates at 172°F (78°C), so any sauce or stew that is simmering or boiling is certainly hot enough to evaporate the alcohol.

       We still weren’t satisfied though. We recalled that when we flambéed foods, it often takes at least a minute for the flames to die out, a sign to us that most of the alcohol is gone. So we dug around online, and got in touch with various government agencies and trade groups that represent wine and spirits manufacturers.

       What we found out has really surprised us. The conventional wisdom accepted by just about everyone in the food world is that all the alcohol you add to a dish evaporates or dissipates during cooking. It’s wrong. In fact, you have to cook something for a good three hours to eradicate virtually all traces of alcohol. And some cooking methods are less effective at removing alcohol than just letting it stand out uncovered overnight.

       A study conducted by the US Department of Agriculture’s Nutrient Data Laboratory calculated the percentage of alcohol remaining in a dish based on various cooking methods. The results are as follows:

       Preparation Method > Percent of Alcohol Retained

       alcohol added to boiling liquid & removed from heat > 85%
       alcohol flamed 75%
       no heat, stored overnight 70%
       baked, 25 minutes, alcohol not stirred into mixture > 45%
       baked/simmered, alcohol stirred into mixture:
       •15 minutes 40%
       •30 minutes 35%
       •1 hour 25%
       •1.5 hours 20%
       •2 hours 10%
       •2.5 hours 5%

       Now, it may be that the amount of alcohol in a dish is modest to start with, but the fact that some of the alcohol remains could be of significant concern to recovering alcoholics, parents, and others who have ethical or religious reasons for avoiding alcohol.

       Madeleine Kamman, James Peterson and some of our other cooking heroes may be on the mark when stating that the harshness of the alcohol burns off quickly. But the alcohol itself is clearly another matter."

       (2)

       Reply ↓

6. Who are the kings that judge Satan?
   Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
   Revelation 1:5-6 says that Jesus made us kings and priests to his God.
   And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
   God looks for a people who will not drink the wine of Babylon.
   Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
   The Three Angels Messages goes forward to call a people out of Babylon. Do not drink the wine of Babylon called confusion, which says it is OK to ignore God’s law.
   We are the kings who Judge Satan. It is not for kings to drink wine that means God’s people. That means it is not for me to drink wine. Drinking leads one to forget God’s Law.

   (11)

   Reply ↓

   • Roma, Very good application. Add the fact that alcohol and other mind numbing drugs are often associated with certain forms of worship, including ancestral, nature, man-made, and satanic gods.
     William may have an answer regarding churches that include alcohol in Christian worship or other gatherings.

     Priests and long haired Israelites, deacons and elders among Christians, pregnant mothers and babies, and those who want to keep their jobs and drivers licenses are instructed against the use of alcohol, but other members of the laity are not mentioned in those discourses, are they? King Lemuel was instructed to give alcohol particularly to the dying and to those who are bitter and need to drown their sorrows over the victimization and desolation of poverty. That covers a significant proportion of the church attending population (except of course for some of our SDA churches that are really doing well, but may get drunk over celebrations rather than necessity).

     How does our Elder William, writer of a very good presentation on abstinence from use of alcohol by a sector of the church, respond to the above, including Noah's right to get drunk when he looked around and saw all the devastation, and thought of all the good people and family members who were drowned?

     (0)

     Reply ↓

7. I had a conversation with one of my secular colleagues about my abstinence from alcohol. We were at a conference and she had noticed I was not drinking "rum and coke" like most of the others. She asked me if I did not drink for religious reasons. I replied that I was a Seventh-day Adventist and that originally as a child and a teenager, I accepted abstinence as part of the deal. But I added that as I grew older and had seen the effect of alcohol and the fact that it was so habit forming, I chose to abstain because I thought it was the safer lifestyle.

   Interestingly that same evening a fracas developed where this woman was offended by the actions of one of the other members of our party who had reached the stage of inebriation where he had lost his inhibitions. My female colleague left the party shorty after with a nod and a wry smile to me.

   I am quite glad that in my youth I followed the guidance of my parents and church. But now I am happy to have made the decision myself to abstain from alcohol. Incidentally, I find myself in good company. I am quite surprised to find that many secular people have come to the same conclusion. We are not alone.

   (14)

   Reply ↓

   • Wisdom is appreciated by those who want to know the truth. May God continue to help you impress on your secular colleagues the blessing of following Him who is Wisdom.

     (1)

     Reply ↓

   • Maurice, wouldn't you say that that person's use of alcohol served a good purpose in helping this woman to differentiate between whom she wants to be around and associate with and those she wants to distance from? She made a good decision, probably a saving decision, because of his drunken state. Wouldn't you say then that alcohol serves the good purpose of helping us know truly who we are, so that instead of hiding our carnality from others and from ourselves, we have a chance to really discover what is inside us, and therefore create opportunities for repentance and restoration?

     (0)

     Reply ↓

     • Hurford, That is an interesting way of looking at alcohol - a truth serum. If we want to know what is truly in a person's heart give them lots of alcohol and their true character will emerge!

       Jesus gave us a different prescription, He sends us the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin, righteousness and judgement.

       (2)

       Reply ↓

       • Shirley, to be convicted, the Holy Spirit - the only way.

         To know who you are dealing with, serve the truth serum; but with the awareness that you just might have awakened a rapist, a reviler, an abuser, a murderer, a misfit, a jester, a debater of religion and politics, one who uses a vehicle as a weapon of mass destruction. Seems like the possibilities are really profuse.

         Maurice was without doubt used of the Holy Spirit to provide guidance for a woman who might have stayed around too long without his words of wisdom. He might have influenced a soul for the Kingdom of God.

         VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION TO ME: The discussion of wine in this blog is a major indicator of the high-jacking of the significant lesson of Proverbs 31. The writer of the lesson made two profound mistakes that misdirected SS Lesson 13. Proverbs is definitely not about "Women and Wine" (a suggestion of women using wine); not even by the best stretch of the imagination. The "Memory Text" completed the diversion: "Do not give your strength to women.... and to wine", and kept the real lesson of the chapter outside in night.

         The entire Proverbs 31 is a significant celebration of the "Virtuous Woman". It begins with the "Virtuous" "Mother" who instructs her King son into the best plan for his life:
         Stay focused on your goal, and don't get distracted. The warning of distraction is not the primary issue. (See article by Hall). The primary issue is that the King stay focused on obedience to God's Law, justice, righteousness, being an advocate for the accused, for the poor and the deprived, and to honor the "Virtuous Woman", trusting her ability to be caring and supportive, but even more so, to be responsible and wise.

         The "Mother" devotes most of Proverbs 31 to speak of attributes, attitude, skills, focus, diligence of the "virtuous woman", and offer affirmations while recognizing that her abilities lead to leadership responsibilities.

         Proverbs 1 is about the wise Father. The entire chapter of
         Proverbs 31 is a major ode to the "Virtuous Woman", modeled by the "Mother", then defined by her.

         Blessings on our Mothers and our Elder Women and our developing "virtuous" young women as well.
         A male writer of the Lesson missed the point completely, but the
         WORD OF GOD is True. It is great to learn how the Word of God teaches us to celebrate true Women of God.

         I know a few.
         May I celebrate my dear mother (who died in the Lord)
         May I celebrate Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (who died in the Lord)
         May I celebrate my dear friend "mother", 96 year old Sister Butler.
         May I celebrate Sister Inge, who God has been using for 20 years to carry on this SSNET ministry. God bless.

         God bless our "Virtuous Women" who know this, or are seeking to know it.

         (0)

         Reply ↓

8. A text in Isaiah, often used to show God’s graciousness, implies He will give wine to the thirsty:
   Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Is 55:1

   I just finished reading all 140 texts that came up under my search for Strong’s H3196, yayin: wine.

   From what I read in the Bible (KJV), God's message to man is to not drink
   1) when you go into the tabernacle (Lev 10:9; Ez 44.21)
   2) if you make a vow to the LORD (Num 6:1-8)
   3) to excess (Prov 23:29-32; Is 5:11)

   Otherwise, wine has been given as gifts/offerings or in hospitality and accepted by
   1) Abraham, Isaac, (Gen 14:18; Gen 27:25)
   2) God (Ex 29:40; Num 28:14)
   3) Saul (1 Sam 16:20)
   4) Daniel (Dan 10:3)

   I’m not advocating that we all run out and buy wine to drink but I no longer see the sanctimonious disapproval which I was taught with regard to wine-drinking as a virtue. On the other hand, excessive drinking is detrimental to ones self and those around that/those self(s).

   And in partial reply to Derline’s question, from the NT (KJV):
   1Ti 5:23 - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
   Rom 14:21 - [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

   May God add His blessing to the reading of His Word.

   (7)

   Reply ↓

   • Debbie: You may find, informative, Tyler Cluthe's comments in Sunday's lesson.
     It's about the 7th comment down the page.

     (1)

     Reply ↓

   • Debbie, I appreciate the text in 1Tim 5:23 that you provided. I knew it was somewhere but was using the wrong words to search. The text is not saying, drink as much as you want, when you want. It is a remedy for a stomach ailment. As you mentioned wine was used in the old testament frequently. I think of Noah who was a significant part of Gods plan to repopulate the earth after the flood. Dead drunk and stark naked in his tent. Gen 9:21. The ill effects were not particularly detrimental to his longevity. 950 years. Jesus first miracle changing the water to wine John 2:9. This was intoxicating wine. As I have mentioned before, if you search long enough for texts to support your belief, you undoubtedly will find what you are searching for. I do not drink alcoholic beverages or advocate the use of it. Mainly because I see no benefit towards improving a healthful life style.

     (4)

     Reply ↓

     • Paul, you said, "Jesus first miracle changing the water to wine John 2:9. This was intoxicating wine." I would like to kindly ask on what basis you conclude that it was intoxicating?

       Is Jesus like someone that puts an open cookie jar in front of a child and says "don't eat" or puts a feast in front of one given to appetite telling him he can only have a taste. Does Jesus tempt us as scripture says, "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" (James. 1:13 NKJV)

       (0)

       Reply ↓

       • Tyler the basis for my comment about the wine in Jesus' first miracle being intoxicating wine,is the Greek word for that wine."Oinos(Oy'-nos)meaning fermented. From a root "Yayin"(Yah'-yin),intoxicating, plus the comment by the master of the feast in verse 10,Is still relevant. If you have ever used alcohol, you know the difference between bar whiskey and bourbon. Like I said I am not advocating indulging in alcohol, but there is a tendency to put any alcohol in the same category as strychnine. A bit overstated or misunderstood.

         (0)

         Reply ↓

       • Paul, I know you mean well but unknowingly you are mixing Greek with Hebrew. The root word of oinos is not yayin. Yayin is Hebrew and is the word mostly translated in the Old Testament into the English word "wine". Oinos is the Greek word that is translated into the English the vast majority of times in the New Testament.

         There is only one other word in the New Testament that is translated into "wine" and that is gleukos but there is only one verse in the entire New Testament that uses that word, Acts 2:13. The Septuagint translates the some 5 or 6 different Hebrew words only once into the Greek gleukos (Job 22:19) so it is a word that is very rarely used at all. All the rest the times the translators of the Septuagint used oinos in their translation which means they did not differentiate between the fermented and the unfermented which the Hebrew often does and that is the problem we have in the New Testament. The only good way that I know of how to understand whether it is fermented wine or unfermented wine is by context and as I asked in my comment would Jesus tempt people into sampling something that could easily end up making them alcholics.

         The fact that leaven was not only to be thrown out during the Passover but was also banned in the sanctuary is significant from a spiritual point of view. Even though libation consisting of wine (yayin) was used in the sanctuary as part of the daily offerings it is difficult to say exactly what it was for the following reasons:
         • When Solomon said, "Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly" (Prov. 23:31 NKJV) he automatically was qualifying what kind of yayin he was talking about meaning that there was a yayin that didn't conform to what we know is the intoxicating beverage.
         • When Isaiah said, "Gladness is taken away, And joy from the plentiful field; In the vineyards there will be no singing, Nor will there be shouting; No treaders will tread out wine in the presses; I have made their shouting cease" (Isa. 16:10 NKJ) the word he used for wine is yayin which was something the treaders produced in the wine press without any time for fermentation.
         • Nehemiah was troubled when, "In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine (Neh. 13:15 NKJV) which raises the question whether the wine being made in the winepresses was the same wine (yayin) being loading on the donkeys.
         • Then there is to me a rather confusing text, "Awake, you drunkards, and weep; And wail, all you drinkers of wine, Because of the new wine, For it has been cut off from your mouth. (Joel 1:5 NKJ). The first word "wine" is yayin but the second is aciyc which is sweet wine or pressed out juice. Why would drunkards weep and wail over the unfermented unless they had mind enough to think of the future? Or could it be that sometimes the new is thought of in derogatory ways as was the case at Pentecost (Acts 2:13 where Luke uses gleukos instead of oinos).
         So can yayin be unfermented? I think there is a lot of overlap between terms and in many cases they can be interchangeable.
         In the next comment I will spend some time discussing the miracle at Cana.

         (0)

         Reply ↓

       • I now would like to ask the question what was the good wine spoken of at the wedding feast at Cana. If we consider that Jesus officially ended His ministry at Passover which was, and still is, in April and that His ministry started with His baptism 3 1/2 years earlier (Dan 9:27). That would mean that the wedding feast in Cana that was well within on month of his baptism (Jn 1:35-2:1) was in the fall about the time of the grape harvest. Because there was new wine production the price of the old would have dropped in an effort to clear out old stock preserved from the previous year just like businesses often do today when new products come out. That situation was probably one reason the wedding was held at that time of the year.

         We are talking about very small communities where there was probably something less than two dozen households that for the most part were not very well off (the family of Jesus was one of those lower class families). The wedding was probably attended by local residents and relatives along with associates of the bride and groom so I am estimating the number of guests well below 100 and with the feast lasting more than a day which was the custom of that time their supply of purchased beverage ran out testifying to their level of wealth or lack of it - they bought what they could. I am also assuming that their financial status was such that probably what they bought was the older stock which would most likely be at some stage of fermentation even if only slightly. That would have been in opposition to the newly pressed juice, the new wine.

         So the question is why would the steward of the feast say, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!" (Jn. 2:10 NKJV). What did he mean by "inferior" and good wine? If we look at what Jesus said, "And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says,`The old is better.'" (Lk. 5:39 NKJV) and compare that illustration with what the steward said it makes all the sense in the world. You start out with new wine first because if you don't then your guests after being full of the more inebriating stuff won't want the newer less fermented product. But that is not what happened at Cana. The older wine was served first then Jesus did the miracle that produced new wine or what we would call grape juice. That is how I view the situation you may choose to argue the whole thing but with this comment I am finished discussing beverages.

         (1)

         Reply ↓

         • Tyler,
           Don't you think it is a problem to determine the works of Jesus Christ/the works of God based on culture, demographics, dictionary meanings, crop season, personal agendas? Isn't this the very reason that the Word teaches us that only the Holy Spirit can reveal to us the Words and Works of God?

           There is no real difference in the methodology of either you or Paul. You define the works of Jesus Christ based on human categorizations, somewhere between personal associations and perception of authoritative literature or cultural patterns. Our Father reserves the right to reveal for Himself what He wants to communicate. His Word, His Knowledge, His Wisdom, can always be trusted to offer clarity to whatever is unclear to us. Suppose we ask Him to guide us into all Truth?

           (0)

           Reply ↓

     • Paul, do you have a justified basis for your interpretation of the "wine" of Jesus' first miracle that you can share? I have heard opposite interpretations, reflective of human perception and or prejudice. Let us not try to fit Jesus Christ into our perceptions, but allow Jesus Christ the reality of Who He is: The Way, The Truth, The Life, Perfect Love. He does not contradict Who He is. HIS "wine" is compatible with HIS Life giving steam, flowing unto eternal life.

       There is no such thing as "intoxicating wine". There is, generally, "wine", 9%, 15% etc; there is beer, 4 %; whiskey 40%; vodka 70%, etc, which is a determination of content in the bottle. And there is intoxication which is a human choice, human activity and human result. The blending of the two reflects the result of personal experience or personal belief, and will differ based on differences in families, religious affiliations, cultures, difficulties or celebrations, etc in one's history.
       I celebrate the meaning of marriage to Jesus Christ in His intervention of providing the "best wine" yet, that day. Somebody got blessed, seriously blessed, that day. And that blessing has remained in The Word ever since. He is to be praised.

       (0)

       Reply ↓

       • Tyler and Huford and who ever else is interested. My comments about the wine at Cana is based on Strong's concordance on E/Sword for the KJV. I do not speak Greek or Hebrew and do not suggest any authoritative information of my own. Strong's (Greek) (G3631) for Oinos, A primary word(or perhaps of Hebrew origin,H3196.) H3196 from an unused root meaning to effervesce; Wine(as fermented) by implication intoxication. That is the reason for mixing Hebrew and Greek. Is there any reason why fermented wine was used in the Old Testament but not in the New. I will site Geneses 9:20,21 again. Unfermented grape juice? Was Noah intoxicated or not?

         (0)

         Reply ↓

         • Paul, my inclination is an avoidance of debates, especially where human opinions hold sway. But I will go at it hard and enjoy the process. So I am having a smile or a good laugh at you and Tyler going at it. I hope to learn in the process. I am not fussing as to where either you or Tyler source your definitions. I just accept it at face value. I am not even checking.

           Regarding the debate over use of language in interpreting Scripture, I am very clear that at times the meaning of the ancient language will offer more clarity in understanding, but at times it will confuse or blur the issue. It is not the word definition that finally determines the message. It is the Source of the message that determines the message. I must know Jesus Christ to know what message that He will send.

           Noah had a good reason for getting drunk, from the standpoint of his experience. It is not a basis for theology. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a good reason for Peter to get drunk also. We are not told if he did. Human experience is not the basis for knowledge of God.
           Point: We get to know God, through Jesus Christ, and through the communication of the Holy Spirit.

           (0)

           Reply ↓

   • "Sanctimonious disapproval," Debbie? What about abundant biblical counsel. If you want to indulge in some wine now and then go ahead, a person can always find justification to do anything they want but would it be what God wants you to do? Would it be glorifying God to do what He has cautioned us against through His prophets?

     Didn't Jesus say, "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them" (Mk. 16:18 NKJV). So it must be ok to drink poison, right?

     (2)

     Reply ↓

     • Tyler, the Bible is what Debbie quoted. SS Lesson 13 quotes Proverbs that allows for wine for those who are dying and those who are "bitter" because of the effects of poverty; and Debbie correctly quoted Paul's admonition for use of alcohol for a chronic stomach ailment. I used alcohol instead of going to the doctor when I became extremely sick (like many others) for several days because of food poisoning from a Sabbath potluck Special K dish. Within 3 hours I was able to have a meal, after vomiting up everything from Sabbath to Wednesday morning, with its awful consequences.
       I give Debbie credit for doing a Bible search to identify the use of and meaning of using alcohol. I have a different experience and image from Debbie's use of language; but I cannot reject her use of that language.

       (0)

       Reply ↓

   • Debbie, I never thought about it as a "sanctimonious disapproval" by those who reject the idea of using alcohol. I always thought of it as a very smart choice in view of clarity of mind versus the craziness/blown fuses/stupidity that results from alcohol. So let me make the argument for social drinking. A glass of red wine daily is beneficial. Confirmed by studies about men. Eventually rejected as being applicable to women. How many of our young people have more fun when they have a little wine, then it becomes ten bears instead of two when watching football or just jesting and laughing, having a good time?

     I think many understand the use of alcohol in medicine, or actually for medicine.
     By the way, God did not drink the wine that was offered to Him when it was poured on the ground or on the altar. It appears that Daniel rejected it as part of his diet; and I would suggest the same for Abraham as indicated in his clarity of mind to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.
     Saul drank his. He ended up at the house of witchcraft.

     (1)

     Reply ↓

9. Jesus changed water to wine. We are not priests we are people. You can choose to be a priest...if you want. But christians are not priests.

   (0)

   Reply ↓

   • 1 Peter 2:9 NKJV

     9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light

     Kathlen, without getting into the "wine" debate, what do you make of 1 Peter 2:9? What does it mean for you and I, and all believers?

     (0)

     Reply ↓

10. The source and context, when using the Bible to substantiate a belief in doctrine, to me are a must. I see many times a word that is used in one context that is applied to another unintended area, simply because it is the same word. Example- the last part of chapter 31 is about a virtuous wife. A member of my SS class said that the word "she", that was used 15 times in verses 10-31, was about the church. Because Christ is the head of the church and the church is like a bride I guess? The point is that I see no such connection intended or otherwise. When we apply a text to our lives, I think it should be for an informed reason. I am aware OF 2Timothy 3:16,how and why scripture is given. Is it profitable if it is misused?

    (0)

    Reply ↓

Please make sure you have provided a full name in the "Name" field and a working email address we can use to contact you, if necessary. (Your email address will not be published.)

HTML tags allowed in your comment: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>