Thursday: The First Gospel Promise
Read Genesis 3:15, Genesis 3:21. What hope can be found in these passages for all humanity?
Image © Steve Creitz at Goodsalt.com
Genesis chapter 3 describes the dreadful tragedy that took over the world after the Fall. Everything changed, and Adam and Eve could see the contrast between what the world used to be and what it had become.
But in the midst of their frustration and despair, God gave them assurance for the present and a hope for the future. First, He cursed the serpent with a word of Messianic hope. He declared, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel” (Genesis 3:15, NKJV).
The word “enmity” (Heb. ’eybah) implies not only a long-lasting cosmic controversy between good and evil, but also a personal repulsion to sin, which has been implanted by God’s grace in the human mind. By nature, we are completely fallen (Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5) and “slaves of sin” (Romans 6:20, NKJV). However, the grace that Christ implants in every human life creates in us enmity against Satan. And it is this “enmity,” a divine gift from Eden, that allows us to accept His saving grace. Without this converting grace and renewing power, humanity would continue to be the captive of Satan, a servant ever ready to do his bidding.
The Lord next used an animal sacrifice to illustrate this Messianic promise (see Genesis 3:21). “When Adam, according to God’s special directions, made an offering for sin, it was to him a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which God alone could give, and make an offering for sin. It was the first time he had witnessed death. As he looked upon the bleeding victim, writhing in the agonies of death, he was to look forward by faith to the Son of God, whom the victim prefigured, who was to die man’s sacrifice.” — Ellen G. White, The Story of Redemption, p. 50.
Read 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Hebrews 9:28. What do these texts teach about what was first revealed in Eden?
Knowing that they would eventually die (Genesis 3:19, Genesis 3:22-24), Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden. But they did not leave naked or with their own fig-leaf coverings (Genesis 3:7). God Himself “made tunics of skin” for them, and He even clothed them (Genesis 3:21, NKJV), a symbol of His covering righteousness (see Zechariah 3:1-5, Luke 15:22). Hence, even back then, right from the start, in Eden, the gospel had been revealed to humanity.
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We are all familiar with the consequences of sin. Pain, suffering, sickness and death are all part of the sin scenario. However there is one question that is raised that is worth consideration. C S Lewis in his little tome, "The Problem of Pain" asks this question in his usual challenging style:
C S Lewis goes on to discuss this dilemma. Essentially there is something beyond ourselves linking our sense of the omnipotent with our perception of morality. He punctuates his argument with this:
He goes on to say:
All quotes from C S Lewis, The Problem of Pain; Introduction.
Scripture is abundantly clear; God, the Creator, CANNOT lie (Tit 1:2 (read it in context). Scripture is clear; His COMMANDMENTS are positively life-affirming (Ps 19:7-8,11; Eze 20:11,13; Dt 8:3)--good enough for the incarnate Creator Himself to eat of it (Mt 4:4)! Therefore, His first recorded COMMANDMENT (Gen 2:16-17) was clear, unadulterated, TRUTH. Subsequently, Adam's CHOICE that day WAS his DEATH, which has placed every person since then in an inherited, inescapable, state of death (Rm 5:12; 3:23; 1 Cor 15:22). Ever since the Adam incident, our God of love has been laser focused on one thing--the restoration of humanity from its inherited, inescapable, diseased state, which Scripture calls "death".
So, what is "death"? Well, Scripture records that Adam was created one being in two parts (Gen 2:7). The "dust" was a reference to the PHYSICAL part of Adam's being--his body. The "breath" was a reference to the NON-PHYSICAL part of his being--his mind/sentience. God created Adam one being, consisting of two inseparable parts. Now, God provided holistically for Adam's life--physical food for his physical being (Gen 1:29-30; 2:16), AND spiritual "food" for his non-physical being (Gen 2:17; Mt 4:4; 1 Pt 2:2). Adam's CHOICE, however, severed his non-physical being from his Creator and Sustainer (Gen 3:8,22-23), but he remained physically alive with access to the physical food supplied by his Creator. SURELY that day, according to God's truthful declaration, Adam, Eve, and every single human descended from them (excluding Christ) has been born in a state of "death" or spiritual disconnection from our Creator (Rm 8:6-7; Gen 6:5-6; Eph 2:1-2).
The first Gospel promise began to reveal the only efficacious solution to our "death" problem. Christ, solely by His death, secured the right to restore "our life" by subduing the one who took "our life" (Mt 12:28-29; Heb 2:14-15), and "breathe" His Spirit into us again (Gen 2:7; Jn 20:22)! The first Gospel promise is all about the "enmity" He would place between the "Seed" of the woman and the "seed" of the serpent (Gal 5:17-18). His gift of Grace is at the heart of His Gospel (Zech 12:10 NKJV; Gal 3:8,14; Eph 2:7-8,18; Heb 10:29)!
It is my hope that as we study this series of lessons, we will be spared confusing the physical death (that we will all eventually experience) with the SPIRITUAL "death" we all are born experiencing in Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rm 5:12). The good news is that there are two Adams (1 Cor 15:45)--the Second having the ability to raise the "dead" (Mt 11:5-6; Act 10:38; Mt 9:6). May we each experience God's Gospel of overcoming "death" and rising to walk in His new life (2 Cor 1:21-22; Eph 2:10).
Dear Lynrol - I read your comment with great interest and appreciation of your candor. May I highlight something you said which caught my attention.
Found in the next to the last paragraph you state: “The first Gospel promise began to reveal the only efficacious solution to our “death” problem. Christ, solely by His death, secured the right to restore “our life” by subduing the one who took our life”.
And in your last paragraph you state the hope that “we will be spared confusing the physical death .... with the SPIRITUAL 'death’ we all are born experiencing in Adam."
As you stated, it is also my observation that only Life can beget life. For clarity’s sake, may I therefore qualify Jesus’ death on the cross to be only that of His body, never His spirit. Therefore, He can now subdue by the power invested in His 'Spirit' “the one who took ‘our life’s spirit’, and breath His Spirit into us again.”
His body dying on the cross has taken away our fear of the physical death by qualifying our 'Life' in Him through His Spirit, assuring us that we live the true Life as we are in Him, His Spirit.
I was shocked to see in the “Teachers Edition” of the SS Lesson in the “Teacher’s Comments” section, this:
Part I: Overview – “God created a perfect world without sin, evil, violence, insecurity, sickness, and death. He is the God of life, the Source of life, and the Giver of life.” WOW!!
And then in Part II: Commentary, the subheading reads, “Satan, the Author of Destruction and Death” WOW x2!!
This is very important to understand.
If God is the Source of life, and Satan is the author (source) of destruction and death, neither of these sources can produce the results of the other.
Notice what James says in chapter 3, verse 11, 12:
Verse 11: “Doth a fountain send forth at the same place [source] sweet water AND bitter?” The obvious answer is, “No.”
Verse 12: “Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? Either a vine, figs? So can no fountain [place of source] both yield salt water and fresh.”
So, this is saying that if your source is LIFE, if this is your fountain, you cannot also produce DEATH from that SAME source, it’s as impossible as it is for a fig tree to produce berries!
In chapter 1 of James, verse 17, he says, “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”
God is the FATHER of lights, which means as a Father, He reproduces as His “offspring” ONLY light. John agrees in 1 John 1:5 when he says, “that God is light, and in Him is NO darkness at all.” And we also see that in John 1:4, that, “In him was life; and the life was the LIGHT of men.” God is the Father of LIFE. And what is Satan, the “Father of lies” (John 8:44), and he comes only to “steal, KILL, and destroy…” (John 10:10).
So, the lesson has plainly stated that God CANNOT produce death, violence, sickness, etc. because His Source is Life, and LIFE only!
And destruction, and death MUST come from Satan, only, because he is the author of it.
So, why do we as Christians (SdA’s more specifically since this was stated in our lesson book) attribute to God the qualities of Satan??
I wonder if the lesson author(s) is aware of his own implications by his statements.
I am curious, Benjamin, as to where you see this.
Hello, Maurice.
Well, I see it/hear it in many sermons, talks, articles, etc. Have you not heard yourself that God brings destruction, kills people, nations, etc. whether by His own Hand or by proxy.
According to the lesson (supported by scripture) which plainly points out that God cannot possibly be the Source of 2 opposing productions, namely, Life and Death. But how often do we hear that God is working both in destruction and restoration from pulpits? Is God wrestling with Himself?
Ellen G White says, "“Jesus Christ is the restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer.." Christ Triumphant p.247
If Satan is the author of "destruction and death" as the lesson points out, then how can God produce the same results when His Source (Life) is categorically in contrast? It's quite hard to see the Essence of Life, killing and causing death without some major cognitive dissonance happening.
This is how we in brief have been attributing the dark characteristics of Satan to our "Father of Lights" (James 1:17).
It is so interesting that Ellen White says, that,
"It is Satan’s constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy...The cruelty inherent in his (Satan's) own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship.” GC 569
I do hear it, but it is usually in the context of insurance companies who describe floods fires and other natural disasters as "acts of God". That is a description that I take exception to. However Adventist theology has always made a clear distinction between who is the source of good and who is the source of evil.
Hello Benjamin,
If you hear that sort of thing in Adventist churches in your area, I'm guessing you're not writing from North America ore Europe - or from Australia, where Maurice is located.
It seems that our church has, in some areas taken on some of the characteristics of the belief systems from which people were converted. But that doesn't strike me *Adventist* teaching.
Since the same Sabbath School lessons are studied world-wide, it's a good thing that these lessons set the record straight, isn't it?
Maurice, Inge,
Thank you for your responses.
I am indeed writing from North America, and I hear from all over Adventism that God will destroy the wicked, and that He wiped out nations, because He had to in order to "preserve" Israel, or He killed Nadab and Abihu when they entered the MHP with strange fire, and He killed Ananias and his wife, I could go on and on. But It seems you both agree with what I have presented here. Him (God) being the Source of Life prevents Him ever from being able to produce death.
Maurice, I have never heard an Adventist minister present God as the active agent in disasters as insurance companies do, but I do hear them making God the active agent in the Genesis flood, which makes me wonder why they don't believe God is also responsible for today's disasters.
This has also been forwarded in our Adult Sabbath School lessons, Inge, so the record is still crooked. Just ask a sister or brother whether or not God kills, and he/she would likely say, "Yes." I would love to be proved wrong about that, but I hear that answer often from in our circles.
I think we all agree that God is the Source of life, because that's what the Bible says and that's what makes Him God.
I'm not sure I would call Satan the "author of death" though. That's because death is simply the absence of life. It doesn't require an "author." Satan cannot create anything more than other created beings can create. He only destroys and twists what God created.
You seem to say that because God is the Author of life, He cannot withdraw that life (destroy/kill) when the occasion demands it. But that is your interpretation of a single Bible text that is used in a very different context.
It also seems to me that you are attributing to "SdA's more specifically" the words of Bible writers.
We didn't write Genesis 6:17: "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."
We didn't write the account of the golden calf and God's judgment of the people involved in Exodus 32 not even Ex. 32:26,27: "Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour." (Is God responsible for what He commands, or isn't He?)
We didn't write Leviticus 10:1,2 about fire coming out from the Lord and devouring Nadab and Abihu.
We didn't write Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive."
I could go on, as you surely know.
I affirm again, that God is the Source of all life. We do not have life in ourselves and Satan cannot grant it.
Satan is the originator of sin, whose wages is death. The Bible also gives us some indication of how those "wages" are meted out, but that is another subject.
Hi, Benjamin. I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly with what you have pointed out from the SS lesson and from the Bible. However, you seem to have misunderstood the implications of these sublime truths. It's not just SDA preachers and teachers who have said that God killed Ananias and Sapphira, Nadab and Abihu, Sodom and Gommorah, and virtually the whole world in the flood -- and that He will finally destroy sin and sinners in the fires of Gehenna. It is the Bible that proclaims these things as facts. So our job is not to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible, but to prayerfully and reverently seek to reconcile its sometimes paradoxical statements.
Personally, I do not see any great difficulty here. God is not the source of death and destruction; Satan is. However, God's character of love and light apparently does not preclude Him from wisely administering the situation that has been foisted on Him by Satan and his followers.
God will ultimately destroy sin and sinners in the fires of Gehenna, administering perfect justice to the rejectors of His grace. But this will not take place until the truth of everything has been made plain, and even those who are to perish in the flames will have had to admit that they alone are responsible for that outcome.
I fear that we may be trying to oversimplify God in an unconscious attempt to control or outwit Him. As true penitents, we are not going to want to do that. He is our only hope, and He is the very personification of love!
Inge,
You say, you wouldn't call satan the "author of death" because "death is simply the absence of life." Yes, death is the absence of life, but that does not mean that there cannot be an author ("causer" G159, "chief leader, captain prince G747).
If the Bible refers to satan as the 'father of lies" this is no different than saying that satan is the author of lies. Because as you would agree according to your own definitions, that a "lie" is the absence of truth. And the Bible still says that satan is the father of lies. Therefore, you can call satan the father/author of all things that are contrary to God, such as life, truth, love, etc.
I have not said as you stated, "that He (God) cannot withdraw that life (destroy/kill) when the occasion demands it." In God all life is and have its being. However, when God withdraws this is not done arbitrarily, but by request of the sinner, which if God was to refuse to let go, He would be violating the first law of love, which is freedom. This does not mean that God has destroyed or killed according to your understanding as you have pointed out in the many scriptures that you have listed, though you have misunderstood these texts.
If I am to take your same approach and offer more scriptures, would you continue in the same manner as you have with your aforementioned texts??
You gave many texts that appear to show God as actively destroying/killing people, and you obviously accept them at face value, for you have not offered any further explanation of the texts beside the texts themselves.
I implore you, do the same with the following:
Who sends deception (lies) upon humanity?
2 Thess. 2:11 -And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Ezekiel 14:9 -And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Does God think of evil?
Ex. 32:14 -And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
1 Cor. 13:5 - [Love] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Did God condone the acts of king David in his wars that He led him into?
1 Chronicles 28:3 - But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
And as you say, I also could go on, nor did I write these accounts.
My point with this is that we cannot take the many texts you and I both listed at face value, just because it may suit our presuppositional fancies. We must place line upon line and precept upon precept to arrive at truth.
Yes, I agree that the wages of sin is death, and as the Bible shows, God does not pay those wages, but the death that comes from sin, is present inherent in the sin itself. God does not need to help sin do what it cannot help but to do, and that is kill.
Benjamin, I am not Inge, but I have seen this discussion go on for a long time. Typically a lot of texts are quoted and explanations are offered, Some folk take one point of view while others take a different point of view. Both sides claim that they have Spirit-led answers. No matter which side of the argument you end up on, there are always situations in the Bible that are difficult to explain.
Let me offer an illustration. I grew up on a mixed sheep/dairy farm. My grandfather was the shepherd and he used a couple of sheepdogs to help manage the sheep. I was a three-year old at the time of this incident. My grandfather was moving sheep from one paddock to another and I was standing beside him helping. Suddenly, Towser the dog turned on me and bit me on the head. I was knocked to the ground and sustained a bite mark on my head. My grandfather bundled me up and took me home, then took out the rifle and shot the dog.
For a long time, I felt very guilty because I thought that it was my fault that Towser had been shot. In my childish mind I thought that I had done something wrong and that Grandad had been evil in killing the dog. It was not until I was an adult and understood a lot more that I realized that all along Grandad had my best interest at heart.
In the battle between good and evil, I am sure that some of our understanding of God is limited and simplistic. In the meantime I am quite prepared to live with some, "I don't understand this!" situations and accept that there are alternative explanations.
Hi again, Benjamin. From the texts that you have cited, it appears you are taking the position that, whenever the Bible represents God as taking an action that directly brings harm to people, that is merely the idiom of the Hebrew prophets -- that in fact God has never brought, and never will bring, such harm upon anyone, either personally or by proxy. I take it that when you say, "by proxy," you mean, for instance, sending an angel to carry out the act of destruction. However, all it would take to disprove your position is a single instance of God undeniably acting to take human life. I will cite such an instance before concluding this comment.
Maurice has given an excellent example, from his own experience, to show that, on a human level at least, there can be times when love must destroy or take a life. Unlike Maurice, I cannot draw such an instance from my own experience, but I shall use a common illustration. I think you will see why.
Suppose you are living 200 years ago, and riding your horse across the great plains of the USA. Through no fault or negligence of your own, your horse steps into a hole and breaks its leg. You are not so far from human habitations but that you can manage to hike out. However, you are in no position to do anything for your horse. Your only two options are to leave it to die slowly on its own, or to shoot it and put it out of its misery. So, as a loving person who cares deeply about your horse, you just leave it to let death take its natural course. Right? Of course not!
This is analogous to God's clearly communicated decision that He will annihilate sin and sinners in the fires of Gehenna. He could leave sinners to ultimately destroy themselves, but that would only multiply the suffering involved in their eventual and inevitable end. Once all of the facts are in, the whole universe (including the lost who are to perish in the flames) will be able to see and acknowledge God's justice and mercy in acting to destroy the finally impenitent. You cannot deny that Gehenna is an act of God Himself, not an act of Satan, seeing that Satan himself is to be annihilated.
You have stated that "God does not need to help sin do what it cannot help but to do, and that is kill." Your audacity, in trying to say what God does or does not need to do, frankly takes my breath away. Psalm 135:6 declares that God does whatever He pleases, and Romans 14:11 quotes Isaiah as saying that, in the end, every knee shall bow.
My point is that neither you nor I am in any position to say what God can or cannot do, must or must not do, consistent with His character of love and light. The facts will vindicate His actions and decisions in the end. The only choice we have is to be among those will joyfully acknowledge that He has been just and merciful in ALL of His dealings with sin and sinners, or to be among those who grudgingly acknowledge the same.
In reply to Benjamin Dwayne on October 8
Benjamin, thank you for your reply. You suggested that Adventists attribute to God the attributes of Satan, presumably based on referring to God as the One who judges and destroys the wicked.
My purpose in mentioning those texts was solely to demonstrate that Bible writers from Moses to John the Revelator use such language. So does Ellen White, for that matter. So your accusation of that Adventists "attribute to God the qualities of Satan" stands equally against Moses and other Bible writers. (Perhaps you should rethink your approach?)
I did not go into *interpretation* of each of these texts, since that goes even farther astray from the lesson of the day which is about *Hope* found in the first gospel promise.
I suggest that using one or very few Bible texts as a basis to suggest that many others mean something different than they appear to mean is not using a good method of hermeneutics.
Interpretations can vary greatly, that's why our Creator God, who is the very best Communicator in the universe, became one with us, *demonstrating* the character of God in the life of Jesus. So let's take our cues from Him.
As Maurice has suggested, we may have to live with the tension of not totally understanding just how everything fits together. I'm afraid that trying to fit all of God's actions into our categories of allowed actions of God will inevitably lead to making God too small.
Inge, R.G.,
Thank you both for your responses, and Maurice, too.
I see that this topic is a lengthy one to discuss, especially in an online forum. However, I believe that you are all missing the point and are straying from God being the Source of Life and fitting that into the idea that He can somehow cause Death by using Life, it's absolutely impossible.
I'm sure in this online capacity this conversation could go on long, and misunderstandings will increase. Bible language has confused so many on the topic of the character of God, but we cannot read a Hebrew/Greek Bible with a Western mind. You believe that you are correct in your position, because you can find texts that say what you want on the surface. But neither of you are able to honestly wrestle with the texts I have listed using the same hermeneutics. However, I have no problem doing that with your texts, because Jesus is my hermeneutic. We ought to read the OT testament with the veil removed in Christ as the writer of Hebrews says. But I digress.
A book that discusses this topic using Bible and SoP extensively is entitled "As He Is" by Kevin Straub. I highly suggest it.
An article titled, "Righteous Evil: The quest for a hermeneutic for the standard view. Written by the same author is another great resource and challenge to those who believe in a destroying God. I can send it to anyone wants it, and you can offer me information as well, I will gladly read and consider it. I believe this is the way to honestly assess each point of view, to discover truth as it is in Jesus, without bias and openness of information.
If this is not something you wish to do, very well, I always do enjoy growing and learning from others whenever the opportunity arises. God bless!
Thank you, Benjamin, for the blessings that you have pronounced upon us all. You say we believe that we are correct because we can find texts that say what we want on the surface, and that we are unable to honestly wrestle with the texts that you have listed in a consistent way, but that you have no such problems, since Jesus is your hermeneutic.
From this I take it that you find it helpful to look at the life and teachings of Jesus, and to let these be your definition of love. Amen to that!
As for dealing with all of those texts in detail, I agree that none of us has attempted to do so. In this forum, we have to keep our comments brief, so we find it necessary to "pick our battles," so to speak. Clearly, all four of us have chosen rather to raise objections to your theory, using both Scripture and common sense.
If you feel that you have adequately answered our objections, I doubt that any of us feels a burden to pursue the matter any further. It is not our place to insist that you learn from us, or that you change your mind. You may very well be the best and most loving Christian among us all.
For my part, I will appreciate what I see as your sincerely motivated efforts to extol the wonderful character of our God!
R.G. White,
You and Maurice both keep giving illustrations that does not do justice to God's character. He is not limited as we are. God in my situation with the horse would simply heal the horse.
By the way, Gehenna is not an act of God. God burns no human being with fire until they die. that is an arbitrary act of torture that serves no purpose for anyone.
It is not my "audacity" to say what God can and cannot do, it is the Bible that I am reflecting, not my own thoughts. The Bible says, "Evil shall slay the wicked" and God is not evil.
You believe that when the Bible says, God does whatever He pleases, that that means He can even do things that goes against His character because He is God?? Now that's audacity. God can only do what Love is, and Love does no evil. So I can say with confidence that God does not partner with sin and kills the sinner.
Hi, Benjamin. I will assert that God would love to "heal the horse." However, in the end, the rejectors of His grace have, by the perverse action of their God-given free will, hardened their hearts against repentance until there is nothing more that even God can do for them. This is how evil shall slay the wicked. It will make their destruction absolutely necessary and inevitable, just as you simply could not heal your horse.
Whether or not you or I can understand, at this point in time, God's justice and mercy (and consistency with His character of love) in His act of destroying the wicked -- or in His other acts of taking human life from time to time, according to the biblical record -- is irrelevant. That's because, when the facts are all in, we shall certainly see it then. In the meantime, we have sufficient evidence of His love to give us faith that even His "strange acts" are righteous altogether.
So, God's doing as He pleases does not involve His acting contrary to His character, but it certainly can involve His acting contrary to what you or I might suppose His character will necessitate. This is what I meant by audacity. If you think that you have sufficient wisdom and knowledge to predict what God will or will not do -- and to strain Bible interpretation sufficiently to fit your highly questionable theory -- then far be it from me to try any further to dissuade you. Nevertheless, I would warn any reader not to follow in your footsteps, because it cannot possibly end well.
Is it evil to put a stop to evil?
One of the biggest accusations against God that I hear in the world time and time again is this:
If God is a God of love why doesn't He do something to stop all the evil and suffering in this world? Just look at evil powerful humans who are ruining and causing great misery to millions of lives. Why doesn't God do something if He is a God of love?
Then on the other hand, we have people saying, if God puts forth His hand to stop and remove those causing all that evil, than He is not love and is evil Himself!!!
Either way the character of God is attacked.
Well, God is love, He is long suffering, not willing that any perish, pleading "why will you die, turn from your evil ways and live, the door of mercy is open", but He WILL also do something, He WILL obliterate evil and not allow it to obliterate all good.
He is LOVE! He will not force anyone to "turn from their evil ways and live". He will honor their free choice, and He will stop evil, and deliver all who turn to Him for salvation.
Satan uses both God's mercy and longsuffering as well as God's decisive acts of putting a stop to evil to accuse God of not being love.
One of the most powerful passages in scripture that shows God will step in when evil is threatening to take full control, is found in Numbers 16. What I see in this passage is that ascribing the judgments of God to satan is a very serious thing.
In the account, a very sizable leadership in Israel revolted against God's chosen leaders, Moses and Aaron. In essence they were revolting against God and His high priest. They were coming up, and propagating much the same agenda as Lucifer used in heaven when he revolted against Christ's authority.
Numbers 16:3 You take too much upon yourself, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then do you lift yourselves up above the congregation of the LORD?
We can read the whole story in Numbers 16, the earth swallows the key leaders, and fire comes forth from God and destroys the 250 princes.
What happens the next day? The people accuse Moses --
Numbers 16:41 You have killed the people of the LORD.
This is a very serious accusation.
" they rejected light until they became so blinded that the most striking manifestations of His (God's) power were not sufficient to convince them; they attributed them all to human or satanic agency....Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom." PP405
Some see this story as a great injustice that could not possible be the work of God, so they too, attribute the death of the rebels to satan, (which in essence makes satan as partnering with God to stop the rebellion???) Yet others see God's mercy and concern that truth not be obliterated and that the censor of mercy which had been usurped was, in the hands of the high priest, able to give the rebellious multitude another chance to accept God's gift of life. While censors were in the hands of the rebellious princes claiming holiness in their own righteousness, those censors of mercy offered no pardon for sin, it was only when the high priest (signifying Christ) took the censer that pardon was available and the execution of justice was stayed.
According to the Apostle Paul it is "The Fear of Death" that makes man "subject to bondage." Then in 2Timothy 1:7 he says there that God has given us "Power, Love, and a sound mind," in place of that "fear." So it is in the "Second Adam," that we are freed from "The Fear of Death." The "Hope of Eternal Life in Christ," frees us from the "Fear," of the Second Death which is "Eternal Death."
R.G.,
I totally understand picking our battles, that's why I mentioned that an online forum would not necessarily do justice to this topic. I wouldn't say that I have adequately answered your objections, either, I try to present basic points, but I have not given any exhaustive answers. I believe that you all are believing that you have accurately represented God, and that you are honest in your approaches. Who is the most loving? I don't know, and don't care, but what I do know is that no one is most loved by God, because He loves all the same.
I hope that we all will begin to see just how loving our God is more and more each day.
Amen to that, Benjamin, and although I do hold that God, in his infinite love and wisdom, will ultimately see fit to annihilate hopelessly impenitent sinners, rather than leave them to slowly and miserably destroy each other and themselves, I can't believe that we haven't mentioned one truth that is so vitally important concerning the character of God! And that is Ezekiel 33:11.
"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’"
We may sometimes have a tendency to enjoy seeing people get what we think they have coming to them. Right, Kevin Straub, my brother? But God is not like that. While God's infinite love does entail seeing that perfect justice is done, how He wishes that He never had to punish or destroy. It breaks His heart!
Thankfully, God's end goal will absolutely be achieved. Death will be the last enemy to be destroyed, and all will be love and peace for all eternity!
Hi, R.G.,
I do not want to take up your time any further, but I must comment to your conceptions of God. It is very interesting that you quote Ezekiel 33:11 and directly contrast it in your first statement. The text reads, “…For why should you DIE, O house of Israel?” It doesn’t say, “Why should you let Me kill/annihilate you, O house of Israel?” But you say that, “God, in his infinite love and wisdom, will ultimately see fit to annihilate hopelessly impenitent sinners…” But this verse is contradictory to your statement, because it says nothing of God annihilating the wicked.
Yes, Kevin Straub is an author who I am familiar with and have read his books, and articles, not sure if you know him or not.
If you believe that God’s perfect justice is punishing/destroying the wicked, since Christ died for us, did God kill His Son for our sakes, since His death will be the death the wicked must die, it has to be the same??
You say death is the last enemy to be destroyed (this is true), but if God causes death, will a part of His eternal character die, too, making Him different than He used to be?
I’m sorry, you don’t have to answer, lol. But I believe your thinking needed to be investigated. I appreciate the convo, and yes, I learn from those I agree and disagree with, so I remain a student. God Bless!
Benjamin and others. I think it is time for us to leave this thread as there are other issues to discuss. It goes without saying that there are a couple of differences of opinion on how God is revealed to us as good. I am old and have seen the same arguments for many years and have listened to proposed resolutions. One thing that I have learned is that participants rarely chacnge their views. I have also learned that when we enter such arguments we often take an extreme view of what the other side believes. That is not helpful. My suggestion is that we leave the topic for a while. That does not mean to say that we cannot revisit it at a later date. But, there are other aspects of the lesson we need to turn our attention to. Thank you for participating and understanding. Maurice