Further Thought:
Read Ellen G. White, “The Creation”, pages 44-51; “The Literal Week”, pages 111-116, in Patriarchs and Prophets.
Image © Stan Myers from GoodSalt.com
“The cumulative evidence, based on comparative, literary, linguistic and other considerations, converges on every level, leading to the singular conclusion that the designation yôm, ‘day’, in Genesis 1 means consistently a literal 24-hour day.
The author of Genesis 1 could not have produced more comprehensive and all-inclusive ways to express the idea of a literal ‘day’ than the ones that were chosen”. — Gerhard F. Hasel, “The ‘Days’ of Creation in Genesis 1: Literal ‘Days’ or Figurative ‘Periods/Epochs’ of Time?” Origins 21/1 [1994], pages 30, 31.
“The greatest minds, if not guided by the word of God, become bewildered in their attempts to investigate the relations of science and revelation. The Creator and His works are beyond their comprehension; and because these cannot be explained by natural laws, Bible history is pronounced unreliable”. — Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 8, p. 258.
Discussion Questions:
- Look at the Ellen G. White quote above. How often, even today, do we see exactly what she wrote, even among professed Christians who, in face of the claims of science, will automatically take the claims of science over the biblical account, which would, as she wrote, imply that biblical history “is unreliable”?
- Why is it impossible to take the Bible seriously while accepting theistic evolution? If you know a theistic evolutionist who claims to be a Christian, why not ask him or her to explain the Cross in light of what Paul wrote (see Romans 5) about the direct link between Adam’s fall and death and the cross of Jesus? What explanation does he or she give?
- If the Bible is God’s revelation, then are not the believer’s faith and eyes opened to the greater reality as expressed in Scripture? How can Christians then be called “closed-minded” when they are opening their minds to the Scriptural truths revealed by an infinite God? In fact, an atheistic, materialistic view of the world is much narrower than the Christian worldview is.
- As believers staying faithful to the Word of God, how can we minister to those who are struggling with questions of sexual identity? Why must we not be those who cast stones, even with people who, like the woman in adultery, are guilty of sin?
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My time has been taken this last week researching and writing my post on the transmission and translation of the Bible and as a consequence my time for writing comments has been somewhat limited. Carmel has been very patient with me and has only reminded me of my housekeeping chores a few times. You can read what I have been up to here:
https://ssnet.org/blog/transmission-and-translation-english-bible/
The notion of creation is foundational to Christianity, but sometimes I think that we get hoodwinked into the "how long and when" argument and forget that there is a bigger picture at stake here. After all we do not have to pass a test on times and dates to receive the gift of salvation. But, we do have to know the creator.
As you may appreciate, I have mixed with a lot of atheists an unbelievers during my research career and we have had some interesting conversations about origins, the meaning of life, Christianity, Atheism and so on. Most of them will argue the point on origins and I don't think I have managed to convince anyone that I was right and they were wrong. I have since read an interesting book on the psychology of belief and one of the points the authors make is that people do not change their beliefs on the basis of argument. That is a sobering thought.
The most convincing argument of all is a caring Christian who lives what they teach. If we believe that we are created by God, irrespective of the mechanics of how it was done, then we need to be recreated by him to live a saved life for the benefit of others.
I am a scientist, but I have to confess that I do not know all the answers, and I am certain that I do not have the concise convincing logical arguments. But, on the other hand, I am also a Christian and one of my aims is to try and live like Christ.
That's my roadmap!
I have said it many times, words, arguments, etc. do not convince others. You can present a logical argument and support all your points very well and it will still not convince others.
When I discuss things with others my goal is never to convince them but rather to express my beliefs in as clear a manner as possible. Once I know that they understand my point my goal is achieved.
Ironically my best friend and I have had many a debate and over the years we have argued both sides of a point. Yes we've actually switched sides. I came to believe what he did then and he came to believe what I did then. There's a lesson in that 🙂
Great road map! One of my favorite verses. Thanks for another thoughtful and well expressed post.
Amen Brother Maurice. We missed your wisdom evidenced here.
I just finished re-reading a section from Dennis Praeger’s Genesis commentary regarding creation. He points out that a man of antiquity, Moses, got it so right 3000 years ago. Today’s science says the earth was, in its infancy, covered in water from end to end and the atmosphere was a dark and murky mess, uhh! Imagine that. A man of no modern science writing as if he had intimate knowledge of today’s modern science. What are the chances?
"... people do not change their beliefs on the basis of argument."
Maybe that means I'm not a person? I changed my mind on women's ordination after reading many of the arguments for and against. Interestingly, I was more impressed by the weakness, fallacy, and inconsistency of the arguments on the one side, than by the strength of those on the other side.
For me, it's still a matter of letting the truth win.
Genesis – Begins with the creation of God. Ends with Joseph being placed in a coffin.
In the Beginning – For humans who lives in finite cannot understand God who dwells in eternity. When talking about heavenly things the bible says eyes have not seen, ears not heard nor these things have entered the thoughts of human what God has prepared for us. What is holding you back in this world? Is it really worth it?
Creation – Reflects the character of God. Evolution rightly reflects the character of satan. In order to be number one, you must suppress and put down others classical kingdom of satan. Harmony, perfection and equality can only be found in the kingdom of God. When a person rules over another person, he is rightly reflecting the character of satan.
Sabbath - 27 But the Sabbath was made to benefit man, and not man to benefit the Sabbath. 28 And I, the Messiah,[h] have authority even to decide what men can do on Sabbath days!” Mark 2:27-28
Marriage - 26 For a prostitute will bring a man to poverty, and an adulteress may cost him his very life. 27 Can a man hold fire against his chest and not be burned? 28 Can he walk on hot coals and not blister his feet? 29 So it is with the man who commits adultery with another’s wife. He shall not go unpunished for this sin. Proverbs 6: 26 – 29
Cross - Striped of all clothing. Hanging naked on the cross. Carrying the curse He himself pronounced in the garden of Eden knowing not all would accept His sacrifice. He died to give humanity the choice. Read the story of the cross it will melt the heart.
Creation – There was a scientist who was arguing about an evolution. One night the person working in the lab worked on a model solar system and went home. The next day when they both returned, the scientist immediately began to question who could have created the solar system. The person in the lab said, it must have evolved overnight to this model solar system. The scientist would not accept it could have evolved, yet when it comes to complicated mathematical precision of all of the solar systems in the galaxy. The scientist claims its randomness of choice.
“The odds of 400 left-handed amino acids linking up by chance is less than (0.5)380, and, since the simplest cell would need over 120 proteins, the combined probability would be less than (0.5)380x120 = 1.08x10-13,727. This is an impossibly small probability, and we have not yet accounted for the specific sequences of amino acids needed, which would reduce the probability far more.[3]"
APPENDIX A
The Odds of Life Forming by Chance.
http://members.toast.net/puritan/Articles/HowOldIsTheEarth_A.htmhttp://members.toast.net/puritan/Articles/HowOldIsTheEarth_A.htm
It takes faith to believe in evolution which does not offer any hope. I would rather believe in God who had proved His existence in my life. I have tasted Him and he offers me eternal life with Him.
How about you?
Newbegin, the Good News is that worldly wisdom does not understand the mysteries of God - But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit.
1Co 2:9-10 MKJV But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (10) But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:6-8 MKJV But, we speak wisdom among those who are perfect; yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, that come to nothing. (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory; (8) which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
Why am I on a Treasure Hunt in the Word of the LORD? So I can fulfill my Mission.
My Mission in life: Acknowledge the LORD as Almighty in my heart and always be ready to give an answer to every person that asks me a reason for my hope of eternal life, gently and respectfully. (paraphrase of 1 Peter 3:15)
The Word of the LORD is a treasure trove revealing the Everlasting Gospel which is the truth of the Everlasting Covenant.
The center and foundation is Joh 3:16 MKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
From there I have discovered more and more gems which reveal the true character of the LORD and His Plan of Salvation which He had from before the creation of the world. It is a never ending journey.
This week’s lessons gave us reasons for our faith: Heb 11:1,3 KJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which previously existed.
Search the Scriptures to learn more and more of Jesus not to prove the serpent wrong. Remember serpent language is – don’t believe the word of the LORD, believe me.
Neither the atheist nor the creationist have all the evidence for a "smoking gun" for their views. Both have to have a good dose of faith for their respective beliefs. Some evidence can be explained better than other evidence in the respective camps. I think it is important to have a healthy dose of humility in either camp and not seek to attack the other for the purpose to destroy. A lot of the time an atheist has reason for not believing by how the believer in God acts. I don't want to give them in my life more evidence to the contrary. Maybe then they might begin to contemplate the divine possibility.
True theologians and true scientists are necessarily humble inasmuch as they both realize how little they are and how little they know.
My dad always said that it takes more faith to be an atheist than a Christian.
I hold the same opinion as your Dad, Sieg. I love science and for me just a living organism's incredible complexity and design is to difficult to support through the notion of chance processes and then the upward mobility out of those chance processes.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handiwork. Ps 19:1
What two beautiful readings, every time I read/listen to those reading it's like I get new knowledge. A greater one is still involve in the affairs of men. We are not left to find our own way.
God does not annul His laws or work contrary to them, but He is continually using them as His instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” John 5:17. {PP 114.4}
Ques #4----how can we minister to those who are struggling with questions of sexual identity?
I work with these people every day. I cant change them by pointing out what the bible says or doesn't says because most of them knows what the bible says. The greatest sermon preach is the live I live.
Rom 1:26-32 Paul began with the sin of the flesh but did not stopped there, he continues to show us that all sins if we cont to cherish them will lead to everlasting death. He even mentioned those sins. E.g If I hate other humans because of their disposition in life or someone in government, hell awaits me. If I envy others because they have more than me, if I like to gossip about the what, where and who of a church member. If I disobey my parents or does not even support my parents in old age when they needed me most, or if I tries to rob and cheat my other siblings out of their inheritance, hell fire awaits me. It I sit and look at all those debasing movies which leads to sexual passions etc etc, my name will be place in the same book as those who do not know or refused to acknowledge God.
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I found the reading of the 2 chapters in Patriarchs & Prophets very beautiful. I know I’ve read that book several times before, and each time I come away understanding that it is crucial that we believe what is written in scripture regarding creation. Just like the title of our lesson this week, it is foundational to our belief in God. If we can’t trust that when the scriptures say “and the evening and the morning were the...day, means a literal day, then we are at risk of dismissing other crucial beliefs about God. We have to trust God, and when we have doubts and questions, take them to Him and let Him be our guide to truth. Science was created by God, but sin has effected it, just like we have been effected, it is unreliable. If science is not in harmony with scripture, then we need to trust the scriptures, and trust that God will lead us to understanding.
We really should not be surprised or dismayed that we are not 'understood' by the world. The world with its wisdom can not - not 'does not want to' - CAN NOT understand the Wisdom of God.
Faith comes first - Wisdom follows. Once we are settled in our Faith, we can start sharing God's Wisdom related to all the things pertaining to life with those that do not 'understand'. We can stand straight with a smile on our face.
Luke 11:33 - No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick that they which come in may see the light.
Everyone is 'impressed' when the philosophers of the western world quote the words of wisdom spoken by their Greek teachers.
Let US quote the Wisdom of God - memorize, remember the advise and the wise sayings found throughout the Book of Proverbs and share them when applicable. Encourage the foolish and the scoffer to read about Wisdom in 'Proverbs' and then have a dialogue if there is curiosity.
Prov.9:10 - The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Prov.3:1-5 - v.5: Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding.
We can find anything we wish to understand regarding 'Wisdom' in the Book of Proverbs. It will give us insight into everything related to life; food for thought, to give advice and to direct our decisions.
Prov.8:1-5 - Does not Wisdom cry and understanding put forth her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. O ye simple, understand wisdom; and ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Paul's words - 1 Cor. Chapter 2 -
v.4-5 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
v.12 - Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
v.14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned.
Why do we still wonder about the world rejecting God's Wisdom and prefer their own? Prayer for God to open their eyes is what the blind need from us, and the good works that were ordained from the beginning of the world that we should walk in them.
Matt.5:13,14 - Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A 'city' that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
God's Wisdom is perfect, we need not to be ashamed of it when we share it! We can boldly declare the Wisdom of God, using His words, instead of arguing with the unbeliever using our words and relying on their power to persuade.
Paul' words - Eph.3:8-12 - Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now, (like) unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places, might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Thank you, Br. Maurice, and welcome back!
"If you know a theistic evolutionist who claims to be a Christian, why not ask him or her to explain the Cross in light of what Paul wrote (see Romans 5) about the direct link between Adam’s fall and death and the cross of Jesus? What explanation does he or she give?"
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There are many places to go to answer this question. I recommend sites such as Biologos.com and where this issue has been discussed over and over. In my experience, many creationists do not hang around long enough to consider what thoughtful Christians have written on this topic over many years.
In short, there are many questions. Is Paul talking about animal death, or just human death? Does he mean physical death, or spiritual? Did the cross of Jesus redeem all humans from physical death, or only from spiritual death? Did Paul mean Eve as well? Etc etc.