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HopeSS: Crisis in Heaven — 15 Comments

1. When exactly was Satan cast out of Heaven? Was it before Adam and Eve first sinned or after Job proved that GOd's commandments could be kept?
   When the lesson states that Satan was still able to come before the throne of God, was this the physical throne in heaven?

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   • Satan was cast out of Heaven after his whole nature and motives was revealed at the Cross of Calvary.
     There the true character of God was revealed and the true character of devil as well. He had no argument after that and he no longer could come to God and accuse.
     before that he would come before God to mock God that the whole earth with its inhabitants was his. and that he has right to question God's motives.

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   • As far as I can see, although scripture does not give the exact time Satan was cast out of heaven, we have some indications as to when this event occured.

     When God laid the foundations of the earth (Job 38:4) the morning stars sang together, and the sons of God shouted for joy (Job 38:7). In synonym parallelism the morning stars are identified with the sons of God to be angels (Job 1:6;2:1).

     By way of implication we can say that the angels, including Lucifer as a perfect superior angel, were created before the creation of man and his environment (as to the creation of Lucifer see Ezekiel 28:13.15).

     Lucifer used the serpent as medium to overcame Adam and Eve tempting them to transgress God`s commandment (Genesis 3:1). This would place the casting out of Satan some time in between the creation of the earth and the creation of the angels: in between the visible and the invisible creation (Colossians 1:16).

     In view of His approaching death on the cross Christ is announcing the present judgement over the world in connection with the utter casting out of the ruler of this world at the time of Christ`s crucifiction (John 12:31). From this time on the accuser has no access to the throne of God to accuse the believers as he had done before (Job 1:10-11). This final casting out is also refered to in Revelation 12:10. The ultimate judgement over all evil in utter eradication is taking place at the end of the world (Revelation 20:10.14) and must not be confused with the present judgement over the world and the ruler of this world with the ultimate casting out of the accuser of our brethren.

     Although the throne of God is not mentioned in this context of accusation, it is presupposed that God, sitting on His throne within the throne room, that is within the sanctuary, is making decisions on events of world history, history of His church and with individuals, such as Job (Revelation 5:1.13; Ezekiel 1:26; 10:1). The throne of God is the very centre of all that.

     Regards

     Winfried Stolpmann

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2. I wonder if this thought might be useful, in terms of "timing".

   Prior to the fall of Adam, the Devil is spoken of as "SO RECENTLY an angel in high authority". (1SP 32.) Not many years prior to the creation of this world, Satan had stood as "Lucifer", one of the great light-bearers beside the throne of God. (He was one of the angels represented in Ex 37:9.)

   When the creation event took place, it contained lessons about the recent separation that had taken place among the angels. Light and dark were separated; the mass of waters covering the planet were also separated (a great gulf being fixed between the two bodies). Lesson after lesson was imparted. (Gen 1.) The whole creation event was FULL of lessons relating to the separation that had so recently taken place among the angels.

   "All heaven took a DEEP and JOYFUL INTEREST in the creation of the world and of man". (1BC p.1081.) For them it was not simply an occasion of ooh's and aah's; it was a time of deep contemplation, and reflection upon the painful breaking asunder of the bonds that had existed in angelic society for a very long time.

   The whole universe had been effected by the war, but now "a new and distinct order" was introduced. (ibid.)

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3. I was watching rebellion and redemption lesson, I see you blame Satan for a lot of things that actually writing black and white in the Bible. For instance you say Satan's goal is to destroy as many people as he can, it is true, but did the Bible says many have call but a few choosing? Not everyone that says God will enter the kingdom of God, also the Bible says 2/3 will be lost only 1/3 will make it. It is not Satan that put a cap on how many people will make it. It is God himself. As a seventh day Adventist we have refused to accept that we have been predestined since the beginning of the world, we have kept preaching if I want to be saved I can,until we go back to the Bible and preach it like it is people like me will not take you seriously and as Mark 4:11-12 says ;For those who are outside of the body of Christ everything will passed as a parables, etc. Don't be upset I am trying to make a point and just wake you up, but I am open if you can show me something else, I love you and I want to see you in the heaven.keep on running, struggling to take all the prices, you see predestination doesn't stop anybody to run. God bless and catch you later.

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   • Dear Jean, could you share where you get your information, please? Where does the Bible say that 2/3 will be lost and only 1/3 will make it? (Is that 1/3 of all people that ever lived? Is that 1/3 of all who ever professed Christ? Or?) I don't recall ever reading such a thing.

     Where does the Bible say that God put a cap on how many people will make it? Does God not want everyone to be saved? That's what Peter seems to say in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." How do you read that?

     We believe that God predestined us all to be saved, but He also gave us free choice, so we can choose to reject His destiny for us.

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4. Iam sure this is going to be a hot discussion during the study at church
   I would propose that we pray and ask God to lead us....preconceived minds will not help....we have to humble ourselves at the Lord's mercy.....the Great Controversy is real....let us not fight to prove something but rather to know what is required to be saved......Amen

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   • It can be called predestination because God knows the beginning and the end of each person that has lived on this earth. It does not mean that God picked certain
     people to fail and some to make it. It is and always has been our choice and He
     showed us the way to salvation.

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     • Diane, according to the standard definition of "predestination," it does, indeed, mean that God picked certain people to fail and certain people to "make it."

       Here's that definition:
       (as a doctrine in Christian theology) the divine foreordaining of all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others. It has been particularly associated with the teachings of St. Augustine of Hippo and of Calvin.

       Seventh-day Adventists reject that kind of predestination. We believe that God ordained that all should be saved (Eph 1:11, Ro 8:29) provided that it did not mean violating their free will. He does not save people against their will. Compare with John 3:16

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       • No Scripture says that “God ordained that all should be saved”. Eph 1:11 it says “...WE having obtained an inheritance, having been PREDESTINED according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His WILL.” WE are the believers, the saints. God identifies the PREDESTINED in Rom 8:29 as the FOREKNOWN - “For THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of HIS SON so that He (Christ) would be the firstborn among many brethren.” God “knows” only those who are His (2 Tim 2:19).
         These are the sons whom God brings to glory through Christ, Christ’s brothers, and Christ’s Seed.(Heb 2:10-16; Isa 53:10) “Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed US with every SPIRITUAL blessing ... just as HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD that we should be holy and blameless ... He PREDESTINED US to ADOPTION AS SONS through Jesus Christ to Himself according to the kind intension of His will.”(Eph 1:1-14) This is a specific People! There is nothing that can frustrate the fulfillment of THE WILL OF GOD. The Scriptures affirm “I will raise up shepherds over them, ... NOR WILL ANY BE MISSING,” declares the Lord.(Jer 23:4,5). “ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME, and ... I will certainly not cast out... I give them ETERNAL LIFE.”(JOHN 6)
         2 Th 2:13-14 “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has CHOSEN YOU FROM A BEGINNING FOR SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT AND FAITH IN THE TRUTH.”
         The 5 foolish virgins could not enter because “Truly I say to you, I DO NOT KNOW you.”
         All the saved are FOREKNOWN OF GOD, CHOSEN, ELECT. "Who can bring a charge against God's elect... in all these things we more than conquer"

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         • Kenny, I'd like to encourage you to reconsider the statement in which you wrote, "No Scripture says that “God ordained that all should be saved”. While Eph 1:11 in context may not be saying that outright, what do you understand Paul to be saying in his comparison of Adam's versus Christ's effect in Romans 5? (particularly Rm 5:12,18). What is Scripture also indicating in 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 Jn 2:2? Isn't there harmony between these and Jesus' own statement in Jn 3:16?
           I agree that the "predestined" ARE "foreknown" of God (Rom 8:29). The salvation of humanity occurs within the context of 1 Jn 5:7, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are acting unitedly. Note that the Father presents Himself as the ONLY Savior (Hos 13:4;Ps 106:21) in the OT, yet in the NT we see the unfolding of His will in Christ (Acts 13:23;5:31). According to 1 Jn 5:1, those "born of God" LOVES "Him who begot"(the Father) as well as those "begotten of Him", of which Christ is preeminent (Jn 1:18;3:16,18;Heb 2:10). These births (excluding Christ's) occur from among Adam's fallen descendants (Col 1:12-13), explaining the Father's "foreknowledge", which is in harmony with the rest of Scripture (Jn 6:44;1 Jn 5:1,4-5;Jn 3:3). The birth (Jn 1:12-13), the love (1 Jn 4:19) and the faith (Eph 2:8) are ALL gifts to all who remain in the Son's care(Jn 15:9;10:28-30;1 Jn 5:13). This was all foreshadowed in God's provision of a deliver for OT Israel in the person of Moses (Deut 18:18-19; Heb 3:2,5-6). The Son in faithfulness to the Father, lays down His life (Jn 10:15) AND gifts the believers for SURE victory (Act 2:33;1 Jn 5:18) in accordance with the Father's will (1 Jn 3:5,8).

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         • Kenny, could you please clarify:
           Do you believe that God predestined some persons to be eternally damned? (That would seem to be the alternative to his choosing/ordaining all to be saved.)

           Note the test you referenced: Romans 8:29:
           God *foreknew* those who would choose to believe in Christ, and he predestined them to be conformed to His image.
           Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. Foreknowledge is a function of omniscience. It does not indicate that those whose actions God foreknew were not freely chosen.

           John 3:16 tells me that Christ died for the whole world so that all who believe on Him should have eternal life. Some do not believe by their own choice (which God foresaw), and that's the only reason they do not have eternal life, because Christ's provision is sufficient for all.

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5. You could call it predestination because God knows the beginning and the end of
   each person who lived on earth. He did not choose who would be faithful and who would not choose to serve Him. It is our choice only, but we need Him to help us during our daily life.

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6. I was so blessed when I watched Hope Sabbath School Lesson 2, "Crisis in Eden." The take-away lesson was so powerful.
   In case you don't understand everything, in case you are caught in a big dilemma in life, in case you have done a GRAVE SIN in life despite you're already a Christian, in case you are absolutely helpless with all the problems bombarding you - RUN TO GOD. Tell GOD that you don't have the power and the wisdom to solve your problems. In faith, give everything to GOD because HE can solve the ALL imaginable problems and even the impossible to solve problems. I love you all my brethren, especially Inge Anderson. I praise GOD for everything. I want to be faithful to HIM regardless of the circumstances of my present struggles. In life or death, I am for the LORD - Romans 14:8-9, "8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living."

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7. Thanks Hope Sabbath School for the discussion which is facilitated by Pastor Derek Morris and participated by 12 dedicated brethren.
   Your program is a blessing to Christianity.
   May our LORD GOD continue to empower all of you/us until HE comes again.
   Praise GOD!

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8. Inge, wherever the Scripture speaks of God’s predestination it tells of predestination to glory, everywhere. It says “chosen for salvation” etc. No where does it ever speak of “predestination to damnation”. It was Adam who destined us to damnation.
   Those of Adam’s posterity who are God’s are predestined to glory.
   God’s FOREKNOWLEDGE or KNOWLEDGE is not intellectual assent or awareness like our knowledge. God said to some who had “done wondrous things in His name” - “I never KNEW you”.(Matt 7:23) If that is simply intellectual awareness then God is a liar.
   God said, “The firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord KNOWS those who are His.”(2 Tim 2:16; John 10:14-16, 26-29; 17: 3,6,9,10; Rom 9:8; Isa 43:6,7,21)
   It is this knowledge, “BEFORE I FORMED YOU IN THE WOMB I KNEW YOU, and BEFORE YOU WERE BORN I CONSECRATED YOU; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations”.(Jer 1:5)
   Concerning Paul: “But when God, WHO HAD SET ME APART FROM MY MOTHER’S WOMB...”(Gal 1:12)
   Jesus said “And this is Eternal Life, that they may KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3) That is not simple intellectual awareness.
   The 5 foolish virgins did not get in because “the LORD said, ‘Truly, truly I say to you, I DO NOT KNOW YOU’.(Matt 25:12)

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