Sunday: The Ram and the Goat
Read Daniel 8:1-27. What is this vision all about and how does it parallel what we have seen in Daniel chapters 2 and 7?
As in Daniel chapters 2 and 7, we are given here another vision of the rise and fall of world empires, though with a different kind of symbolism. This symbolism is directly related to God’s sanctuary.
Image © Review and Herald Publishing collection at GoodSalt.com
In this case, the symbols of a ram and a goat are used because of their connection with the Day of Atonement sanctuary ritual, a time of judgment for ancient Israel. Rams and goats were used as sacrificial offerings in the sanctuary service. But only on the Day of Atonement are the two mentioned together. Hence, these two animals are intentionally chosen here to evoke the Day of Atonement, which is a major focus of the vision.
As the vision unfolds, Daniel sees a ram pushing in three different directions: westward, northward, and southward (Dan. 8:4). This triple movement indicates the expansion of this power: “so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great” (Dan. 8:4, NKJV). As the angel explains, the ram with two horns represents the Medo-Persian Empire (Dan. 8:20), and the three directions most likely literally pointed to the three major conquests of this world power.
Next, a goat emerges with a big horn, which represents the Greek Empire under the command of Alexander the Great (Dan. 8:21). That the goat moves “without touching the ground” (Dan. 8:5, NKJV) signifies that it is moving quickly. This symbolism conveys the rapidity of Alexander’s conquest, which Daniel 7 presents as a winged leopard. But, as the prophecy indicates, when the goat “became strong, the large horn is broken” (Dan. 8:8, NKJV) and gives way to four horns, which extend to the four quadrants of the compass. This is fulfilled when Alexander dies in Babylon in June of 323 B.C., and his kingdom is divided among his four generals.
| Between Daniel 2:38 and Daniel 8:20-21, three of the four empires revealed in the visions have been named for us. How should this amazing fact help confirm the correctness of our interpretation of these prophecies? |
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I am going to jump forward a bit this morning to about Wednesday's topic. It is of course the main reason for studying this weeks lesson and my mind has been churning away overnight on a couple of ideas to consider. I present these ideas, not as a revision of doctrine but just as something to consider and perhaps to shift our perspective.
First of all, a bit of science. On 5 July 1687, Isaac Newton published his theory of gravity complete with formulas. The moment of his discovery has been somewhat dramatised by the picture of an apple falling on his head, but the reality is that Newton had thought about the issue of falling objects for some time and in typical mathematical fashion had applied reason to his observations and developed a theory of gravity. He reasoned that objects with mass attracted one another. It was found that not only did the theory apply to objects falling near the surface of the earth but to planets in motion around the sun.
Newton's theory stood until Einstein's general theory of relativity proposed that the real reason for gravity was that masses bend the space around them. Einstein's theory replaced Newton's theory because not only did it explain the phenomenon that Newton's theory explained, it also explained planetary precessional motion (take my word for that - I am not going to explain precessional motion here) and also predicted that light would bend as it passed massive objects. That prediction took a little while for technology to catch up but when it did it was found that light behaved in a gravity field in exactly the way Einstein predicted.
The point of this illustration is that neither Newton or Einstein invented gravity. It did not begin with their discovery but had been there since the creation of the universe.
Now for a little bit about God - time - existence and judgement.
Most of us have some sort of notion about God being eternal, while we mortals have a relatively short existence. Part of the problem is that we often think of eternal as meaning a very long time. Descriptors like, "before" and "after" are meaningless in eternity. A better understanding is the notion that God is outside of time. That is very hard for us to describe and even the Bible struggles to get that idea across (eg the great "I am" and "which was, and is, and is, to come".
Statements that claim that God existed "before us" don't really express the idea of eternal existence all that well. All our experience is time based, and we only have a very limited view of God outside of time. Most of our expressions of eternity fall short simply because we do not have the language to express it adequately. The point that I want to make is that God, and his precepts and judgment are not temporal but eternal - outside of time.
What has this got to do with 1844? Seventh-day Adventists make the claim that the "investigative judgement", our term, began in 1844 and has been going on ever since. This is position that we have arrived at from interpretation of scripture. We cannot physically open a window into heaven and observe this judgement, nor can we point to some phenomenon on earth as evidence of its process. It is a position of faith. But what if the real discovery was not the timing but the importance of the judgement. Eternal judgement is something outside of time about what is happening inside time. God by his very nature has always judged. God, through his son has always offered salvation by grace. And in 1844, Seventh-day Adventists linked the two together for a better understanding. Should our emphasis be on 1844 or the judgement?
Well, it is something to think about. Don't shoot me as a heretic just yet.
This writing is a paradigm shift in the way we think. In reading my mind wants to confine your writing to time and space. Thank you for sharing God.
Quite interesting to read that "God by his very nature has always judged."
Maurice, that begs a question-
Was there need of judgment before sin raised its ugly head in Heaven through the proud angel Lucifer?
and if so, then we cannot limit God's judging to wrongdoing only.
Is that what you mean by..."The point that I want to make is that God, and his precepts and judgment are not temporal but eternal - outside of time?"
"...then we cannot limit God's judging to wrongdoing only."
Yes judgment is not just about wrongdoing, and that is exactly what I meant.
I would propose that the very first recorded 'judgment' of God that we have in the Bible is Genesis 1:4: "God saw that the light was good". This 'judgment' was undertaken on most of the remaining days of creation and culminated in Genesis 1:31 when "God saw everything He had made and behold it was very good".
Was it good or very good because God judged it to be that way (ie His judgment made it good)? Or did God judge it to be good/very good because that is precisely what it already was?
There is a world of difference between these two alternatives.
Genesis 2:18 is another judgment by God: "it is not good for the man to be alone".
God is Love. Everything he has created is based on love. Everything in the earth and Universe has been created to give life and growth and health. Light, the atmosphere and water and earth were created to give life, growth and beauty and to serve plants, animals and humanity. Plants give life to animals and humans. Animals serve and give life and growth to humans through their death and sacrifice. And we humans? Do we serve others? Are we life givers through love and service? I believe in the realm of things eternal and universal that is what God is judging about His creation including us. Do we let the Holy Spirit transform us to be life givers, creators, servers, lovers of ALL his creation. Do we love and serve God's image by loving and serving each other. Christ needs to live in us so just like God said at the end of earth's creation: It is very good. Humanity as well as governments that through force, abuse, and oppression become death and destruction forces are the antithesis of who God's Holy Trinity is all about. Thus antiChrist.
Thanks for your input Laura.
I believe that what you have outlined is one of the most core aspects of reality.
Because of precisely what you have said, that is why I believe that God's judgment is essentially His revealing of what is for all to see - evidence that speaks for itself and therefore needs no interpretation or determination.
Hence the frequent reference to God's revealing in Dan 2:19; 22; 23; 28; 30; 45 so that we might "understand".
Maurice, I agree with your analysis. It is the position I arrived at years ago after reading Dr Johnson's In Absolute Confidence. What happened in 1844, as you so rightly state, is the linkage God's salvation activity and the second advent. Hence there is no fear in the hearts of those who have come to him in faith, believing that He saves to the uttermost...
I think our emphasis should be on both aspects.
God took special care to couch his message to us in symbols to pique our inquisitive interest, then gave us the calculation for the 'when'(Dan.8:14;9:24-27) and the process(the wilderness sanctuary) of the event.
I believe He wants us to take both seriously.
Dates of events help us to look back with assurance and forward with confidence.
As proclaimers of the message 'fear God and give glory to Him for the HOUR of His JUDGMENT is come" we must have a correct understanding of both as we carry out our commission to an increasingly skeptical world! One cannot be shared without the other.
The 'when' should fill us with a sense of urgency and the 'what' with absolute assurance and expectation that God will complete what He started on the planet and in our lives.
The Bible says "be ready always to give an answer for the hope that lies in us."
Now should we as Seventh-day Adventists be 'shoving our 'superior' understanding of 1844 down people's throat?' Absolutely not and I am aware that some do just that!
The Bible's precise reckoning simply opens the way for the student to pay attention to the event and process especially as it applies to us individually, and God's presence and interaction in this world.
It says to us all' 'God is still at work!
I hope I made some sense!
Maurice Ashton, it's intriguing to note your views. however, the Bible has its unique way of being understood; usually the Holy spirit plays a role. and God usually , just allow an amount of truth to be illuminated on His people (Church), such as needful or that particular Era, but usually very sufficient for their salvation.
Isn’t it amazing that He who exists outside of time steps into time weekly, just for 24 hours, as He comes to commune with His creatures every Sabbath!
Adam and Eve were judge inside of the garden or Eden, after the judgment there place outside the garden of Eden, hence the thought the decision there made in side Eden place them out side of the same Eden.
Maurice,
I totally understand where you're coming from and completely agree.
Our focus should be on the judgment itself and its impact on our lives, the lives of our loved ones, and those not yet reached. Instead of being an abstract part of history, the judgment is a dynamic, vital part of our daily lives.
To my thinking the book of Daniel asks the great question "Who has dominion over the whole world"
The 1st six chapters set the scene. Chap 7 gives a summary and from Chap 8 onwards we get the details.
In Chap 7 we see the first 3 kingdoms who have dominion, then the fourth terrible power who devours the whole world. Then there is a mysterious "pompous, persecuting power" who in various forms remains to the end when "the kingdom and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the Most High and his people, His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all dominions shall serve and obey Him" Dan 7:27
Daniel 7 introduces the question - why is 1) the court seated Rev 21:11 2) the 'books' opened Rev 21:12 3)judgment is made in favour and dominion is given to the Most High and His people.
Obviously there is a question about who actually has dominion over the whole world between the "Pompous, Persecuting, Power" and the Most High and His People.
Daniel 7 gives a brief idea of this power and the conflict -
A) He shall speak pompous words against the Most High
B) He shall persecute the saints of the Most High
C) He shall intend to change times and law Dan 2:21 in place of God
D) the saints will be given into his hands for 1260 years, however the conflict will continue until the Most High receives His kingdom that will not be destroyed but will last forever.
Daniel 8 gives us more details about how the Sanctuary and Ministry of the Most High is attacked by the "Pompous, Persecuting, Power"
The esoteric theory that God is outside of time makes no sense to me. I see time as our mnemonic device to establish the sequence of events.
There was no need for God to create time. Time has no extrinsic existence outside of events. The moment God either thought or acted, those actions were related to the sequence of events.
The notion that God is outside of time requires for God to fuse what he did yesterday with what he does today and what he will do tomorrow.
I believe that God could remember exactly what he did in the past and relate those events in a timely fashion.
"The notion that God is outside of time requires for God to fuse what he did yesterday with what he does today and what he will do tomorrow."
I would suggest that is the whole point of considering a "God outside of time." and makes sense of what we call prophecy.
I would add that the idea of "God outside of time" makes much more sense now that physicists have exposed us to the relativistic nature of time and space. Back in the 1960s I had an interesting discussion with my Adventist Physics lecturer on this very topic. He is still alive and I see him from time to time. We still reminisce about the, "Have you ever thought about ..." discussions we had. It was those "off the edge of the universe" discussions that have helped me keep my faith in a very secular world.
The theory that God is outside of time is based on the notion that time is a physical entity. If God created time, then it must follow that God did exist before he created time and that he must have been outside of time to be able to create it.
But, if we view time as simply a device we use to establish the sequence of events, then the theory collapses because the moment God engaged in two or more actions, the sequence of events was established even for God.
God could say: my x action preceded the y act. There was no need to create a mental construct labeled time, or sequence of events.
you have made me start thinking again..
We could have a long discussion about the issue of time (or perhaps more correctly intervals of time). However a couple of points. We cannot really say that God existed before time because that immediately places God in the time framework. Our notions of existence are tied up with time and space - the stuff we live in. We cannot escape it. Even using the words "God exists" is essentially a misuse of the word exist because of its association with time and space.
Because our language is limited we find it difficult to express the idea of a limitless God unconstrained by the time and space he created. I use the expression "God is!" to try and get away from the limitation but I admit that even that is a poor representation. We do need to remind ourselves that in spite of our difficulty in expressing the metaphysical God, the very real picture of God is that he is personal and interested in us. That is why the Biblical picture of God is so important.
Thank you all for the comments.I've learnt more.
God is truly outside of time. He also relates to us in time. Thus the activities happening at various times is of importance to Him and should be to us.
Judgement should be emphasized.
I find a lot of youths in my club just switch off interest as we begin to study these dates and they just ask 'So what is the significance of these?'
It is judgement.
May God continue to bless us with wisdom to understand His words.
The word 'judgment' is used a lot within these lessons. But what is meant by judgment is not unpacked - especially from a biblical perspective. I believe this is one area (among others) where we have superimposed our views upon scripture rather than letting scripture inform our views.
How does God judge? What kind of judgment process does God use? Isaiah 55:8,9 - speaking of how God deals with "wicked" and "unrighteous" people - tells us that God's ways are not our ways. And yet we typically assume/portray that God judges just like the judges of our legal systems.
Perhaps if we unpack what a biblical view of judgment is, it may have more practical relevance that young people can see?
Here is a start point for a biblical unpacking of how God judges: 1 Corinthians 4:5 which can then be compared with Daniel 2:22,28.
Phil, is judgement not just a revealing of facts? In the case of sinful humans, would it not be a revealing of who we have chosen to worship, or live our lives in harmony with? Have we chosen to live like Jesus, selfless and in obedience to Gods law, or have we chosen to live a life more in line with Satan, a selfish life which brings us into opposition with Jesus? I believe our choices will be clear to all, not just to God. These are just the thoughts rambling through my mind this morning. I don’t think judgement is something to fear if we have chosen to follow Jesus example.
Hi Karen.
In answer to your question, absolutely!
Interesting to consider that the Great Controversy is Satan attacking God's nature and character. And the bible points out that Satan is at his core a liar and deceiver. This is why the metaphor of darkness is applied to him and his kingdom. You can't see 'what's what' in darkness.
On the other hand John (John 1:4-9) and James (James 1:17) draw heavily upon the metaphor of light to represent Jesus and God. Light dispels darkness and reveals exactly what is going on - and why.
In giving further thought to your response, I again reflected upon that the book of the bible that goes into the most detail about 'judgment' is called "Revelation".
Also, the book of Daniel revolves around the theme of revealing by One who, contrary to the Chaldean attendants 'judgment' that the revealer of secret/hidden things does not dwell/tabernacle/sanctuary with mortal flesh, does in fact dwell/tabernacle/sanctuary with mortal flesh to reveal what will take place so that humans can understand what takes place and why.
And also interesting that the name Daniel means "God speaks". If we look at the first few verses of John 1, we see more precisely that God speaks via the Word who is the Light that reveals all things.
Another thing that is interesting to consider. Judgment is often portrayed as involving God destroying things. If God is metaphorically light and Satan and sin is metaphorically darkness, how does light destroy darkness? It does and without killing anything!
Keep your thoughts coming...
Why do people have a problem with the word judgment, I believe it means examine the facts, compare them to the requirement of the law, then apply the relevant consequence.
In many places in the Word we have the same principle as Rev 20:12,13 , all stand before God's throne, the books are opened and the people are judged according to their works, by the things written in the books.
In addition to that principle, God's grace is applied on occasion to blot out the negative records.
I speak with a lot of people about their Christian faith experience. It is not the word that is an issue for people - it is the concept that has been/is portrayed by the word.
Many people do not have a positive association with the concept of God's judgment. In essence, they have a fear-based uncertainty and apprehension about the idea of God's judgment: whether God will pronounce them guilty or not guilty and what their punishment will be.
This is why I propose that we unpack and explore/discuss the meanings behind the words we use when these words refer to key concepts/experiences of Christian life and living...