Sunday: The Deeds of the Law
Read Romans 3:19-20. What is Paul saying here about the law, about what it does, and about what it does not or cannot do? Why is this point so important for all Christians to understand?
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Paul is using the term law in its broad sense as the Jew in his day understood it. By the term Torah (the Hebrew word for “law”), a Jew even today thinks particularly of God’s instruction in the first five books of Moses but also more generally in the entire Old Testament. The moral law-plus the amplification of this in the statutes and judgments, as well as the ceremonial precepts-was a part of this instruction. Because of this we may think of the law here as the system of Judaism.
To be under the law means to be under its jurisdiction. The law, however, reveals a person’s shortcomings and guilt before God. The law cannot remove that guilt; what it can do is lead the sinner to seek a remedy for it.
As we apply the book of Romans in our day, when Jewish law is no longer a factor, we think of law particularly in terms of the moral law. This law can’t save us any more than the system of Judaism could save the Jews. To save a sinner is not the moral law’s function. Its function is to reveal God’s character and to show people wherein they fall short of reflecting that character.
Whichever law it is-moral, ceremonial, civil, or all combined-the keeping of any or all in and of itself will not make a person just in God’s sight. In fact, the law never was intended to do that. On the contrary, the law was to point out our shortcomings and lead us to Christ.
The law can no more save us than the symptoms of a disease can cure the disease. The symptoms don’t cure; they point out the need for the cure. That’s how the law functions.
| How successful have your efforts in law-keeping been? What should that answer tell you about the futility of trying to be saved by keeping the law? |
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Came to my thought, is Ten Commandment and what we are carrying for life.
Actually symptoms in a disease process are caused by the processes of the body to rid itself of disease. Through the symptoms we might be able to identify the disease process, but the symptoms are actually the function of the body to resolve the disease.
I like the old example of the mirror showing us the dirt on our face, but it will not get rid of the dirt the same as the law cannot cleanse us from sin. It only shows us we have sinned.
It also shows us what we will be like when we are rid of sin.
Amen, we so often forget to use the mirror, which reminds us we need to go to Christ for cleansing. The Holy Spirit informs us we have dirt on our face. Lets listen to that still small voice.
only Jesus can save us and not the Law This is what Romans 3: 19 -20 points out
There are some interesting points the author makes:
He says: "The law, however, reveals a person’s shortcomings and guilt before God. The law cannot remove that guilt; what it can do is lead the sinner to seek a remedy for it."
If the law's function is to lead the sinner to seek a remedy, doesn't Christ provide that remedy? Isn't Christ the remedy? Having accepted Christ as our Lord and savior, aren't we now IN CHRIST? There is therefore no condemnation to those of us who are NOW IN CHRIST Jesus, and who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Such that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made me FREE from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1,2. If we are IN CHRIST, we are new creatures, old things have passed away, new things have come - 2 Cor 5:17.
If the law has done its job in leading me to the remedy - Jesus, it has completed its job, and I am now under the control of the Holy Spirit, not the law.
He says: "Whichever law it is-moral, ceremonial, civil, or all combined-the keeping of any or all in and of itself will not make a person just in God’s sight. In fact, the law never was intended to do that. On the contrary, the law was to point out our shortcomings and lead us to Christ."
If the law will not make me just in God's sight, then the keeping of it will not make me just in God's sight. The function of the law has therefore expired after it has brought me to the remedy - Jesus.
He says: "The law can no more save us than the symptoms of a disease can cure the disease. The symptoms don’t cure; they point out the need for the cure. That’s how the law functions."
If the law is powerless to save me, like the symptoms of a disease cannot cure me, then the keeping of it has no redeeming value in keeping me from sinning. I already know what sin is, why not hang on to the One who can keep me from sinning? Jude 24.
this is a powerful statement my friend.....Sometime the REAL TRUTH hurts....
What Robert has so wounderfully explained is exactly what Paul ment to convey, we are no longer under the law when we turn to Christ, confess our sins, and repent. Some have a problem with repenting, they think they must do it of theirselves. I am reminded of a passage in Steps to Christ. "He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy." SC 59.4. What does make us holy mean?Repentence. Is Christ forcing us to be holy? No, we turn to Christ allowing Him to make us holy. Thus repentence takes place. Repentence is us surrendering to the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Fred,
The law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, but we don't throw in the trash once you come to Jesus because we still need some guidelines so we can become like Christ, and when we fall back into sin after coming to Christ the law must be there to direct us back to the cross.....along with the Holy Spirit.
It is true that the law is there to reveal our weaknesses or sin. Unfortunately the challenge is to deal with the sin. At times to get rid off the sin it is a battle and only through the grace of God. Sometimes it takes long to get rid of the sin
We sometimes forgot that Jesus who is our Savior told the Rich Young Ruler, I you want to be saved-have eternal life, he must keep Jesus' commandments, the law! Jesus said if you love me, keep His commandments.
We often times philosophized certain aspects of the Bible - God's words, and forget some important parts. In summary, when you have Jesus, you are a law abiding citizen.
Carlton
This is not philosophizing. This is reading the entire context of the passage of scripture, and not selecting just a favorite fragment.
You said that we sometimes forgot that Jesus who is our Savior told the Rich Young Ruler, if you want to be saved-have eternal life, he must keep Jesus' commandments, the law!
Before Jesus said that in Matt 19:16-22, He said - "why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." You can infer from that statement that Jesus is saying (1) He is not good, and (2) He is not God. But we do not have to philosophize to know that is not what He meant. He was just testing the Ruler.
Similarly, when He told him to keep the commandments, He again was testing him. Because when the Ruler stated that he was already keeping the commandments, Jesus told him to perform the true act of love, of giving to the poor. All of his commandment-keeping meant nothing. He walked away sorrowful.
Reading the entire context gives us a more complete view of the story - including "some important parts."
Fred my understanding is that Jesus was testing the ruler's conviction that He was God since he realized Jesus was good. In other words, "You call me good. are saying your realize I am God?"
William
Thanks for clarifying.
I guess by the same token, Jesus was testing the ruler's conviction and teaching him at the same time, that eternal life (and justification) is not based on the works of the law.
I believe Jesus expects us to keep the commandments if we love Him, but that does not justify us. The ruler needed to realize He needed Jesus' help to keep the commandments, which is why Jesus said "Follow me." The ruler did not want to follow Jesus, therefore he could not keep the commandments without Jesus' help.
I know Jesus would not test anyone with falsehood. What he said was truth. It is truth that if you want to inherit Ethernal life, you must keep the commandments as Jesus indicated.
However, the law is important to show us the character of God. It shows us whether what we are doing is right or wrong. Without the law, we can not know what is right and wrong neither know what sin is. We would not know the need for the remedy or cure without seeing the symptoms and the doctor wont know the specific medication.
Freddy
Rom 2:14, 15 talks about the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.
Rom 1:18-21 tells us even more, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
God speaks to our hearts, even the hearts of non-Christians, without the tool of the written Ten Commandments.
Fred,
Are you saying that keeping the law is of no value for the christian? Or am I just understanding you incorrectly?
Benjamin
First, if by law we mean the Ten Commandments, then I would say that the Ten Commandments is not a complete list of behaviors that are in violation of God’s principles. Look at Prov 6:16-19; 1 Tim 1:9,10; 1 Cor 6:9,10 as a start.
So if we focus just on the Ten Commandments, we could miss several things.
The Gentiles were coming to Christ without the passageway of the law. That was the big bone of contention against Paul’s teachings. See Acts 15, Gal 2.
The purpose of the law is clearly outlined in Gal 3 and Gal 4 (entire chapters), and numerous other scriptural references I have given in my posts.
The goal of the Christian experience is Christ-centered, Spirit-filled living. The bible is clear, that is not achieved by law-keeping.
The Christian is certainly free to keep the law, but if the law cannot keep you from sinning; if it cannot save you; if it cannot justify you; if it cannot sanctify you – while there are means given in Scripture to achieve all of those, wouldn’t you want to choose the method the Bible has laid out?
Fred,
To respond to your first statement, if you read those verses you gave to me, you would see that all of those are in violation of His Commandments. We wouldn't miss anything walking according to
His Spirit, because we can't break the letter of the law if we follow after the Spirit of the law. For example, if you are not thinking of another woman with lust, you cannot possibly commit adultery, but 'don't think of another woman with lust' isn't a Commandment.
Law keeping does not justify us! But law keeping shows that we are justified, because it's Christ through us who keeps the law. Christ said He has kept His Father's Commandments John 15:10. He will do the same thing in us.
It is so clear that if we love Him we will keep His Commandments. To try to strategically displace God's Law as if there is no place for it is to deny the character of God, because that is what His law is. Psalms 119 (longest chapter in the Bible) almost every single verse is about keeping His law, statutes, precepts, not so that we can be saved, but because we ARE saved!
We can do ALL things (even keep His law) through CHRIST that strengthens us!
You are a bit confusing here Mr. Roberts. In a earlier post you said "...the law's function is to lead the sinner to seek a remedy," and is no longer of value to us once you have found God, yet here you are saying the law is a wonderful thing because it is God speaking to the hearts of those that have never heard of Jesus, and excuses them.
I also like the "Mirror," analogy of "The Law." The mirror shows me where I need to clean or comb my hair etc. BUT it can never do those things for me at all, I have to go get the comb "God's Promises in Jesus His Son," and the water and soap and Towel, "God's Holy Spirit, Prayer, and His Word."
Our quarterly asked the question how successful have your effort in law-keeping been? I guess everyone would all say constantly failure . Therefore we can say thanks to the grace of God that our justification is by faith without the law. We can also borrow the words of Paul in Romans 7 :15-25 where he talks about doing good but do that which he should not . Paul concluded that I thank God through Christ our Lord . So then I of myself with the mind , indeed , serve the law of God ...Yes Christ is the way and the only way .Not by law , or by works all leads to failure without Christ.
Failure in law keeping only comes when we walk without the motivation of the Holy Spirit.
I would propose that while the various dimensions of 'law' mentioned in Sunday's lesson are correct, they are not sufficient or big enough of to inform an accurate understanding of law (an accurate understanding which Romans 7 indicates that Paul had). The reality of law is much bigger. Infact, a law (as opposed to a rule) in essence is a description of an aspect of reality and is stated in terms of a constant principle. For example, when you add 2 and 2, every time you get 4! 2 plus 2 doesn't equal 4 because someone made it law - the mathematical law describes the reality that is already there.
So lets think of the laws of health as another example of reality principles that exist. If I am able to live in 100% harmony with the laws of health, what will happen? I will actually be healthy - disease free so to speak. Health laws do more than point me to the need for a cure - they also reveal what the cure is. So, while health laws help me recognise symptoms, they also show me how I need to live in order to return to health because these health laws describe the reality principles that promote and sustain health.
I would propose that God's laws share the same nature as mathematical laws, health laws and so on - at their biggest conceptualisation, they actually are the reality principles that underpin "abundant" living.
However, if I mistakenly think of God's laws in the way I think of man-made rules, then I mistakenly get a whole other picture ...
When you read some comments here, you may think some people are already perfect, never to sin again! As far as the bible is concerned, the Law of God remains there ,is and will never be expired!Reason? we keep on sinning! As long as this is the case, the perpetuity of the law can not be questioned. My opinion is that there is only one condition to run away from the Law: come to christ and remain in him permanently without going back to sin. Has anybody done that?, Well, For me, i keep on falling back and my life is a vicious cycle of sin-judgment-found guilty-condemnation-look unto Christ-set free- sin again- cycle starts again! I am not proud of this dilemma!It is not my desire to remain in this cycle for life, but i am powerless, i desire to exit the cycle for good but my flesh keeps on failing me! Is anybody like me????, if the answer is yes, no matter the how much we play around with biblical terms, the reality is that the law still has a role to play in us, it will keep on convicting us and sending us on our knees to plead our case through Jesus Christ. Let us not play rhetoric here! If we use the mirror analogy here, we will always come back to the mirror after getting dirty. Even if we choose to refer to the law as a sign post, the sign post remains static but you keep on coming back to consult it every time you have lost your way.
very true, mirror ,sign post.whenever we think and feel ,we consult them as directors.
When you go back to the Law, Pascal, what would it say to you? Would it say “This time I will not condemn you or confirm the curse of your sin”? If it could it might well say “how did you get back here, you are supposed to be dead to me. Did Christ send you back? What happened to the Spirit?”
Scripture says "thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against you"......isn't the law part of God's word the the Holy Spirit would remind us of to help keep us from sinning?
Pascal
Why run back to the static sign post? Why not run straight to Jesus? You already know what is sin and that you sinned. The law is not going to heal you. The law is not going to save you. The law is not going to keep you from sinning again.
Why do we have this fear and hesitation of coming directly to the throne of grace - to Jesus Himself, to the leading of the Holy Spirit?
If we keep looking at the law, we will break the law. If we keep looking at Jesus, we will become more like Him and our sins will diminish. By beholding we are changed. Look unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith! The law is not of faith!
I do not throw out the law, I put it in its rightful place - as the tool that showed me what sin is and was a tutor pointing me to Christ. I can now come boldly, directly to Him.
I see various trends within our SDA faith, moving us slowly to believing like the Sunday worshipping Christians of the Beast.
The effort to sway us. It is in our quarterly, in our actions, and slowly getting into our frontal lobes - our beliefs.
I still believe that true children of God are always law abiding and seek after righteousness in all aspects of our lives. The Bible says "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" Isa 8:20. This light is Jesus.
Fred Roberts mistakenly said that the law has expired when he accepted Jesus, but Jesus said until Heaven and Earth disappear, the law will not expire or disappear.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Carlton
Thanks for the opportunity to correct what you related.
If you are going to quote me or anyone else, or the bible, please make it a complete quotation to be a fair and accurate witness of what is the truth on a particular matter.
I said "The function of the law" has therefore expired after it has brought me to the remedy - Jesus.
That is very different from saying the law has expired.
Gal 3:19 - the purpose of the law? It was added, UNTIL...
Gal 3:24 - the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we should receive justification. Therefore obviously, the law did not give justification.
Therefore after we have been brought to Christ the law has done its job perfectly. What keeps us holy thereafter? Not the law, because it had no role in making us holy. It has no role in keeping us from sinning.
It is Jesus who keeps us. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that speaks to us and convicts us, etc.
@Carlton Foster- Colossians 2:13-14 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.
Saved by grace through faith
As a person who is drawn to the SDA faith and find it intriguing for a sinner non-Christian as myself looking to make a next step, I don't think from my understanding that it is of God and love to name call a Christian Jesus believer of the bible worshiping on Sunday to be following the beast, while praising the same God and Jesus..gives me cause to pause...
Benjamin,you are right, some terms sound offensive to somebody who is not familiar with them. However,you should not be turned away from the faith you are attracted to. Obviously you heard something that attracted you to the church and a mere offkey comment should not deter you. I propose the best way to handle this is to talk to that person who made the comment and ask him what he meant by it. Perhaps you may concur with him later after getting the full extent and deeper meaning of what he said.
Thanks Pascal, I see that your intentions are good. I'm just on the fence because I hear that God is Love, Christ saves, and everyone that believes are God's children from a lot of Sunday church folk. I know people of all kind of walks of life, and certainly don't have the best of track records..trying to make a change for the better..I look for threads like this one to seek something..but I'm not fond of hostility and name calling whether you agree with someone or not..I've ran across a lot of good SDA folk, that I like a lot, healthy people..and some that seem to not have their heart in the right place with humanity and mankind..idk, I'll stop rambling now 🙂
In the majority of posts responding to my comments, there seems to be a common thread – to defend the law. I know the arguments. I have been an Adventist all my life. In my early years, I have interacted with and worked with Jehovah’s Witnesses, seeking to show them what the bible says about their doctrines. They danced around the scriptures, always defending their beliefs and circling back to positions that go against Scripture. I was always amazed that you can show them the Word – even in their New World translation, and they find ways to twist the scriptures to fit their cherished theology. I see the same approaches in some of the posts here. In the face of biblical evidence, there is a circling back to our beliefs which, to us have stood the test of over 170 years.
If you read my posts on this subject this week and in similar topics over the past weeks, I hope you will see a consistency. My goal is to write in accordance with what is revealed in Scripture and by the Holy Spirit. You will not see in my writings where I am advocating a removal of law, such that we live a law-less lifestyle. You will not see where I am advocating for an abrogation of the Sabbath. Someone even suggested what I wrote sounds like the Sunday churches.
The repeating thread I have been reading from others is an advocacy for obedience to the law – the Ten Commandments, as a guide for our daily living.
Hopefully, if you have read what I have written, I have consistently advocated for a life that is based on being guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
So there you have it. Two positions – guided by obedience to law versus guided by the Holy Spirit.
Some may say they are the same thing. I submit to you that they are not. Paul’s position was the latter. His position was that the law was holy, just, and good, and for a specific purpose, but now we have a greater experience available to us – God in us through the person of the Holy Spirit. This ever-present in-dwelling is absolutely greater than an external document on stone. The very present Holy Spirit gives us relevant guidance on a day-by-day, moment-by-moment basis.
I have a GPS device that I used to use to give me direction while driving. It was great, and gave good directions based on the last update from the manufacturer. I no longer use that device. Now I use my smart phone which gives me instant information about my route. It is so great, that it tells me to watch out! - there is a vehicle parked about half a mile ahead. It re-routes me if it “sees” as accident or heavy traffic ahead. My old GPS could not do that. An imperfect example, but the GPS from my smart phone is like the Holy Spirit – giving me instant up to date information and guidance, as opposed to the GPS built into the old device.
My point, and appeal in several posts, is why would we choose a static communicative device when we can have instant accurate guidance?
Some may say that the Law is still relevant. Yes it is, but some aspects are interpreted somewhat differently. The Law – Ten Commandments and the continuing instructions from God in Exodus through Deuteronomy are approached differently today from when they we spoken directly from the mouth of God. Won’t you want to know what God has to say to us today, in our culture, and in our stage of growth?
Why would we push aside the opportunity to have a close never-ending encounter with the fullness of God dwelling within us? He will give us relevant guidance for the moment.
Sometimes I think we have idolized the Law and made it greater than God Himself. Everything always has to circle back to the Ten Commandments. Are we afraid that the Holy Spirit does not know what He is doing? Or is it the comfort we may have in figuring it all out on our own without the intervention of the Holy Spirit?
Do we even truly know the Holy Spirit?
There is much more I can say, but I will wait to respond.
Mr. Roberts,
I agree the Ten Commandments are signposts that direct us to God; however the Holy Spirit is not lawless, and would not lead us down a road that had no signposts that would help us. Sometimes as Christians we turn away from the Holy Spirit and need signposts to warn us we are about to fall into a ditch.
Sometimes when we have lost our way it's necessary to return to that 'static signpost' and start our journey over anew. However if we have been taught that the law of God (warning signs) is dead, against us, not needed, evil, and is the rejection of the Holy Spirit we may never find our way back to that starting point so we can start over.
One thing I think you are leaving out is that if the Holy Spirit is in you it will not enter in or share in a sin with you once you have made up your mind to sin. The Holy Spirit will leave you if you willfully sin. The Holy Spirit does not zip its mouth shut and sit in the corner while you willfully sin. If it operated that way it would in fact be sharing in your sin by being complacent.
You seem to be teaching OSAS, that once you come to Jesus you receive the Holy Spirit and will have the Holy Spirit with you not matter what you do but I can't accept that knowing what Jesus said in the parable of the prodigal son. The father did not go with the prodigal son when he left to spend his money on booze and whores and share in those practices. In fact when the son came back the father said this is my son that was dead (while away from me sinning) and is now alive (because he decided to come back and start over).
Fantastic response, once again, let none behave as if we are already translated. The law will only finish its duties in me when i stop breaking it. Period! As long as sin is the transgression of the law, and since there will be no time before the return of the Messiah when everyone will stop sinning, Jesus said in Mathews 5: 17 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter nor the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law, until everything is accomplished" I wonder if this verse makes sense to some people, who, while still with me in the earth sinning, claim to have left the law behind!By the way, the author of the quarterly makes a point that being under the law means being under its jurisdiction. We are no longer under its jurisdiction because Christ kept it perfectly and fulfilled its requirements and died because we sinned thereby averting our own death and condemnation, so that whoever believes and has faith in him does not die due to law breaking; hence the law has no more jurisdiction on us....
I think we will be like Christ in relation to the law when we are justified. Don't you?
each huaman being is under the Law, no matter if such peoplo is a biliever, a atheist, a secular person or a satanist, all of us is under the Law. However, if i keep the Law, it is a sign i am justified by faith in Jesus, this way i am under the protection of the Law, on another hand desobeying the LAW I gonna suffer the outcome, i am under the curse of the Law. Obeying the Law or not, no one have the right of point the finger to the fail of ohter.
Each human being is condemned by the law, but the good news is each human is under grace because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of every person. If we love ourselves and others like Jesus loves us we be rewarded with being able to spend eternity with him after he returns.
I concur with the comments made by William, Freddy, Phil, Pascal and others. I also like the analogy of a mirror wrt the law. In addition I would say that God's law is there to help point us to righteous living. God's law is righteous because He is righteous. God desires that we be righteous too. BUT we can’t become righteous by just keeping the law. We must have faith and believe in Christ, who will in turn imput His righteousness through “our mortal flesh” (2 Corinthians 4:10-11). Since the law is righteous,Christ is that righteousness. And if we abide in Christ the life of righteousness will be manifested in us as we obey all of God’s commandments. Thus we will be called… “sons (and daughters) of God”(1 John 3:1-2). We will never reach the stage when the Law of God becomes obsolete or unnecessary in our lives.
Here are some corrections:
1. "Therefore after we have been brought to Christ the law has done its job perfectly." CORRECTION: The law does not bring us to Christ, it is the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ.
2. "What keeps us holy thereafter? Not the law, because it had no role in making us holy." CORRECTION: The law does not make a person holy, it is the Holy Spirit that set us apart, and continue a good work within us.
3. "Why do we have this fear and hesitation of coming directly to the throne of grace - to Jesus Himself, to the leading of the Holy Spirit?" CORRCTION: There is no hesitation. When we sin, we repent and we go to Jesus for forgiveness, not the law!
4. "If we keep looking at the law, we will break the law." CORRECTION: Children of God who look at the Holy laws will not break the laws, and sinners don't even look, they just break it as if it was not there.
5. Colossians 2:13–14 is only explaining that before the Cross, we were destine for death because of Adam, but Jesus nailed the death sentence on the Cross and gave us eternal life. "There was no other name by which we could be saved. It was only by Jesus." The death sentence was nailed to the cross, not the law.
6. "Why would we push aside the opportunity to have a close never-ending encounter with the fullness of God dwelling within us?" CORRECTION: The law and Jesus are one. They are not separated. The law existed in Heaven - which Satan violated and was kicked out because of it. God established the law, and Satan advocate the breaking of it.
7. "we can’t become righteous by just keeping the law. We must have faith and believe in Christ." Correct! No one is implying that by being law abiding, one will be righteous!
So then, what is the purpose of the law? It identifies the standard for being Godly. It is like a measuring stick (looking glass, or whatever). Without a benchmark - the law, you would not know which side you are on: God or Satan. If you are under the law, you are on Satan side. If you are above the law, you are on God side. Remove the law and you will wonder like a drunk driver, not knowing when you have crossed the line. Keep your eyes on Jesus, and you will stay above the law.
Brother Foster thank you so much for this comment. Well explained. People should stop politicizing Paul's writtings to imply what he did not mean. This propaganda to slaughter the law of God and render it invalid as if people have already stopped sinning should not be taken as truth. Our doctrine as Seventh Day Adventists agrees that we live a life of obedience through the empowerment of our saviour. The idea that he who becomes a christian is no longer supposed to keep the law is strongly Pentecostal and i think some people must come out in the open and state which church they correctly belong to so that we can take them for their true identity. There is no reason for disguise here. And this is why Peter warned every on concerning how we should interpret the Apostle Paul' s teachings Read 2 Peter 2:15-16. let us be careful
Carlton
In some respects you and I are saying the same thing, probably with different supporting thoughts in our heads. I am exhausted with going over the same thing, but thought that an acknowledging response was necessary.
Here are some corrections:
1. "Therefore after we have been brought to Christ the law has done its job perfectly." CORRECTION: The law does not bring us to Christ, it is the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ.
Yes, the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ. I am using the phraseology exactly as Gal 3:24 uses it when it was that “the law was out tutor to bring us to Christ.” I understand that different bible version say slightly different things, but I was just using the exact words from one version. So your problem is not with me, but with the version of scripture.
2. "What keeps us holy thereafter? Not the law, because it had no role in making us holy." CORRECTION: The law does not make a person holy, it is the Holy Spirit that set us apart, and continue a good work within us.
We are saying the same thing, if you read the entire context.
3. "Why do we have this fear and hesitation of coming directly to the throne of grace - to Jesus Himself, to the leading of the Holy Spirit?" CORRCTION: There is no hesitation. When we sin, we repent and we go to Jesus for forgiveness, not the law!
Yes, there is hesitation for some. What may be natural for you may not be natural for some others. You should not make yourself the standard.
4. "If we keep looking at the law, we will break the law." CORRECTION: Children of God who look at the Holy laws will not break the laws, and sinners don't even look, they just break it as if it was not there.
You are picking at straws. I have explained several times about focusing on law as opposed to focusing on Jesus. So you are missing the deeper point.
5. Colossians 2:13–14 is only explaining that before the Cross, we were destine for death because of Adam, but Jesus nailed the death sentence on the Cross and gave us eternal life. "There was no other name by which we could be saved. It was only by Jesus." The death sentence was nailed to the cross, not the law.
I did not raise this point so no need for me to comment.
6. "Why would we push aside the opportunity to have a close never-ending encounter with the fullness of God dwelling within us?" CORRECTION: The law and Jesus are one. They are not separated. The law existed in Heaven - which Satan violated and was kicked out because of it. God established the law, and Satan advocate the breaking of it.
The law and Jesus are not one. The Ten Commandments is a sub-set of God’s over arching standard of righteousness. The law would not be like a tutor to “bring us to Christ” according to the translation, if the law and Jesus were one. No extensive response necessary here.
7. "we can’t become righteous by just keeping the law. We must have faith and believe in Christ." Correct! No one is implying that by being law abiding, one will be righteous! So then, what is the purpose of the law? It identifies the standard for being Godly. It is like a measuring stick (looking glass, or whatever). Without a benchmark - the law, you would not know which side you are on: God or Satan. If you are under the law, you are on Satan side. If you are above the law, you are on God side. Remove the law and you will wonder like a drunk driver, not knowing when you have crossed the line. Keep your eyes on Jesus, and you will stay above the law.
Of course I disagree, but I have retired my case and have no additional thoughts to share. I do not have to win an argument. It is God’s truth and He will defend it.
First of all, the word law is used in two complete different ways. Paul used law with an article and without an article. Of course this makes a difference. Paul isn't talking about the old testament as a revelation from God. In reality in verse 19 the article is used to discuss those who are under the law (i.e. the Jews) whereas in verse 20 is without the article. He is talking about law as a principle of salvation.
Spot on Stephen! It's fantastic how you (praise God) are able to reveal how the original Greek actually reveals truth that is in harmony with reality.
Some feel it is their job to bring people to the law so they become law keepers. Others work to bring people to the sabbath so they become sabbath keepers. Still others work towards getting people to attend church so they can be church goers. That doesn't leave many to bring people to Jesus.
Clyde, your concern that the focus needs to be on bringing people to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is valid and worth hilighing.
And because of this, the point that Stephen Warren makes (above) is of vital importance. Specifically, when one understands Law (as opposed to the law) - that it comprises the reality principles that make Life (abundant, eternal life) possible and therefore that it is the reality that God inhabits, creates within and saves within, then it can be seen that bringing a person to a TRUE understanding of Law (again as opposed to the Law) is at the same time bringing someone to Jesus - and vise versa.
Jesus said that if He was lifted up He would draw people to Himself - that is, when we can see the truth of who God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is and the actual reality that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit lives within and works within (including the actual reality about how he saves/heals/restores us back into harmony with abundant eternal life actually functions/works as we live in a dependent connection upon Him), we are naturally drawn to Him (unless we have hardened our hearts to the point that we are no longer interested).
Stephen Warren's explanation above demonstrates that the bible authors understood the reality of Law and the Law of reality. They understood it in a way that magnified God and all his actions. Unfortunately, a misunderstanding of Law as simply laws/rules to be kept has crept in to Christianity resulting in doctrines that are inconsistent and/or don't make sense.
The law is a sign by the wood stove that says HOT - do not touch. I burned my fingers pretty often until the Holy Spirit taught me to how to read. Now even though I know how to read it's nice to have the sign there to remind me the wood stove is still hot.
Hi again Clyde. Thanks again for your input.
Is the law merely the sign that says Hot - do not touch? Or, is the Law (at its fullest expression) the actual second principle of thermodynamics at work - that if I touch a hot stove the heat from the stove will transfer to my hand and result in a burn?
Introducing people to God's law is not wrong, but not introducing them to the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives is criminal in my opinion. The law without the Spirit of the law is like a mirage on the desert to a thirsty person.
Spot on. Actually only the Holy Spirit can enable us to keep God's law, an attempt to do so without him is an exercise in futility.