Sunday: The Ministry of Moses
All through the Bible, the presence of Moses is felt. And though he’s not mentioned until Exodus 2:2, he had written the book of Genesis, God’s authoritative and foundational story of who we are, how we got here, why things are as bad as they are, and yet, why we can hope anyway. Creation, the Fall, the promise of redemption, the Flood, Abraham, the gospel — all have their roots in Genesis, and its author was the prophet Moses. It’s hard to gauge adequately the influence that this one man, hardly flawless, was nevertheless able to exert for God because He loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him.
Read Exodus 32:29-32, which records the conversation between the Lord and Moses after the terrible sin of the golden calf. What insight does this story teach us about the character of Moses and why, despite whatever flaws he had, the Lord was able to use him in such a mighty way?
Image © Kim Justinen at Goodsalt.com
Even though Moses had nothing to do with the sin, he sought to intercede for this sinful people, even being willing to lose his own soul on their behalf. Fascinatingly enough, in Exodus 32:32, when Moses asks God to “forgive their sin,” the verb actually means “to bear.” Thus, Moses — understanding the gravity of sin and what it took to atone for it — asked God indeed to “bear” their sin. And that is because this is the only way, ultimately, that their sin, any sin, could be forgiven.
Thus, here we have, early in the Bible, a powerful expression of substitution, in which God Himself, in the person of Jesus, will bear in Himself the full brunt and penalty of our sin — God’s preordained way of salvation for humanity while remaining true to the principles of His government and law.
Indeed, many centuries later Peter would write about Jesus: “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).
Meanwhile, what we see in this story of Moses and his reaction to their sin is Moses in the role of intercessor on behalf of a fallen, sinful people, a precursor to what Jesus will also do for us (see Hebrews 7:25).
| Willing to lose his own soul for his people? Think more about the implications of those words. What can we learn from them for ourselves about what it means truly to love others? |
(29)
When I was a child, Polio was regarded with some considerable fear. It caused paralysis, particularly of the muscles associated with breathing. Often patients ended up in hospital in an iron lung, a rather noisy contraption that encased the whole torso and assisted the person to breathe. Polio particularly affected children and often, after recovery, children were left with arms and legs that no longer operated properly. Even today, I have friends who are my age and have arms that do not work properly after all this time as a result of childhood polio. One of the families in our extended family was infected by polio and two of the children were bed-ridden for some time. Their mother, nursed them through their illness until they recovered, but she caught the disease herself and died as a result.
Mothers are typically willing to sacrifice themselves for their children. They gave birth to them and mother-love is one of the finest examples we have of the sort of self-sacrificing love that Moses demonstrated when he was willing to lose his own soul for the people that he has brought out of Egypt.
Just the other day on the news, here in Australia, a father rescued his two children from a dangerous swimming situation, but in the process went into cardiac arrest and could not be revived. He sacrificed his life to save the lives of his children.
All of these examples tell us something of the self-sacrificing love of Jesus, who died so we can be saved.
One of the perennial questions that comes to my mind is why do we so often hear salvation expressed in terms of what to we gain out of it. If the basis of salvation is self-sacrificing love, what does that mean for the life of a saved person? What manner of person ought we to be?
Jesus said:
Present Truth from today's lesson...
Is Jesus our Substitute? Absolutely. But how is He our Substitute and what is the nature of that substitution?
The predominant view within Christianity is that Jesus is our Substitute in terms of the one who was vicariously punished for our sins instead of us. This view is based upon the idea that justice is about breaches of law being punished via application of imposed punishment (ie addition of punishment that otherwise wouldn't inherently happen). This view appears to align with the sacrificial system.
However, this view does not align with the full understanding of the 2nd Adam. I would propose that the metaphor of Jesus as the 2nd Adam and the metaphor of Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world are two parallel metaphors referring to exactly the same actual reality regarding Jesus as our Substitute. So what is the reality of Jesus as the 2nd Adam?
The reality of the 2nd Adam is linked to that of the 1st Adam? The 1st Adam was the head of humanity and started out from a position of possessing abundant life which at its most fundamental appears to be contingent upon 2 basic preconditions:
1) Maintenance of love/trust-based connection with God as the Source of the (ongoingly provided) breath of life, and
2) Maintenance of absolute harmony with ('obedience' to) the 'mechanisms' (laws/principle-constants) through which life is governed (or through which God governs life if you prefer).
Adam and Eve were in complete harmony with these essential preconditions up until the time described by Genesis 3:6. In that moment, in response to The Serpent's deception-based temptation (Genesis 3:13), they made a decision (or a cluster of decisions) that put them out of harmony with these preconditions. Thus Adam and Eve went from living in accordance with "the law of the Spirit of life" to instead aligning themselves with "the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2). In Galatians 6:7,8, Paul points out that under the law of sin and death, death is the effect/reaping and factors from within the flesh are the cause/sowing. Compare this with God's 'diagnosis and prognosis' of the same cause and inherent effect phenomenon in Jeremiah 2:13,17,19,20 and David's awareness of such in Psalm 1.
So the 1st Adam, as the initial representative head of the human species, failed to retain connection with life (Romans 5:12-14) via being out of harmony with ('disobedient' to) the preconditions essential for life. What is going to actually fix this (ie heal: Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24)? A 2nd - substitute - Adam is going to need to re-walk the exact same path of the 1st Adam and instead succeed at the point at which the 1st Adam failed. The 1st Adam was tempted and 'fell'. The 2nd Adam would similarly need to face temptation and succeed via holding to being in harmony with (ie 'obedient' to) the above-outlined preconditions that abundant life is contingent upon. Romans 5:19 tells us that this is precisely what reversed/repaired the fall of the 1st Adam. And Philippians 2:8 further unpacks the nature of this obedience - holding to adherence to the 2 preconditions for life no matter what temptation was presented to do otherwise - even the temptation to avoid death on a cross.
The 2nd Adam paid a huge price stepping down and becoming our Substitute. This was a huge sacrifice. And the 2nd Adam also paid a huge price in the course of countering absolutely every temptation that was thrown at Him by Satan - temptations that were not just contained to the wilderness (as per Philippians 2:5-8). In failing to resort to self-preservation, Jesus was exposed to pain, suffering and abuse on multiple levels. I therefore propose that this is how Jesus, our Substitute 2nd Adam and Lamb of God, bore the full brunt humanity's sin condition in order to bring about healing of humanity's otherwise terminal condition (as per 1 Peter 2:24; Isaiah 53:5,12; 2 Corinthians 5:18,19,21).
As per Acts 17:11, I offer the above only that you may then check for yourself what I have outlined to see if it is so.
In brief reply, Salvation "by grace through faith" is as follows as far as I have learned it from Scripture:
When I sinned, I was found guilty by the law of God and the wages for this is death(Rom 6:23; 7:7, 1 John 1:9). Nothing less than my death will fulfill(satisfy) the justice of God's "perfect" law(Ps 19:7, Eze 18:4, John 8:24).
Jesus offered His pure, holy life for my polluted life as a substitute death for MY sin(1 Cor 15:3, John 3:14-16). God accepts this propitiating sacrifice, and without making void His perfect law/will, pardons me IF by faith I repent and believe in Jesus(Justification)(Rom 3:24-26). How does one "believe in Jesus"? I follow Him through His teachings and example, and with the power of the promised holy Spirit, I may live again the holy life Adam lost when he sinned(Sanctification)(Matt 16:24, John 17:17).
Without Jesus' death for my sin, my life must be forfeited and eternal death would be my wages(as cited already above).
Regarding Jesus as the 2nd Adam, Romans 5 is misunderstood more than realized, and must be read in the context of Romans 1-8, as an integral part that does not stand alone. How is Jesus the 2nd Adam? Like the 1st Adam, what He did will affect everyone who descends from Him. While the 1st affects us whether or not we have faith, the 2nd affects us only by faith(John 3:16; 8:24, Rom 3:25). If one will read Romans 1-8, this will be clear. Jesus' blood and perfect obedience affects no one without faith. Faith is demonstrated/exercised by repentance, followed by obedience(through the Truth and the power of the Spirit).
I cannot be forgiven(justified) without Jesus' blood in the place of my blood. I cannot be holy(sanctified) without Truth and the Holy Spirit. Can we see why the solemn warning in Revelation 6:6, "and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine"?
I should add that Jesus' righteousness covers me in being justified(imputed), but I must partake of that righteousness to be sanctified(imparted). Neither will take place without faith, and couldn't take place if Jesus had not died for my sin.
Hi Robert
Thanks for your comment.
Lest people mistakenly think you and I are merely arguing, at the end of the day, each of us needs to be fully persuaded in our own minds (Romans 14:5b; Philippians 3:15b). Therefore I appreciate that each of us are outlining what we are convicted about so that others can explore the options for themselves (Acts 17:11). For some, their faith-walk will be strengthened by the views you are presenting. For others, their faith-walk is strengthened by some of the points I am raising. I know you and I respect each other and therefore demonstrate that there can be differences in perspectives that can be constructively discussed without there being animosity between us. I believe that is very important and therefore I thank you for that.
None of what I have written is inconsistent with any of the verses you have provided - so I agree with all of them. As we are aware, the difference lies in the conception of what God's justice is - whether it is fundamentally based on the same foundation as our human justice (breaches of law must be appropriately punished in order to be 'fair') or whether it is an entirely different paradigm (that which has become broken and therefore terminal needs to be healed otherwise it inherently remains terminal and will therefore perish).
If God's justice is based upon the idea that breaching his law must be punished, then that raises some challenges to God's way being freedom-based. Is there actually freedom if someone requires that things be done their way otherwise you (or a substitute) will be punished by them if you don't comply? Just a thought.
I agree that Romans 5 exists within context of Romans 1-8. I am not aware of anything I have written in regard to the 2nd Adam as out of harmony with those wider chapters. Hence my also drawing heavily upon Romans 8:2 and Galatians. There are other elements comprising the totality of salvation that I have previously outlinedbut was not able to re-include in my comment above due to length of comment limitations.
Thank you for your thoughts Phil. I like the idea that we are sharing our individual views in order to come to a perfect unity of understanding Truth.
I guess my question is how does the blood of Jesus propitiate, since that is what Paul specifies in Rom 3:24-26? Also, does Jesus' death "pay the penalty(wages)" for my sin or not?
What you promote regarding punishment vs fixing the problem is not really a judgment question is it? The judgment will address the final choice after probation closes, and will determine whether or not I was fixed or chose to remain broken. Before the judgment, the time of probation allows the sinner to accept the offer to be fixed, and the blood of Jesus is the reason that this possibility(to be fixed) even exists. Why? Because all have sinned, and therefore, owe a debt to the Law/justice of God/Righteousness, and unless this debt is met by some other means, the sinner must die(Eze 18:4). This is where Jesus' death meets justice through mercy(Ps 85:10), allowing me to be fixed and presented "faultless" before God(Jude 1:24).
As a sinner, I see this as Good News! For without the blood of Jesus, every sinner must die for their sin. The only other option is to nullify the Law of the Lord(which is perfect).
Robert, what do you see as the primary purpose of the final judgment. Who is primarily being judged?
You imply that the final judgment isn't really part of "fixing the problem." I find that surprising.
Our understanding of the primary purpose of he judgment will likely affect how we see aspects of the judgment. What do you read in Romans 3:4 on this subject?
Fair question Inge. First did you mean to say "What...do you see as the primary purpose..."? I will assume you did and answer accordingly.
The primary purpose of the final judgments(there are two "final" judgments) is to reveal who was "fixed" and who declined the gracious offer to be "fixed". As illustrated by the story of the flood, once the door was closed, no one could then enter the safety of the ark, and the flood revealed one group safe and the other group exposed to the elements of "wrath"(no, not anger or vengeance, because if God was "angry", would He have offered everyone the safety of the ark?).
Judgment only defines the reality of who is or isn't fixed, and does not "fix" anything other than allowing the universe to be rid of sin/sinners for good, to the agreement of all involved.
Probation exists(before judgment is rendered) so that all who choose to, might be fixed, and thus able to dwell in the presence of God's unveiled glory "with exceeding joy", without the fear exhibited by (unfixed)sinners at the presence of God(Rev 6:15-17).
Who is judged? Eccl 12:13,14 tells us everyone. The just are examined in the "pre-advent"(or investigative) judgment before Jesus comes so they may receive their "reward"(Rev 22:12) at His coming, and the unjust are judged during the "1000 years" of Rev 20, and will be judged by all the redeemed as well as angels, God, Christ, and the unfallen worlds. In other words, the wicked will be examined by God's entire kingdom/government, and at the end, all will proclaim justice is served. How else could there be no more sin in a government of free will?
Inge, you will need to elaborate on your last question and the related passage cited(Acts 3:4). I don't understand what you are suggesting in relation to that passage.
Thanks, Robert. I agree as far as you go, but I believe the judgment of humanity is subsidiary to the judgment of God by the universe. I meant to reference Romans 3:4 instead of Acts 3:4. (I have now corrected the error.)
Consider what is at stake in the controversy between Christ and Satan. Is it not the character of God and His Law? (Essentially that is but one issue, since the Law of God reflects the character of God, and we read that His very character IS love. 1 John 4:8) In that light the meaning of Romans 3:4b is clear. Here Paul speaks of God being "justified" when He is "judged," referring back to Psalm 51:4.
That is why I consider that the judgment of humanity is subsidiary to the judgment of God by the created universe. God is justified in His children who are "fixed." When that becomes clear, the judgment that "Thou art worthy" will swell from the voices around the throne to the far corners of the universe. (Read Revelation 5 to see how this judgment progresses outward from the throne of God.)
That is why the final judgment is not only a part of "fixing the problem," but its very conclusion. God's character was questioned even before Eden, but in the temptation to Eve, Lucifer clearly insinuated that God is not good - that He is withholding something good from humanity. Essentially, he was projecting his own character of self-centeredness on the Creator. In the final judgment all the universe declares that God is just and good and worthy of all praise.
Does that make sense to you?
Hi Robert
In response to your question: "What you promote regarding punishment vs fixing the problem is not really a judgment question is it?"
I would respectfully propose it absolutely is a judgment question. How? Why? Consistent with what Inge has mentioned, I keep the Great Controversy as the overarching framework because that's where this mess we are currently immersed within all started - 'ground zero' - and it inherently provides/contains the 'terms of reference'. Hence its being a controversy (Greek - polemos: Revelation 12:7).
And I would propose that the core issue of the Great Controversy that underpins all other issues implicated within this Controversy is insinuated allegation (the highest form of deception) regarding the integrity of the nature and character of both God and 'His Ways'. Thus absolutely every single aspect of God and 'His Ways' are implicated in this all-encompassing allegation. This includes (but is not limited to) the nature and character of His law along with the nature and character of every single aspect of every single action God takes or doesn't take - including not only His judgments but the means by which God makes those judgments. If only one single micro-questionable way or aspect could be found within this, God's integrity would be suspect for eternity. This is a really big issue.
Considering the magnitude of what is at stake - eternal 'peace of mind' security of every single member of creation, how is God's integrity going to be established for eternity beyond absolutely any shadow of doubt? Could it be that every single aspect of God and His Ways is going to need to be revealed (1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 15:4) so they can be micro-scrutinised by every member of creation in order for each member to render their resultant 'judgment'/finding that every aspect of God and His Ways is nothing but inherently "Just and True" in nature and character, not just in outcome (Revelation 15:3)?
Something to ponder: What are created beings to use as the reference point for such appraisal of God and His Ways in order to come the to their own indisputable conclusion that God's Ways are Just and True? Would God's self-declaration and self-determination of such suffice?
Phil, I have addressed the "punishment vs fixing", and the relation to judgment above, and would only conclude that God offers the fix while warning of the punishment of the unfixed(by rejecting His sovereignty), leaving the choice to us. The judgment will only prove which choice each individual made.
Regarding "what are created beings to use...for...appraisal of God...?": Truth.
Truth: God made all things("very good"), and as the Sovereign, has established a government with a ("perfect")law.
Truth: creatures are free to choose between God's government or self government, with foreknowledge of the final "reward" in either case, because God's sovereignty is everlasting, and following probation's close will execute His Sovereign will to the joy of His faithful subjects who "delight to do [His] will".
Truth: sinners will discover themselves in violation of God's law and deserving of the "wages" which result from sinning(lawlessness/transgression), yet God freely offers to all an escape from death through the gospel which He has provided in Christ.
In these general Truths the ways of God are shown to be "just and true", as all will acknowledge at the final judgment.
Regarding God's works, closer examination and interaction with His works, and the greater our understanding of them, will prove how "great and marvelous" they are, especially as observed in the demonstration of a soul saved from sin, who partakes of the divine nature by the "exceeding great and precious promises" of God.
Yet in all of this, "none of the wicked shall understand" if rejecting the offer of Divine Grace by persisting in sin/self-government. The Truth revealed in the final judgment will convince them.
Phil, you write,
Is there freedom of choice in a country that has laws forbidding murder and stealing, if punishment is inflicted for breaking those laws? What about laws regarding speeding on the highway? Are we free to speed if there is a fine inflicted for speeding?
In order for language to communicate, we must work with the same working definitions. Thus your reply would be useful.
Inge and Phil, while I did not address that comment in my reply, it certainly deserves proper understanding.
God offers freedom in the Law(Jas 2:12), because there is no liberty in sin(Rom 6:16). The freedom is found in being able to choose to obey or not. However, this will result in a final "reward" either way. Life belongs to all who conform(by free choice) with the Sovereign, and no life for all who desire to live apart from the Sovereign, who alone gives life. So there is absolute freedom in either choice since all may choose for themselves, and the final outcome is disclosed with the choice granted.
The problem for those who choose to defy God's rule is that there is no other Life-giver, and when choosing to decline the Life-giver, one is choosing death(Prov 8:36). There are only two realms in the universe: Life or Death. Living soul, or dust. And each is free to choose. God does not force any to live in His government.
As it was in the days of Noah, the freedom to choose is granted to all: the ark, or the tempest.
Thanks, Robert, we are definitely reading from the same page here.
It seems to me that you are agreeing that God's law is not arbitrary. That violation of His Law results in the natural consequence of death, because it is a choice to be independent of/separated from the only Life-Giver.
Thanks for requesting clarification Inge. The sentence you have quoted was written for a particular purpose and in relation to a particular context - namely the nature of God's justice as per Robert's comments to me that I was replying to. Your question takes that sentence and applies it to a situation that my statement was not intended to be applied to.
With regard to your scenario, I agree completely with the issue you are raising as regarding human application of 'justice'. This opens the door to what is a very complex topic that is well beyond the scope of what can be adequately covered in a single succinct comment. So, we will likely need to look at such at another point in more detail.
Phil - thank you for your thought provoking contributions to this blog. We rely on the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit as our proof-basis for the dissemination of heavenly, spiritual Truth. Man within himself cannot perceive or formulate Truth; the Spirit reveals it, though - "... now we see in a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three, but the greatest of these is LOVE"- 1Cor.13:12-13KJV.
When learning about heavenly Truth, Love is my point of focus. Relating to your last paragraph: May I ask you to consider another way to see the 2nd Adam's work on behalf of our Salvation by Faith through Grace.
You consider Christ Jesus to have paid a "huge sacrifice", a "huge price" by not resisting those who condemned His body to die.
I propose that He wanted/needed/desired/planned to demonstrate the vast superiority of the power of God's Love - Heaven's chosen Way to administer justice when dealing with rebellion and resulting sin, and so made known to heaven and earth the Wisdom of God - Eph.3:9-10KJV.
Hi Brigitte
I wholeheartedly agree with you that Jesus as our Substitute 2nd Adam and Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world demonstrated the vast superiority of the power and scope of God's love in the course of such. This stands alongside what I am proposing - there is just a limit as to which dimensions I can unpack in a single comment - which I am all too aware is already of a length that taxes moderators time.
Something I would invite for consideration. God's ways are self-declared by God to be vastly higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). Is it possible that His form of justice is part of that - that it therefore operates on a completely different foundation to our human punishment-based conception of justice? And if so, could this very different basis and form of justice be so synonymous with compassion and love that there is absolutely no "tempering" needed because such 'justice' is of precisely the same "higher quality in 'spirit'" as the compassionate love you are referring to (in your comment further down)? I absolutely believe such is the case and that is what I am attempting to unpack and substantiate from scripture.
I appreciate the exchanges with you.
Thank you, Phil - I find it 'telling' that you use the term 'proposing' when sharing your findings, since I think your understanding goes much deeper than just being a recognition of the mind which you propose for others to consider. I am certain you agree that your 'knowing' is sourced from deep within your God-loving 'heart'.
Words are inadequate to describe the spiritual aspects of God's Gospel Truth - Love = Justice, Mercy, and Grace; it has to be experienced. True 'knowing' comes through the heart's experience to the mind; the reason why our Creator admonishes us to guard it through/by loving Him with all our heart, mind and soul, and our fellow man as we hope to be loved.
Yes, I also see that which we call 'Love' - the Trinity's achievement of perfect balance in the Creation - was chosen to be the overarching Law and Principle governing everything that is; and yes, heaven's justice is unquestionable higher than ours.
I understand 'justice tempered by Mercy and Grace', to have been done by the Trinity at the time when forming the foundation of the world; each one contributing its own to establish that which perfectly balances LIFE by creative justice = perfect Love - Gen.1:31.
The mind/heart of the Creator has provided for man the written Law - the 10 Commandments, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus, as well as everything expressed in spoken form by the prophets to be God's Will, because the heart of man was incapably to perceive it within itself; the heart becomes transformed first by faith in the Will of God and doing it.
His Law, which governs everything in existence, known or unbeknownst to the 'thing' that is, is the applied mechanism of the Trinity's decision for their perfectly balanced 'Law of Love' to be its deciding/judging power.
Not to become too theological, philosophical, or metaphysical - I not only think, but I believe wholeheartedly, that God's perfect Law of Love, the mystery of the combined work of the Trinity, is the Love our Savior Christ Jesus applies when judging everything that is.
Phil, certainly you realize that punishment is only for the obstinate violator of God's "holy, just and good" law, and that sinners are adequately warned of the consequences.
Years ago we backpacked up to half-dome in Yosemite national park to spend the night, and on the way, passed by Nevada falls. At the top of the falls there is a guard rail and signs posted that warn all to stay behind the railing and to stay out of the river just above the falls. Yet anyone who wishes can ignore those warning signs. The signs do not rob any of freedom, but violation will certain rob any of life, as it did that weekend. A family was day-hiking to the falls and their 15 year old son waded into the river above the falls, ignoring the warning signs, and was quickly swept to his death.
God so loves this fallen world, and wishes to save all, but He cannot force any to be saved, but out of love, warns of the peril of disobedience to His "perfect" Law.
Also, punishment is only granted to those who choose death. They are only being granted the free-will desire of their heart. God is grieved to destroy(not in anger) any Life He has formed, but gives all the freedom to choose Life or death.
Robert, it seems to me that your example of "punishment" actually illustrates what Phil is advocating - that what we see as "punishment" is actually a matter of natural consequences of behavior at odds with the law of love on which God designed the universe. 😊 The discussion is not about whether or not sin results in death, but whether or not this death is an arbitrary decree or the natural consequences of choosing sin/death.
I think we are all beginning to track closely together. The differences are in our modes of expression. 😊
Hi Robert
I actually agree 110% with your analogy - perhaps even more than you might. When someone is given an 'informed' choice between an option that is life-preserving and one that will inherently result in loss of life (as per your scenario), yes there is authentic freedom.
Were your scenario instead that those who disobey the signs will then be punished/destroyed/put to death by those who put the signs there, that would not be authentic freedom.
Thus I find that your scenario completely accords with the following:
This and other parallel translations can be viewed here. All translations convey this same point - and are consistent with, for limited example, Psalm 1:6; Jeremiah 2:13,17,19 and John 10:10 to illustrate that I am not proposing a single 'proof text'.
Phil and Inge,
My analogy demonstrates the result of foolish disregard for the physical laws that exist in our world, and the freedom all have been given to choose for themselves. However, what about the angry person who decides to shoot a group of innocent people, killing many of them during his rampage? Will that automatically result in HIS death? How?
What will take place is arrest(if not shot while resisting arrest), trial, and execution by approved means(noose, chair, gas, injection, firing squad...etc).
The Amorites did not self-destruct, so God sent His army to execute His "wrath" against the evil doers who refused(after all those generations since the days of Abraham, along with the news from Egypt) God's offer of forgiveness through their repentance. This is just one example of many(Flood, Sodom/Gomorrah, Nineveh, successive nations of Daniel 2&7, Ananias & Sapphira, Jerusalem, etc). Also, read Revelation 20 and see what will soon take place. Without this event, there will always be a chance for doubting won't there? The "approval", or acknowledgment of God's justice from the wicked themselves will remove all(if any) remaining doubts. The Bible tells us plainly what God will/must do with the violators of His "perfect" law/will, as the Sovereign of all that exists, and without His Divine and Just intervention, the universe will never be free of wickedness, unless free-will is replaced with something else. And it remains my belief that any who have trouble with the unequivocal revealing of Scripture have yet to properly understand it.
There is no evil in the Lord(Ex 34:6,7), and all will at last sing with conviction: "Just and True are Thy ways...".
Responding to Robert (Phil will likely speak for himself.)
There are a couple of things to keep in mind:
1. The first death is merely a sleep from which people awake to get the "wages" they have chosen in life.
So when God steps in directly to withdraw probational life/put them to sleep, He acts like a physician doing surgery to keep a disease from spreading. This applies to all the examples you mentioned. He is always actively involved in the affairs of humanity.
2. The real death is the second death. As I mentioned to Shirley, there is some question as to whether or not the "lake of fire" is literal fire as we know it because a) Revelation is largely symbolic and b)the beast and the false prophet as well as death are thrown into the lake of fire. Institutions and death itself are hardly flammable by current standards. But I'm happy to leave the details to God. By that time, all the universe will be happy with whatever means God uses to annihilate sin and sinners.
Hi Robert
Straight up, I have to say that you ask an absolutely fair and honest question: How does violation of moral law inherently result in the death of the violator? If what we observe on this planet is 'full reality', then what you propose would in fact be the case: ie, sin/lawlessness (anomia) doesn't appear to inherently destroy and therefore God needs to. However, I would propose that we don't yet see anomia's full 'reality' in operation but rather only a (temporary) restrained version of such. What do I mean by this - and of vital importance, is there robust biblical substantiation for such?
Returning to ground zero reference point for this planet, God forewarned Eve and Adam that if they exercised their absolute freedom to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge (first hand experience) of evil (maleficence/self-seeking), they would die at that point (Genesis 2:16,17 - Hebrew: beyowm). This would happen because by embracing evil (self-seeking) they would inherently place themselves out of harmony with what Ellen White aptly describes as the "the law of life for heaven and earth"(an illustration that moral and physical law is inherently synonymous). Eve and Adam unfortunately did 'violate' this law (Genesis 3:6) but they didn't completely physically die at that point. What happened? Was God being untruthful or did God do something to intervene?
We have explicit reference within scripture to God undertaking temporary restraint for salvific purposes (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8; Revelation 7:1). Had God not intervened, I believe humanity would have become extinct at that point and Genesis 3:15 could not have been put into action. But restraint-based intervention comes at a high price - evil can temporarily flourish (as per Genesis 6:5) and in doing so risk the whole reason for restraint being applied in the first place (to the delight of Satan no doubt - and an avenue that he exploits to the max). So, what does God do given the degree of restraint is unfortunately resulting in evil flourishing to the point that humanity is at risk of self-annihilation and consequently, the avenue for salvation is at risk of being cut off too?
God releases the degree of restraint He has been exercising and the inherent 'lawlessness' is unleashed to a further degree. Again, this releasing is releasing to sin's true default state as 'anomia' (1 John 3:4)* and its associated inherent self-destruction.
This is a really important point that we all too easily (though understandably) overlook. It is even a pivotal issue that is raised in Revelation 6:9,10 where there is question over the restraint God is exercising because it doesn't seem fair. And God's response to such is to state that further restraint must yet be undertaken until a certain point. I don't know if you've noticed this in your Revelation studies, but at this point in Revelation, there is actually concern expressed at God's apparent modus operandi. Thus, at this point 'just and true are your ways' (Revelation 15:4; 17 is not what is on the minds of those crying out. Such comes later only after all see - in hindsight and therefore full perspective/context that only fuller Revelation of 'evidence that speaks for itself' can facilitate - why the way of restraint was the only way even though it didn't appear like it at the time.
Prior to my eyes being opened to the above (I am not the only one so I claim no special 'privilege'), I used to read physical science accounts that were advanced as evidence that God was not involved after all. Now I realise that, rather than being evidence for God's non-existence or non-involvement, properly understood within the above context, their explanations are in perfect harmony with a God who is non-arbitrary and whose ways are also correspondingly non-arbitrary (referring to the absolute broadest possible conceptualisation of arbitrary/non-arbitrary).
There is much, much more on this topic with robust substantiation across scripture (especially if one remember's to take the presence of Hebraism (Section 4, point 16) that I have previously referred to into account). But this hopefully provides sufficient initial outline and substantiation to merit further consideration, investigation and discussion to what is a very valid and relevant question that you have raised...
_____________
* Keep in mind that order is only produced by the constant nature of natural/design law. Thus, anomia (Greek) precludes order and therefore produces unrestrained chaos. Order is necessary for true life - chaos precludes such. Consider if the constant of gravity were suddenly no longer in operation for example? What would happen right this instance if such an anomia were to occur?
In Genesis 6:5 we have a description of moral anomia. While the first sentence in 2 Peter 3:10 is obviously metaphorical, I actually believe the second sentence is a literal and reflective description of the point at which God releases total restraint to the physical anomia that was also unfortunately unleashed in Genesis 3:6 via nature being under the dominion of Adam. Prior to this point, however, there are many instances of release of restraint to varying degrees at various times across earth's history.
Phil, aren't you missing an important detail? Let's look at Eden and its forbidden Tree. The very fact that this tree existed without any restriction of access proves the existence of perfect freedom/liberty doesn't it? Adam and Eve were free to choose their future outcome, and were duly warned of the inevitable outcome of disobedience, but not as a threat. Freewill remained no matter how the outcome might be executed.
God will and must bring sin/sinners to an end, after allowing opportunity for all to know the Truth about righteousness and sin(Acts 17:26,27, Titus 2:11,12). God will also allow the lost to answer for their rebellion after revealing the Truth in every case, to which they will acknowledge His goodness, Truth, and Justice, which is followed by the final eradication of sin and all who refused to meet the conditions for Life. God will not destroy in anger as He brings to close the very lives of those He formed in His image and offered Jesus' blood as propitiation for them. Would an angry God make salvation possible?
God alone can create a life, and He alone can bring it to an end(Matt 10:28, Rev 20:9). The young man who died at Nevada Falls did not destroy his soul in that tragic accident, and the eternal future of his soul is in God's hands. "Sin" did not destroy him, swiftly running water and gravity did, or more specifically, the granite rocks below.
None of your proof texts negate Rev 20:9 do they? I believe Gal 6:8 applies itself in a different way that it seems you might be suggesting when compared to Romans 8.
What does the story of the 2nd harvest in Revelation 14 tell us on this matter? Where do the vials come from that are poured out upon the earth in Revelation 16? Are the wicked in Revelation 6:15-17 fearful of natural cause or something else? What do they wish to be hidden from? What do these prophetic depictions indicate regarding the final outcome of the wicked? I find all of your proof texts in harmony with these descriptions.
Thanks Robert
I acknowledge your response and your substantiation of such and have looked at it carefully. And I appreciate that our underpinning premises lead us to see/interpret the same texts differently. But we are each studying for ourselves (Acts 17:11) and are each sharing what we are presently persuaded about (Romans 14:5).
Where we differ in one major way is with respect to whether the means of getting to the final outcome reflects upon freedom or whether it is merely the final outcome that matters and means of getting there doesn't. In regard to your final question, I believe the wicked recoil from across-the-board release of restraint that manifests in unrestrained exposure to truth (as per 1 Corinthians 4:5) and also 'all hell breaking loose' so to speak in the elements.
So it doesn't seem like I am shutting you down, given this thread of comment is now very long, how about we pick this conversation up further as we continue along across time in the course of the lessons this quarter?
Phil, just a few thoughts in response to your next to last comment(10/6/21, 5:40PM) just above.
If God is holding back His creation from destroying itself, then He is doing nothing less than literally bringing down fire from heaven by allowing the "auto" destruction isn't He? If you were swimming in the ocean while holding your infant child who doesn't know how to swim, and you let them go to face the water and waves on their own, would you or the ocean be charged with drowning the child, especially if YOU created the ocean/waves?
Yes, God meets every occasion as required to fulfill His purpose, which may require afflicting a powerful nation with plagues, a flood to remove the wicked, or a fire to remove wicked cities that would overrun the earth if left alone. The 7 Trumpets of the Revelation are God working among the nations for the benefit of His purposes through His faithful people.
Regarding Rev 6:10,11, it is not the souls, who died in faith(under the altar) who cry out, it is the injustice against them which is being depicted symbolically as dead souls crying out. Same with Abel's blood "crying out"(see Eccl 9:5,10). Those souls thought so highly of God's "just and true ways" that they were willing to surrender life for them. They had no doubts concerning God's ways, which speak for themselves and are obvious to any who reflect honestly and seek the Lord with all their heart, not being blinded by willful wickedness.
For Inge(10/6, 9:34AM), Revelation 20 and the lake of fire is not the only instance in scripture of this. Many passages speak of the wicked being "burned" or "consumed" from fire, or being "reduced to ashes upon the earth", etc.
Is all of scripture to be taken as symbolic of something other than fire? As most know, many scoffed at the idea of the "elements" melting from fervent heat, until nuclear "fire" was discovered. Perhaps God will use something more powerful than this? Yet it will have the cleansing effect of fire. In Peter's passage on this, he speaks of the cleansing of the earth by water, which we believe was literal, so why not the fervent heat which will "melt" the very elements? Is there another element that will produce smoke and ashes that is not fire? In the end, God claims to bring this element(fire?) to end the rebellion against His government out of necessity, since the wicked will all be there and very alive. Something like fire from God will remove them according to Scripture, and as taught by Jesus(Matt 25:41, Mark 9:43-48).
Robert, you wrote,
That's not what I said, did I? I'm just saying that the fact that organizations and death itself is to be thrown into "the lake of fire" should suggest to us that perhaps we should not be too dogmatic as to just what this "lake of fire" means. Some "fire" mentioned in Scripture is clearly literal, but when surrounding language is highly symbolic, caution is advised.
Thank you Phil for your expansion of the lesson study and thought provoking discussion that gives me so much more understanding.
Thank you Jane (and others along the way) for taking the time to feedback that you are finding the contributions helpful. I praise God for such and give Him full credit for anything beneficial that results. It is important for me to know such feedback because when my contributions become unhelpful, then I will cease to make them because unhelpful is the last thing I would want to be.
So thank you and God bless you in your faith-walk.
Influencer - Leader - Image
Who am I following, who is influencing me?
When Moses their leader, the representative of the invisible God, seemed to have disappeared the Israelites turned to his brother. But Aaron was weak and gave the people what they wanted - the image of the Egyptian god Apis.
The LORD had to send Moses down with His Principles of Life and the truth of His Plan of Salvation - His substitutionary sacrifice.
I have discovered the same thing happening through the rest of their history, being led astray to worship other so-called 'gods'.
Jesus warned His disciples to watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing, the apostles also warned of those teaching "another gospel".
So what is the present truth we learn from this section of Deuteronomy?
There is coming a time when we will have to choose whether to believe the counterfeit or the genuine Truth about the character of the LORD.
As for me and my household we choose to believe that here we have, early in the Bible, a powerful expression of substitution, in which God Himself, in the person of Jesus, will bear in Himself the full brunt and penalty of our sin — God’s preordained way of salvation for humanity while remaining true to the principles of His government and law.
We understand the magnitude of Moses' influence when we realize how Jesus Himself learned the Truth through the books Moses wrote many centuries before. Though the inspiration came from God(2 Tim 3:16), we could say that Moses is the most widely read and influential writer of all time. (yes, that God became Jesus, but He had to learn as we must, and none of His former divinity was involved in His earthly life)
Moses was the product of his faithful mother who only had influence over him for 12 brief years, after that, the court of Pharaoh for 28 years, then sheep in the wilderness for 40 years. (It took a while to undo the wrong influences of those 28 years!)
Another powerful insight about Moses is found in Rev 15:3, and the passage from Exodus 32 helps to explain the importance of Moses' witness through faith. A sinner transformed by the grace of God has no limit to what they might accomplish by faith and obedience. While there can be no obedience without faith, there can be no faith without obedience. So what is obedience in this instance? Obedience is measured by the law/will of God, and is nothing less than being like God in character, purpose, and actions/words.
Anyone can lose their soul, but how many would surrender their soul out of love for others? I also believe Moses knew God and was actually saying “if I am mistaken about You, then I have been misled”. (God's decree which Moses was responding to was actually a test for Moses, who proved the accuser false.) Also, what else could he have said at such a time, given his compassion for those who were then being held under Satan's spell? What does a creature use to bargain with the Creator?
Put another way, greater love has no man, (and yes mother) then they lay down there life for a friend. John 15:13. I have often thought about that, and come to the conclusion that it is much easier with a close connection daily to Christ. Jude 20-24. Acts 24:15-16. I would say that the way to strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men, is to have a daily relationship with Christ. Peter expounds on this. 2 Peter 1:5-10. To keep up with my friends comment, we seem to go back and forth between old and new, Jeremiah had some words also that encourage us to stay with the Lord. Jeremiah 17:7-8.
To learn the actual meaning of this passage's wording of "forgive their sin" to be "to bear", is very helpful in understanding God's willingness in those times to practice forbearance regarding man's sins.
I think to request of God to 'bear our sin' was needful at that time, until Christ Jesus was given with to us with the ability to 'take away our sin' - 1John3:4-6KJV.
When learning from Scriptures, I want to know what motivates an action - i.e. Moses interceding on behalf of his people. I see him to be motivated by compassion for his people. Love, which is of higher quality in 'spirit' than mere justice, God honored the man Moses' desire to show compassion by being compassionate Himself.
Yes, allowing Grace and Mercy to temper Justice, God demonstrated His willingness already then to give mankind His Son to allow for the compassionate intercession and judgement of mankind - Heb.7:1-28NLT; Heb.7:1-28AB.
For God love the world so much That he gave his only son to die for our sin so that we can have everlasting life. we should have love because God is love.