Monday: The Fires of Hell
In his booklet for children entitled, The Sight of Hell (Dublin: James Duffy, [1874], p. 24), English Roman Catholic priest John Furniss (1809-1865) illustrates the eternal torment by means of a great solid-iron ball, larger than the heavens and the earth. “A bird comes once in a hundred millions [sic] of years and just touches the great iron ball with a feather of its wing.” The author argues that the burning of sinners in hell continues even after that iron ball is worn away by such occasional feather touches!
The sad thing is, many Protestants even today believe in something similar for the lost.
Read Malachi 4:1 and Jude 7. How can these passages help us better understand the notion of “eternal fire” or the idea, as Jesus had expressed it, that the lost will be in “everlasting fire” (Matthew 18:8) or in a “fire that shall never be quenched”? (Mark 9:43, NKJV).
Image © Kevin Carden at Goodsalt.com
The word “eternal” (Heb. ’olam; Greek aion, aionios) carries different meanings, depending on the immediate context. For example, when associated with God (Deuteronomy 33:27, ”everlasting”), the word expresses His eternity. When related to human beings (Exodus 21:6, “forever”), the word is limited by their life span. When qualifying fire (Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25:41, “everlasting”), it implies that the fire will not go out until it fully consumes what is being burned. This means that the “eternal fire” will be eternal in the sense that it will consume the wicked completely and irreversibly, leaving them “neither root nor branch” (Malachi 4:1, NKJV).
The theory of an everlasting punishment of the wicked has serious implications. If the wicked are punished forever, then evil will never be eradicated. Also, all human life derives from God (Deuteronomy 32:39, Psalm 36:9), who has “no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezekiel 33:11, NKJV). Why then would He continue to grant life to the wicked to suffer in endless torment? Would it not be much more reasonable for Him just to end their existence? If the wicked will be punished “according to their works” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV), why then should a short human life be punished endlessly?
All Bible references to the “eternal fire” should be seen as allusions to the post-millennium “lake of fire” of Revelation 20:1-15 (see lesson 13). Thus, it is unbiblical to speak of an already-present, ever-burning hell.
| As unfortunate as the fires of hell are, what does the truth about hell reveal to us about God’s love, especially in contrast to the idea of eternal torment? |
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The pagan idea of eternal torment has many Christians believe not only in a natural immortality of the soul, but a hellfire burning forever and forever where the lost are constantly being cooked by their sins. Thankfully, previous lessons about the biblical human nature helped prepare the way for understanding the concept of hellfire. The fires of hell are unquenchable meaning it cannot be extinguished until its purpose has been fulfilled. Hellfire will burn once the job is finished. Once the job is finished, the result of the fire is eternal, it cannot be undone.
Today’s lesson clarified the misunderstanding belief of hellfire being no more as a punishing means to end life completely. Why does it matter? Because God is the righteous Judge who punishes wickedness fairly (Revelation 20:12). More importantly, God is love. Because He does not punish the lost endlessly in hellfire based on the works of a human lifespan (lifetime on Earth). If Christians believe in a hellfire where the wicked are eternally tormented day and night (eons upon eons), then God is not love after all. Instead, God is evil. How evil? More evil than Satan and the devils since He is in charge of hell. The guilty party deserving eternal torment should be Satan and his demons. Personally, I think Satan and his demons will be punished more than the wicked lost because they’re angels created differently than humans. Additionally, Satan and his demons have been around since the war in heaven. Justly, the last person to fall after everyone else has been annihilated by the eternal fire is Satan himself who started this whole sinful mess. Even Satan will be completely gone by hellfire proving that God is love by not allowing Satan to be tormented forever and forever (deservingly so). Hellfire is a punishment of love from God.
Reggie, this last statement made me shudder. "Hellfire is a punishment of love from God." If this is true then God would prove to be what Satan accused Him of being i.e. a punishing arbitrary God. GOD IS LOVE. (See 1Cor 13)
Hi Christine:
Everything God says He will do are actions of love including hellfire. Hellfire is a punishment of love from God because the unsaved sinner will not be happy living in the new heaven and new earth. If God granted the unrepentant sinner eternal life, then the new heaven and new earth will be a place of misery for the unrighteous saved because his or her sins remain. Therefore, God’s government of love will be a living hell to live for all eternity due to their unholy nature. For example, Satan and his demons were kicked out of heaven (Revelation 12:7) because they didn’t agree with God’s government of love. It wasn't a place for them to live any longer because they viewed heaven (God’s kingdom) a place of too much selfless holiness and not enough selfish (sin) righteousness. The resurrection of the wicked dead will still hold on to their sins rather than repenting from it (Revelation 20:5). Their action gives further evidence of an unchanged heart (Revelation 22:11) and character in wanting to overtake (conquer) God’s kingdom (New Jerusalem) for themselves (selfishly). Christ has no choice, but to end their sinful misery by hellfire as their final punishment (Revelation 20:9). This strange act from God using hellfire to finally end and destroy sin, death, Satan, fallen angels, and the wicked lost is a punishment of love.
Iam so thankful to this lesson because I am a Sunday keeper so what Bible say is different but people are confused by man's doctrine so now I see this week's lesson and give me good inspirational thoughts by the holy spirit..thanks
Here's a thought...
The human mode of time is segmented: hours, days, months, years, centuries, millennium, etc.
The God mode of time is boundless and unmetered: eternal, everlasting.
So when we speak of "everlasting hellfire" we speak of God's mode. Another way to say it is "in God's timing, not human's". The fire will be kindled and burn and extinguish in God's timing. Hell is "everlasting" in that humans won't and can't start it or stop it. Just as we can't measure God's mercy, we also can't measure God's justice. It's outside of the natural order of things. It's a supernatural God thing.
The Malachi text and others make it clear that hell won't burn without ending. It will stop when God is satisfied that the Earth is cleansed of sin. Just like in Noah's day, the Flood rains stopped and receded when God was satisfied.
Wow! Yes, that makes perfect sense.
I mentioned last week that we really do need to have a series of lessons that discusses the challenges of figures of speech in the Bible. Today's lesson is a case in point. Most of us believe that when it comes to "Everlasting fire" the "everlasting" bit is metaphorical - that there is an end to the fire but the consequences last forever. But we seem to still carry the notion that the fire has some sort of physical form and that sinners will feel the heat of the flames.
However, what if that reference to fire is also a metaphor?
I don't have any barrow to push here, and I know there are some who do. If we can put that aside for now, can we just have a bit of a discussion about the use of figures of speech and try and work out how we handle them? Hopefully, we can better understand the "everlasting fire" once we have had that discussion.
Great idea Maurice. I'll join you - also without a barrow to push.
When it comes to fire and God, there is quite an array of times that fire is mentioned in conjunction with God. I have needed to (and am continuing that journey) familiarise myself with them to get a 'feel' for the scope of usage.
Isaiah 33:14-15 is but one that is particularly interesting. Isaiah 33:15 describes those who actually live with "consuming fire" in "everlasting burning" (NASB); or "devouring fire" and "everlasting burnings" (KJV). Is this a group of people you would want to be part of? Appears this group get food and water to sustain them amid the fire/burnings Isaiah 33:16). Metaphor or literal?
Unpacking Isaiah 33:14-15 a bit...
What might the metaphor of God as "consuming fire" be reflecting about His nature and character? Could it be that He is nothing but (the) Truth - as in The Way, The Truth and The Life (John 14:6)? If we consider that 'sin' entered Lucifer and Adam and Eve because/when they each embraced non-truth via deception (self-deception in the case of Lucifer), would not Truth "consume"/expose/dissolve a lie/deception?
Thus, the righteous dwell with "consuming fire" and "everlasting burnings" because they dwell with/within Truth. Truth is a key aspect of righteousness or rightness.
What will 'sinners' who have hearts irreversibly hardened in self-seeking face at the end when they come face to face with pure Truth that dissolves deception? Might that be what is going on that produces "weeping and gnashing of teeth" - trying to fight against truth but in the end truth 'burning' through the deception by dissolving the lies/deceptions they have held to?
What do you think?
Dear Phil – my comment in response to your invitation became a bit lengthy, but I hope that you will find it valuable and will share your thoughts with us.
I find to have the same understanding to see God and His Son as “nothing but Truth, the Way and the Light”. In this light, I consider what it is that is being ‘burned up’ when we ‘walk/live by faith’ and that which takes place when the unbeliever faces the final 'consuming fire'.
The refiner’s 'fire', as I see it, is not 'punishment', but instead the process of ‘refining/disciplining/burning up that which is not part of God’s Truth and Light. This takes place in the believer and unbeliever's lifetime and leads to the question: ‘what really is that which is being eradicated/eliminated/burned-up/consumed when one's life is 'tried as with fire’, or in the end consumed entirely? Heb. 12:5-11.
Scripture points out that the righteous dwell with/in Him - the ‘fire’. Zech.13:9; 1Peter1:7. Having our being in Christ Jesus, being with/in Him, metaphorically speaking, I believe represents the ‘refining fire’ leading unto more abundant life. The life of those who are not found in Him, their 'substance' foreign to that which is Truth, Light, and Life, is already considered dead even though they are still 'alive'. Eph. 2:1
One could therefore conclude that ‘fire’ and ‘everlasting fire’ consumes that which is not part of 'God/Son - Truth, Light and Life'. It removes the dross from the believer’s life toward everlasting life, but in the end wholly consumes what is left of a life lived by one's own 'truth', outside of God - refusing to be 'refined' by the Refiner's fire during one's lifetime.
Hi Brigitte
I find and believe that 'The Great Controversy' our planet is presently located within is fundamentally a 'war/battle' (polemos) regarding "what is truth?" (Revelation 12:7; John 18:38). Is life within the parameters of the Kingdom of God the only viable life that is possible (eg Genesis 2:16,17)? Or is there also another viable option outside of that - one that is perhaps even superior as proposed by Satan (Genesis 3:4)?
I also find and believe that, had God not intervened to temporarily suspend the inherent consequences of the truth/reality that there is no viable way/truth/life outside of the Kingdom of God, Lucifer would have ceased to exist at his original 'rebellion' (against truth) just as humanity would have ceased at Genesis 3:6. The upside of that intervention is that God has created a second-chance probationary period for all to choose what they believe to be truth: the Way of His Kingdom (based upon freedom of choice and beneficence) - or some/any other way and basis (eg self-seeking). The downside is that life on some other basis temporarily can appear to be equally viable or even superior (eg Psalm 73:2-5).
But as time goes on towards the conclusion of this probation, when everyone has 'cemented/sealed' their choice, restraint against the full and inherent impacts of non-truth is being progressively released by God (eg Revelation 7:1-3). This is parallel to God also having attempted to draw each person to awareness and embracing of truth along the way.
So while the question "what is truth" can seem an abstract and merely theoretical question, it is profoundly practical. Life and living depends upon it. The same goes for non-truth/lies that inherently produces 'steal, kill and destroy' (John 10:10). And what is it that causes a lie/non-truth to 'dissolve' and no longer be? Revelation of Truth. And because Truth is the only life (John 14:6), there will come a time when the non-viability of any other basis is also revealed/manifest - resulting in the dissolving of 'life' for those who have embraced such.
God uses metaphors to assist us to try and grow in our understanding of truth/reality - of which refiner's and consuming fire is one. Truth refines awareness (and therefore our way of living because truth is profoundly practical) and 'consumes/dissolves' non-truth in its presence.
So, yes, I agree with what you are proposing and have outlined the basis upon which I agree with that.
Regards
Thank you, Phil - you have been a voice of inspiration to me, and more than that - comfort -, since I came to SSnet almost three years ago.
As a Christian, I consider desiring to discover 'what is God's Truth' to be one of the greatest privileges for all who love God with all their heart and being.
It seems clear that "fire" in the Bible does not always refer to fire that consumes material substances. For instance, when Moses met Jehovah at the "burning bush" the bush was on fire but did not burn up.
When "eternal fire" is used in the gospels, it seems to be generally in the context of "hell" or Gehenna, which referenced the Jerusalem garbage dump. Real fire burned there continuously to consume the city refuse, probably much like municipal garbage dumps today. And the text in Jude 7, refers to Sodom and Gomorrha which seem to have been consumed by the fire and Jude likens that to the "the judgment of the great day."
Phil mentioned Isaiah 33:14-15 which implies that God is a "consuming fire" to the "unrighteous" while it appears to be safe for the righteous. That fire is clearly different from what we know here, but I don't know by what standard that could be called a "metaphor." It sounds very much the same as the fire of the "burning bush" that Moses saw.
It might be wise to open our minds to more possibilities than some of us may have had in mind before.
I agree with you Maurice and with many of the others. I do think the fire is literal, but I don't think it's what causes the lost to die. I believe the fire burns up the dead bodies and cleanses the earth.
I read an article supporting this idea that was written by a professor at Walla Walla who is now deceased. I can't remember his name. That's where I first got the idea and it makes a lot of sense to me. Here's why.
1. First if eternal death is the fires of Hell, then Jesus burned in a literal Hell. I'm not sure we would agree with that; if we did, how long did he burn for? Would he not have scars of the burning on him just like the marks in his hands? It seems the second death was the separation He experienced from His Father and which actually killed Him. He didn't die on the cross and then go to Hell to burn until Sunday morning. He slept.
2. Secondly, if people are punished by degrees (supported by Luke 12:47, 48 and by the writings of Ellen White), God would need to work a miracle to keep the fires from burning them up. Under normal circumstances, a person cannot burn for a long time. Fires end people's lives fairly quickly (even the ancient burnings at the stake, awful as they were, would likely last minutes, not even hours). The idea of God keeping people alive to torture them in the fire is abhorrent to me. It's better than eternal hell but still makes God to be a sadist. If we wouldn't execute people by burning and are horrified that governments once did this, it seems impossible that God would use such a method.
The article I read suggests that the suffering the lost experience will depend on how hardened they are. Those most rebellious and guilty will have many more sins to process when they accept that God is just. As a result, they will suffer mental anguish (which is what Jesus suffered for us) much longer. Satan, being the most responsible for sin, will have the most to suffer for. This makes sense to me.
I believe Angel Rodriguez formerly of the Biblical Research Institute suggested something somewhat similar and suggested that sinners will suffer mentally until they accept that they deserve to die and accept that judgment. Again, the rebellious will find this most difficult to do and so they will suffer longer than others who will die almost immediately because they are less hardened. Again, Satan will be the last to submit to God's judgment so he will suffer the longest.
Either of these two options makes a lot of sense to me and I think is actually more biblical than the idea that Hell fire kills people.
I've learnt about the eternal fire as being a punishment of eternal consequences, a metaphoric term, because physically dealing with fire, it exists only until it oxidises organic substances to ashes completely, then it is quenched. Today, our choices can have eternal consequences too, towards to either abundant life or ending existence. May we work to find real wisdom and knowledge to choose well, through a relationship with the One Who became like us, and knows us even before we were born.
I remember a well-known Adventist Evangelist said, that “the Seventh-day Adventist hell is hotter, because it burns the people up.” Meaning that the literal flames in hell will kill the wicked, but the Evangelicals believe that the flames will not kill the wicked, but burn them eternally.
I used to agree with those sentiments, but describing a God who burns (tortures) people to death, even for a short time is not a picture of a loving God. SdA’s thought we had the answer by making God a short-term torturer than an eternal one. We are so immersed in the justice system of our world that we believe pain and punishment is the right course of action for the wicked or law breakers, but God’s justice is nothing like this worlds, His ways and thoughts are much higher!
The Bible says in Rev. 20:14 that “death and hell (grave) were cast into the lake fire.” But how can people alive be thrown in the lake of fire as well, if death/hell is going in there? Death is not an entity or a person, neither can a grave (hell) be “cast” anywhere. These are symbolic to the fact that these concepts will no longer exist in the new earth. But if we (SdA’s) believe that people will go into the lake of fire alive and burn to death is directly contrary to scripture.
God does not burn people alive with literal flames. What is the purpose of this temporary torture? How does it benefit the wicked or the redeemed? The wicked cannot even think or contemplate their rejection of Christ while burning, they will only scream in agony. The redeemed does not benefit from this either, are they supposed to be satisfied with the torture?? And if this “literal” fire is kindled by God, I think that would be an extremely HOT fire! So, God would have to simultaneously do a miracle of restoration AND destruction in order for the wicked to burn alive EVEN for a short time!
Our misunderstanding of the character of God is where all this begins, because if we believe that God is capable of destruction and destroying His creation it is no stretch of the imagination that we will believe that He can burn people alive, too.
Benjamin, I believe that your doubt regarding the "lake of fire" being literal fire is quite justified, considering that Revelation is replete with symbols and metaphors. And this particular metaphor seems to suggest complete annihilation of all that is wrong in this world, as you point out.
The Bible repeatedly ascribes destruction of sin and necessarily sinners who refuse to let go of sin, to a "fire." You added the "torture" and "burn alive." The Bible mentions neither.
Please consider that even now we know of various kinds of "fire," and some of it kills instantly (think atomic bomb). Some "fire" even kills without burning up the body or clothes - like lightning.
I also believe that emotional and mental suffering can be much more severe than physical suffering. Thus I think that the rebels against God's government may suffer different lengths of time, depending on how long it takes them to process their own history in light of missing out on eternity. I believe each person will have a distinct memory of each opportunity for salvation slighted as well as the evil they have done. They will finally come to the conclusion that God is both merciful and just in excluding them from heaven and annihilating them. (Note that Rev. 6:15-16 demonstrates that the wicked would rather die than be in the presence of God.) And when God uses fire to annihilate the rebels, the watching universe will understand that a God of love has no other choice for those who would not allow themselves to be saved.
Hi, Inge
I guess you'll be surprised that I believe that the lake of fire is actually a literal fire. I just don't believe that this fire will kill people with its flames, but that it will consume everything dead and inanimate left on this earth that wasn't redeemed. The lake of fire doesn't kill it cleanses the earth from what has already been killed.
You say that I added the "torture" and "burn alive" elements, because the Bible mentions neither. You are correct, the Bible doesn't use those terms, but how else can a person understand people "weeping", "gnashing teeth", "suffer", etc. all these terms are used in the Bible if you don't like the ones I used. This clearly, and simply lines up with the idea of torture, especially if this pain is caused by fire. You bring up these alternative methods of fire, that the Bible doesn't mention for the wicked, like "lightning" or "atomic bombs." The Bible is clearly speaking of fire, flames, ashes, burning like an oven, etc. There is no reason to bring up those other methods, because we both know that is not the case.
I agree that the emotional and mental suffering is much more severe. This is the pain that killed Jesus on Calvary. There was no literal fire that killed Christ, but an emotional one.
I also agree that many will suffer various lengths of time due to their own works, God has not arbitrarily set a time for individuals to suffer. If it was a literal fire that would kill the wicked, they would all die at the same time.
You seem to still hold to the traditional belief that God annihilates people. You say that my point about a non-literal fire is justified, but you still think there is a fire that God kindles that will kill the wicked anyway?
Dear Benjamin
I can see your idea on the nature of God and I like it (I have it too). The ideas you raised make me remember Isaiah 28:21 (it is called "His strange work," and we can see He is Love in that work as well). With your concept of hellfire and the nature of God, how can one understand the flood of Genesis 7 and the punishment for Sodom and Gomorrah of Genesis 18? (If we can win by faith today, then one day He will explain it to us)!
Eternal fire.
Many years ago a fellow believer told me that there are coal mines in Pennsylvania which have been burning for 30 years. I said so Hell quits burning when the fuel is exhausted or burnt up. He said exactly my point.
When stubble is burnt up it takes a shout time to burn. Unlike Sodom and Gamorah which took longer. Both were burnt up, consumed or destroyed, even overthrew is afitting word in the supporting context.
And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
Genesis 19:25 ESV.
In the words of Jon Paulien, "It would be unwise to make a theological commitment if it egnores evidence to the contrary."
Jude 7 gives an example of eternal fire.
Like Sodom and Gomorrah and cities around them.
I think it was quite literal a destruction by fire.
2Peter 3:6-7,10-13 compares it to Noah and the flood.
What God did with the flood, He will do again this time with fire.
I believe the flood was literal.
The fire at the end of the 1000 years doesn't just destroy all sinners (and in Great Controversy they actually turn on each other and God ends the carnage once and for all with fire) but it also cleanses the earth -- burning up all the garbage and pollution that accumulated over the ages. It's a complete destruction and cleansing of all evidences of sin, which is followed by everything recreated and made new.
I really think it will be literal.
There are so many ideas in the comments here! Might it be possible to combine some of them? "Eternal fire" meaning something with eternal consequences might just the way certain ancient cultures and languages expressed things. So, how is that a metaphor?
What if the fire is real, and causes the death of the wicked, but they are not allowed to die until their suffering has satisfied the legitimate claims of justice? What if their mental anguish is so great that their physical pain is hardly felt? That's what Jesus took for us, on the cross, is it not? But they have contemptuously refused His atonement!
What if the outcome for the finally impenitent is exactly what their own choices have necessitated, and the degree of each person's punishment is anything but arbitrary -- and yet it is meted out in accordance with the decisions that have been made by the redeemed, in union with Christ, during the thousand years? Can't inherent consequences be actively inflicted?
And what if God's justice is as much a part of His love, as is His mercy?
If what you are suggesting is true, then the picture accompanying today's lesson will be the reality we will have to witness...
Have we stopped to consider what it is within humans that feels/believes that justice is not satisfied unless the right amount of inflicted suffering has been experienced? Are we sure that what we call 'justice' is not just revenge?
Does Luke 9:51-55, Matthew 5:44-45, Deuteronomy 32:35 and Micah 6:8 give us any insight into what God's justice might be about and/or based upon?
Just wondering...
I believe in the book “The Great Controversy” that the last chapter “The Controversy Ended” sheds some light on this subject.
Thanks, Micheal, for that excellent suggestion. I highly recommend to all our readers to review that chapter, as I have just done. If you do not own a copy of the Great Controversy, you can pick up a digital or hard copy by touching/clicking on the link.
But you can also read it for 100% free here: Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended.
It is a truly riveting read!
The desire for justice is very real and I think it makes sense that we seek it. At the same time, I don't want to decide how much the lost will be punished, especially if it involves something horrific like being burned in the fire. Will I want to understand why people are lost? Most definitely, but beyond that, I leave it to God. And in the end, does God really decide how much people are punished? Sin is it's own punishment, really, and the degree of punishment will match the sin for that reason. I'm not sure that even God will need to make a decision about how much people are punished.
In the end, the biggest punishment is the same for all - they missed out. It didn't have to be that way. They could have been saved and they weren't. And I feel God's heart will break over that reality. I don't think His focus will be on how much he needs to punish this one or that one.
Hi Christina,
You wrote:
I agree totally. And maybe we should not focus on that either, but leave it to God to work out how to administer justice to the rebels in this universe. There is much that is not plain to us now that we will understand in the hereafter.
Have you ever read the last chapter in The Great Controversy by Ellen White? If not I suggest you read it and see if it makes sense to you. And if you have read it before, why not read it again? "Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended"
I see what you are saying, Christina, but have you thought of this angle? What about carefully examining each case in order to see how little each one can be allowed to suffer in Gehenna, and still satisfy justice? Wouldn't that be more like the God we know and love?
Hello R.G.
What does it mean to satisfy justice? What is the purpose of Godly justice? Does God’s wrath have anything to do with His justice? Or, is suffering of the unredeemed their own choice? Or have I misunderstood your comments?
Yes, you may have misunderstood my comments, Gary. They were only intended to explain, for those who might benefit, what I have gleaned from that which has been clearly revealed in the written word. The answers to your questions seem to go well beyond that, into the realm of opinion, except to say that, yes, the finally impenitent will have destroyed themselves and brought on their own suffering. Thank God that He has made a way of escape for all of us!
Hi, Phil. Good questions! You wrote:
Indeed, sadly this is true. But, according to Revelation 15:2-4 (NKJV), this will be our reaction:
Even the lost have to admit that their fate is only right and necessary.
Then you ask:
When Cain had murdered Abel, God said to him:
In my book, that's a nice, poetic way of saying that Cain's actions were a call for justice, and that this call resonated within the heart of God Himself. So, it seems to me that a sense of justice "within humans" could potentially be a reflection of the divine.
As for how we can be sure that, in the end, it will not devolve into an unjustified "revenge," I would first consider that the redeemed do not act independently of Christ. Besides, by the time we get to heaven, we are already fully conformed to His character.
With this in view, I'd have to say that my personal assurance that justice will be real, and not "just revenge," depends on the degree of my confidence in the character of the One who gave Himself on the cross to redeem the very ones who will ultimately leave Him with no choice but to punish and annihilate them. The very fact that Christ had to suffer what He did, in order to redeem us, tells me that God's character of love will not allow Him to compromise the justice that requires every sin to meet its rightful "wages."
Do those texts you have cited give us any insight into the basis of God's justice? Yes, indeed they do. It's based on love! As to the full nature of justice, I'd say that we cannot fully penetrate the mind of the divine, but we know that we can fully trust our heavenly Father!
If I may add a thought: I mentioned in another comment that I believe that the "spirit" God breathed into Adam included a likeness to the Creator, with the ability for thought, creativity, action, morality, a sense of justice, etc.
I believe this sense of justice is even more fundamental than a sense of right and wrong, based on my experience with children. It seems to me that most children learn "right and wrong" from their environment, but a sense of justice seems built in.
I still remember an incident with our eldest son with some amusement. I taught him, since he was just a baby, that he was responsible for controlling his hands and feet so they would not be "naughty." When a hand did something "wrong," I expressed regret that my punishing that hand would hurt him. So please keep better watch over that hand. So this one time, when he had just learned to toddle, he had pulled books out of a book shelf that he had been forbidden to touch. I reminded him of the rule, but said nothing more. However, he toddled over to me and dutifully held out the offending hand to be punished. I confess I had a very difficult time maintaining a serious expression because I had only intended to remind him. But his sense of justice told him that his hand deserved punishment. (After 50 years, I can still see his little contrite face in my mind's eye.) I decided that it was better not to disappoint his sense of justice than to explain that I didn't mean to do anything. So yes, I "spanked" his hand. He probably shed some tears, but his sense of justice was satisfied.
This "sense of justice" appears to be innate in every human being, no matter what their cultural background. That sense is represented by the "scales of justice" that are common in western culture. (I can't currently think of a symbol in other cultures. Maybe someone else can help.) It seems to be part of the "light" that God shines into every human being. (John 1:9) This sense of justice seems fundamental to our sense of right and wrong.
And that sense of justice will be satisfied by God's final disposition of sin. I don't think it's profitable to go too deeply into the details - but just trust that God knows what He is doing, and we shall all be satisfied.
I do believe there's a danger in the alternative - a danger we already see illustrated in our society by people who don't seem to believe in an afterlife. They seem to think that if they don't live moral lives, they may as well steal and kill and rape as they please, because there are no consequences. (In some of our American cities there are literally no consequences.) Thus, if a child with a hopelessly warped personality, largely due to heredity, meets precisely the same fate as the worst criminal in earth's history, why would selfish people stop with just minor selfish actions? While the teaching of no differences in consequences for various sinners may not be as damaging as the teaching of eternal torture, I believe it also misrepresents the character of God, as represented in Scripture.
I believe that the vast majority of the earth's population rebel in spirit against the fundamental injustice of crimes against humanity not being punished at all, and I believe that God will make it very evident that He is not only righteous but also just.
See also Ps. 85:10; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Psalm 91:83; Rev. 20:12; Rev. 18:8; Heb. 13:4; Heb. 10:30; Rom. 2:16; Acts 17:31; 2 Chron 6:23; Rev. 6:10
Thanks R G for taking the time to respond and elaborate further what you believe and the basis for why you believe that. Appreciated.
Thanks Inge for also outlining what you believe and why.
Thanks for these well researched replies, to help friends who believe God tortures lost in eternal fiery furnace. Some are coming from a viewpoint of fear and terror at the thought of being thrown into hell.
For me hearing some sermons, its not eternal torture, its only punisment for every sin, gives me no peace of mind either hearing "some ppl who sinned more than others burn longer", a quote from Great Controversy ch 42, also sounds like God is torturing lost.
(Now after this lesson study, I see this cos Satan and Demons ate from the tree of life longer, so they have a stronger body than us, therefore last longer)
Recently realising, "our God who is a consuming fire", equates with His goodness, holiness and love. In whose presence instantly destroys sin in any person. Peace at last!
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
The lake of "Fire coming down from heaven" at the Millennium's end is His loving goodness, is NOT a punishment but a consequence or side effects of untransformed life.
Revelation 20.9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
Nothing more important to me now then focusing on the plan of Salvation. Our good Father God just wants to bring all His children backhome to live in His home forever and Jesus has made the greatest sacrifice to prepare us to live in His everlasting burnings at peace
Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid;
fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
I know this is very late to reply in regard to these comments, but I have enjoyed reading all of them so much. I have been an Adventist all my life over 60 years and I have always believed that God will litterally burn sinners alive to end their life after the millenium. I have been researching and studying the concept of fire in scripture and that God is a consuming fire, for the last 6-12 months.
I have come to realise that God is Love and how could he do such a monstrous thing like this. I came to the bible text of Malachi 4:1. I had to read this many times to get what it was realy saying. I might be wrong on this but it has to be asked how did the wicked get to become stubble in the first place and then they are burned up. It seems to me that as some have rightly commented here that their sins consume them as well as God removing is life sustaining force they die of their own choices.
hope someone may comment on this
Hello Pat! An example that I often use is that verse you referenced,(Hebrews 12:29) Our God is a consuming fire against sin. Think of sin as being combustible material like gasoline. If I am careless around fire, say I have spilled gasoline on myself and I get in the presence of a bonfire, the fire will ignite the gas on my clothing. It's similar spiritually, if we are covered in sin (combustible material) in the presence of a Holy God, we will burn, because we have allowed our sin stained clothes (character) to not be covered by the Robe of Christ's Righteousness. Christ's Robe is purifying and fireproof. Why didn't the three Hebrews burn up in Nebuchanezzar's furnace? Because Christ was with them. Only the ropes that bound them were consumed.
I know this is very late to reply in regard to these comments, but I have enjoyed reading all of them so much. I have been an SDA all my life over 60 years and I hve always believed that God will litterally burn sinners alive to end their life after the millenium. I have been researching and studying the concept of fire in scripture and that God is a consuming fire, for the last 6-12 months.
I have come to realise that God is Love and how could he do such a monstrous thing like this. I came to the bible text of Malachi 4:1. I had to read this many times to get what it was realy saying. I might be wrong on this but it has to be asked how did the wicked get to become stubble in the first place and then they are burned up. It seems to me that as some have rightly commented here that their sins consume them as well as God removing is life sustaining force they die of their own choices.
hope someone may comment on this
Hi Tim Im still a little confused though in regard to how the wicked actually die. I like the way you have said that sin is combustible. are you saying that they physically catch on fire and die? The way I see it is that they phisically give up, God withdraws His life sustaining Spirit from them and they stop breathing theres no actual material flames that kill them, am I on the right path here do you think.
Please comment on Malachi 4:1 am I correct in seeing the wicked perish as stubble first and then being burned up once they are dead?
Hello Pat. It is a complicated subject. Here's what we do know from scripture. God is a loving and patient God, who doesn't desire anyone to perish. (2 Pet 3:9) The Lake of fire was never intended for people,(Matthew 25:41) unfortunately they choose it by rejecting God, the source of life, and rejecting the payment of the penalty of their sins by Jesus.
It, the destruction of the wicked is called God's strange act. (Isa 28:21) The Redeemed are judging the world including fallen angels (1 Cor. 6:3) Picture the scene in heaven, the books are opened. The Redeemed get to see why certain people aren't saved. God is a transparent God, not hiding anything from anyone. Many might even say, "yes, but, if you only gave them one more chance, I'm sure they would repent." So the second resurrection happens. What happens? Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead (the unsaved) lived not again until the thousand years were finished". They then are marshalled by Satan to surround "the camp of the Saints". (Rev. 20:9) Then fire destroys them, not continually punishes them. Is this fire arbitrary on God's part, or is it because possibly God appears standing on the wall of the New Jerusalem and His consuming fire to sin presence, consumes them because they are sinful? Ultimately, the end result is Malachi 4:1. After a wild fire the grass is burned to the ground leaving only stubble.
Consider the plight of the lost if they were allowed into heaven. For the sake of argument only, because we know it's not possible. But consider how torturous it would be for them to be in a totally holy and righteous environment. It would be "hell" to them. So the destruction of the lost is in many ways a merciful act on God's part. Keep in mind that God takes no pleasure in this act. I'm sure it pains Him greatly.
I wrote lyrics to a song some years ago called, "Who Will Wipe Away His Tears". The gist of the song is that Revelation 21:4 says that God will wipe away our tears, probably from the destruction of the lost. But I raise the question in the song, who will wipe away His (God's) tears? I don't want to be the cause of God's tears. I would want to wipe away His tears and comfort Him that He did everything that He could to save them but they refused to be saved.
I would like to refer you to a very good resource on this subject.
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hell-fire
The Amazing Facts Ministry has several excellent resources on this and many other Bible subjects.