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Thursday: The Second Death — 20 Comments

  1. You may be surprised that I have been reading the Roman Catholic Catechism this week. It has a fair bit to say about hell. In section 1033 we read:

    This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

    To be honest, and to show that I am not cherry-picking, the Catechism goes on to talk about eternal flames and so on. However, I think that Catholic theologians have essentially stated the reason why we end up in this condition. And most of us would agree with them.

    Further:

    God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance" Catechism 1037

    I submit that while we disagree with our Catholic friends on how hell is carried out, their rationale and ours of how we end up there are pretty similar.

    Pope John Paul II struck a similar note, telling visiting pilgrims that ''more than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.'' In other words, the Pope said, it is not a loving God who sends people to hell, but individuals who consign themselves to hell through unrepentant sin. Reported in the New York Times, Sept 18, 1999

    Now I am not suggesting that we go to the Catholics for our theology. I could have quoted many Seventh-day Adventist writers who say similar things. However, it should be noted that the precursor to "Hell" or the "Second Death" is a deliberate choice on our part to cut ourselves off from God. Whatever happens, after we make that decision, is in the control of a compassionate non-capricious God.

    (46)
  2. I would invite consideration and conversation regarding the underpinning but unstated assumption inherent to today's lesson: that unless God annihilates the wicked at the end, sin will continue - and that is why love must necessarily and functionally directly annihilate sin and sinners.

    So I would ask: If God were to do nothing more than completely release the restraint He is exercising (under probation) against the full consequences of sin and sinners, would sin and sinners merely keep on existing? Put another way, is sin actually a viable state of existence?

    If the answer to the above question is yes, then it is absolutely correct that, from a functional perspective, God would need to actively annihilate sin and sinners and therefore that love incorporates such active annihilation.

    Your thoughts?

    (8)
    • Phil – Your question: 'would sin and sinners merely keep on existing if God's restraint would be released'? I answer with a conditional ‘yes’, considering that ‘sin and sinners merely keep on existing until the end of their earthly life'; some more, some less ‘successful’ as they submit to by their ‘ego’ chosen way of self-serving/-sustaining existence; but they do not inherit eternal life. Life on earth will receive a new 'lease on life'. 🙂

      Like you, I do not think that God’s love functionally annihilates sin and sinners. They choose the life of incremental, increasing ‘lawlessness’, separation from God’s life-giving influence of His spirit of Love/Life, as they submit to their 'ego's' choice/expression of free will.

      I think that the potential to sin will always remain as it is covered/dealt with from within/as part of the Trinity’s design of Creation. As long as there are beings living with free will, that living soul has the potential to reject God’s Way of Truth and Life.

      (0)
    • Let's talk about the first death a little more, for it may shed some light on the second death.

      In the garden Adam and Eve were told that they would surely die if they ate the forbidden fruit. They ate, and even though it took many years, they died. In fact, everyone except Enoch and Elijah, lived their years and died. They all died, or as some have interpreted this, "dying they die".

      Now, if God had not intervened, what would have happened?

      1. The first death, for everyone, would have been their end. Whatever life each person had, it would have been all, nothing beyond. Without Christ stepping in as man's substitute, the first death would be the last; there would be no resurrection for anyone.

      2. The wicked would have sought to rid the earth of all those who still clung to God's ways. Seems they nearly succeeded in Noah's day.

      3. As long as God still gave them the breath of life, the wicked would have continued in their downward spiral, but still having minds to think, I would presume they would seek to make their own laws to try to keep things liveable.

      But God did intervene.

      1. He opened the way to give people HOPE.

      1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Jesus] also came the resurrection of the dead.
      1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

      The only reason there will be resurrections for anyone, is because Jesus died in our place, and thus we can be forgiven, cleansed, and have the hope of the resurrection and eternal life. Those who accept that gift and make Jesus their Lord and Savior, will not die the second death, they can have eternal life!

      Those who reject that gift will be raised, for Jesus died for all and thus all will be raised. Yet they will not have eternal life, because they rejected the gift of God through Jesus Christ Who stepped in, died and rose, to make life beyond the first death possible.

      God had made full provision for them to have eternal life, but they rejected it.

      They are raised, for Christ bought for them that privilege by breaking the power of the grave. Christ didn't provide for them that awesome privilege just to have them die again, but they chose to reject His grace and thus chose death, by being rebellious against the very one who did so much to save them. That rebellion is so deep seated they were willing to dethrone God Himself and take the city for themselves.

      Should God again provide for them the breath of life and let those billions of rebels continue in sin on the earth, harassing the saints and the city, for many more generations, till finally they may kill each other off? No, God will make a complete and final end to all sin.

      (6)
  3. Perplexed now about the topic, some of us Christians are now turn to trusting self. NO!
    The one who began the good work in you will continue it till that day of our Lord. Philippians 1:16

    Many accept an intellectual religion, a form of godliness, when the heart is not cleansed. Deal truly with your own soul. This is a matter to be settled between God and your own soul, settled for eternity.

    Isaiah 53:6

    Every act of transgression, every act of neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less and less capable of of yielding to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit.

    As you see the enormity of sin, do not give up in despair. Let's see:

    Psalm 139:23-24
    Psalm 51:10
    Hebrews 8:12-13

    May the grace of our Lord be upon you, brethren.

    (18)
  4. Yesterday i asked why the wicked were raised to just be cast into the fire. Following comments suggest that it is so they can acknowledge that God is just. Why is that important? If they stayed dead they wouldn't see Him as unfair because they don't know anything in the grave.

    (7)
    • That is an interesting question Larry. Could it be that God wants total vindication of his character and wants no one to die believing Satan's delusions, so they are resurrected and admit God was righteous? Just a thought.

      (5)
    • Yes, this is a very good question and one that had me puzzled for awhile. As Inge and S.Hall have already indicated, it is about total transparency. And while it does serve the purpose of proving to the wicked that God is just, I think we can also say that this circles back to satisfy the questions of the righteous who will want to know that the final decision of their friends and family were justly (and not unjustly) rewarded (punished). They can witness for themselves the confession of the wicked that God is just.

      (5)
    • My pastor did a sermon on the judgment and he said that if the wicked were not resurrected, the righteous might be left to think, "If he/she had one more chance, they would turn to God." The events when they are resurrected will show clearly that God cannot do anything more for these people. They are set on opposing Him. And we will be satisfied that their condemnation is just.

      (7)
  5. I really thank God, 1) because He is love, 2) because He is perfect, 3) because He is the One to make the perfect and loving judgment on everyone, 4) because He is willing to save anyone, but will not be able to do so for those who do not want Him! He respects rejection! Perhaps with sadness, but He respects our decisions.

    (14)
  6. All I can say is that I am content in the reassurance to know that God’s justice is based entirely on His unfailing love for His creation. At the same time, though, it deeply saddens me that so many miss out on experiencing His life-giving Spirit of Love during their lifetime and the opportunity to receive everlasting life.

    Yes, the temptation to do ‘evil’ exerts a strong influence on our world, but God’s love is stronger; it overcomes its urges when allowed to establish roots within the heart of man. Every living soul is endowed with the life-giving spirit of our Creator, having received the ability to live its life in perpetuity if so chosen. There will be no pleasure in all the Universe when those who rejected the offer of true life meet their final destination.

    Then, peace and goodwill among man will fill the New Earth, and all God’s servants – angels and man alike - will rejoice in their now exceedingly satisfying relationship with each other. Rev.21:22-24; 8-9 – “Worship God with all your heart"!

    (3)
  7. Will Satan be present at the Investigative Judgement? Ellen White states that ‘While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors’ CIHS 179.1 and quotes Zechariah 3:2 -

    And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?. KJV — Zechariah 3:2

    If Satan is present then it appears that he knows when our names will be called so that he can accuse us and he will have some incline of when the Second Coming will occur.

    If he isn’t present, does the defence of the righteous take place during the final judgement?

    (1)
    • Hi, Gemma.

      I looked up your Ellen White quotation, where Satan is said to be present before God and accusing the subjects of Jesus' grace. The same passage also appears in the chapter "Facing Life's Record" in The Great Controversy. This chapter is about the judgment that takes place while "men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above."

      I am assuming that you are accepting her testimony as fact, and that this was your question: Is she saying that Satan is accusing the righteous, and Jesus defending them, prior to His return, or during the final judgment? Clearly, it's during the ordinary, earthly life of the wicked. This suggests that, when Jesus returns to rescue His own, they are forever rescued from any and all accusation and reproach. And the Book of Life is opened during the final phase of the judgment, only in order to show that the names of the righteous are there, and the names of the wicked are not there. If they were ever entered into the record, they have since been blotted out.

      Have a blessed day!

      (3)
      • And yet, even Ellen White was willing to accept that there could have been "mistakes" in her own expositions of scripture. Her own quote made in 1892 and can be found in her book "Counsels to Editors and Writers" page 35, "There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible." So what were those "doctrines," that we had been holding for many years as being truth? Was not one of them about "The Investigative Judement" that supposedly started in 1844 when Jesus did not returned as expected and then "We" went on to say that He did come but not to this earth but to the last compartment somewhere in the universe to start that judgement? And here we are still trying to push that as still being truth. We need to do what she said to do and make The Bible and The Bible Only our truth.

        (1)
        • Yes, Pete, I've heard that idea, that our pioneers simply made up this story about the judgment in order to cover for their mistake in predicting Jesus' return on October 22, 1844. If some choose to believe that, it's their right. However, I don't see much room for any middle ground.

          To invent such a "cover story" would reveal a base character in our pioneers, including Ellen White herself. At the very least, it would show that God was not behind the movement, nor could her claim to the prophetic gift be supported.

          For me, the Bible evidence to support the position of our pioneers is rock-solid, and the spiritual quality of Ellen White's writings speaks for itself. If, by "doctrines that we had been holding for many years but were not truth," she had meant to include the judgment beginning in 1844, then she would not have taught it herself. She considered this teaching, that she called one of "the truths of the sanctuary question," to be one of the non-negotiable "pillars" of Seventh-day Adventism. So, it seems to me that we can either accept this teaching, or reject the entire movement as not of God.

          (4)
          • Thanks, R.G. White. The truth of the "Sanctuary" is in the book of Leviticus, the book of Hebrews, and I am sure that the book of Revelation has it too. And these three books were already here way before the 1844 experience of the Non Seventh Day Adventists at that time who were expecting Jesus to come then. And what does Leviticus say that "Cleansed the Sanctuary" in those days? It was the sprinkled blood of the bullock and Lords' goat to the furniture and compartment of the second compartment of the Sanctuary then during the middle of their year called "The Day of Atonement." And what was it that "Cleansed the Sanctuary" according to the Apostle Paul in his book "The Book of Hebrews?" That book discusses mainly what "The Day of Atonement" symbolized and how it was accomplished by Jesus when He arose to present Himself to His Father as the "Ultimate Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world," and Paul further supports this fact in Romans 5:11 saying that in Jesus "we now have the atonement." And how does the Book of Revelation indicate the truth of "The cleansing of the Sanctuary?" It is very clear in Chapter 4 of that book. First John sees a door that is opened in Heaven, (This he sees way before the 1844 experience of our pioneers.) Then he sees a throne, Then John sees seven lamps ( these John says are the seven Spirits of God and which also in Chapter 1 says that these also are the seven stars and also the seven angels of "The Seven Churches.") So you see, Jesus had already risen and also "Cleansed the Heavenly Sanctuary too." This is why I believe that EGW went on to say what she said in her quote in 1892.

            (0)
  8. To keep us in the peace that passeth all understanding, Philippians 4:7. Thank God we have two witnesses. Revelation 11:3.

    The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy. Great Contrversy 88 267.1

    What a wounderful dissertation Ulrike and Cyrus give us of the hope we have through Jesus Christ by turning to the Word of the two witnesses, lifting us out the dilusions of Satan.
    John 14:26-27.
    John 16:33.

    (3)

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