Thursday: Sola Scriptura and Ellen G. White
Read Isaiah 8:20. Why is it always important to refer back to the biblical “law and testimony” as the norms for our teaching and doctrine? What does this mean for the ministry of prophets who have not become part of the biblical canon?
When we talk about sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Seventh-day Adventists are inevitably confronted with the question of what to do with Ellen G. White, who also was inspired by God and served as God’s messenger to His remnant people. What is the relationship of her writings to Scripture?
Image © Steve Creitz at Goodsalt.com
Even a cursory reading of Ellen G. White’s writings shows clearly that for her, the Bible was foundational and central in all her thought and theology. In fact, she repeatedly affirmed that the Bible is the highest authority and ultimate norm and standard for all doctrines, faith, and practice (see The Great Controversy, p. 595). Moreover, she clearly supported and upheld the great Protestant principle of sola Scriptura (see The Great Controversy, p. 9).
In Ellen G. White’s own view, her writings, when compared with Scripture, were a “lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light”, the Bible (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 20, 1903). Her writings are never a shortcut to or replacement for any serious Bible study. In fact, she comments: “You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God’s word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourself with God’s inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies”. — Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, p. 605.
As such, her writings are to be appreciated. They share the same kind of inspiration as the biblical writers had, but they have a different function than does the Bible. Her writings are not an addition to Scripture but are subject to Holy Scripture. She never intended her writings to take the place of Scripture; instead, she elevated the Bible as the only standard for faith and practice.
| Think about what an incredible gift we have been given through the ministry of Ellen G. White. How can we learn to appreciate better the amazing light coming from her while also upholding the supremacy of Scripture? |
(25)
How to appreciate the gift?
By using it as it was intended, reading it and then going back to the Bible to discover where the advice in her writings got its origin.
Secondly to not use the writings to win points on any issue, if you can't show the reason from the Bible.
Do use her writings like Desire of Ages, Christ's Object Lessons and Steps to Christ as devotional reading to gain a deeper understanding of the gospels.
In fact I would recommend reading Steps to Christ over and over periodically and for sharing, I keep a copy in my bag when traveling to read if I have to wait somewhere.
I am writing this comment quite late in the day. It was unintentional, but Carmel had a series of routine medical tests that she has every couple of years and we got busy doing those (She is fine by the way - these are just that standard tests that people have when they are above a certain age to ensure that we don't fall to bits without knowing we are doing so!) I was quite surprised, given the importance Seventh-day Adventists attach to Ellen White, that so few have chosen to comment so far. (I am writing this is the evening.)
The place of Ellen White's writings is a bit of an enigma for us because while we profess Sola Scriptura, hardly any discussion proceeds without references to what Ellen White had to say on the topic. And because she wrote so extensively. there is always a relevant quote or three. I suspect that if we were to do an analysis of the Sabbath School lesson study guides over the years we would find the Ellen White percentage of the lesson content would be quite high.
Just reflecting a little bit on the Written Torah and the Oral Torah in New Testament times: is is possible that the Jews lost sight of the written Torah in the illumination of the Oral Torah?
Let me illustrate with a bit of an analogy. I sometimes go spotlighting at night looking for night-birds. I wear a strap-on headlamp which always points in the direction that I am looking. It is very good for finding birds at night. However I have to remember that when I am talking to other people who are with me I have to turn off the light otherwise it shines directly in their eyes and spoils their night-vision, or worse. The illumination is useful when used for the purpose that it was intended, but when we start looking at one another with that illumination, then we run into trouble.
I think that was the problem the Jews had with the Oral Torah. They started judging one another by the Oral Torah rather than using it as an illumination of the Written Torah. They were using the Oral Torah for something other than the original intention.
And is it quite possible that we today are using Ellen Whites writings for the wrong purpose; to judge and control one another, to run a stopper on an argument we want to win, rather than as an illumination on scripture.
I haven't experienced where Ellen White's writings have been used for the wrong purpose. I've been in the Adventist church for... well, let's say a long time (lol). Every time I've heard pastors reference her writings, it's AFTER they've preached on their topic founded in Bible text. Then for more illumination on their point, they share what Sister White wrote. Her writings have always been an eye opener for me. For example, instead of simply reading the Bible text, her writings sometimes will explain motivations behind the actions of Bible figures that I'm reading about. It's really helpful to get an understanding of why someone in the Bible said something or did something, especially if it was based in customs back then and their meaning was lost through the centuries.
You've been very fortunate to have that experience when the leaders or Paster sets the scriptural foundation and then afford the spirit of prophecy to add gravy as it were to the meal already plated. Not very many in our communions have been as blessed. There are very many places where our congregations resemble Ezekiel chapter 8 on so many levels.
I cannot see by what standard the Oral Torah can be compared to Ellen White's writings. The Oral Torah were not written by prophets or claimed inspiration in their writings. So what am I missing?
My reading of Jewish history suggests otherwise. Their perception of the oral Torah was that it originated with Moses and was passed down orally in parallel with the Written Torah. The Oral Torah was in a sense more available to the common people than the Written Torah in OT times. There were very few Written Torahs and they were objects of veneration, rather than books available for general study. Any Jewish history of the Mishna, Gemara and Talmud will give a sense of the importance of the Oral Torah and its relationship to the Written Torah.
Is the cultural/sub-cultural context being considered of a society where oral (rather than written) language was the primary/predominant form of knowledge/experience transmission?
Would not inspiration of oral language in an oral-language based culture be equivalent to inspiration of written language in a written-language based culture? There is a world of difference between how these two ways of culture operate and 'exist'.
Even ancient Hebrew writing appears to be an oral-based written language where letter characters are pictographic.
Just an observation. The weight given to the writings of EGW is the single most divisive element in our church today and has split our church into at least four parts.
1. She is not a prophet and should not be quoted
2. She is a prophet equal to Jeremiah, etc. and could be seen as the Bible for our time.
3. She is a gifted writer and may be used as any other author may be used for inspiration and general commentary
4. She is a prophet but only when under inspiration.
Many have left our fellowship. Some quietly and some not so quietly. Some have gone to the mountains to live. A surge of ‘outposts’ dot our country where people of like minds live together. The attitudes of the members toward those who fall in various categories of Ellen White believers may judge the others in various ways, including pity or censure.
I believe in 3. as you have described. Ellen Harmon White was a significant and gifted female writer in her time, and her writings bear unmistakable evidence of a refined mind and spiritual clarity. I read and use her to guide and challenge my thinking on many topics, but I also challenge her views on many things. We all learn from the give and take with important writers.
Hi Maurice,
Thank you for sharing that amazing illustration, it is a perfect analogy. I have experienced that from others in the church and have done it myself in the past. I have learned by God's grace not to judge others or even myself in that way anymore. I leave the judgement in God's hands where it belongs. Thanks for always shedding light on the topic. Tammy
I went thru all the comments and it's nothing new when speaking about E.G.White... But I've to agree with you my brother. I too have been guilty of using her writing as a defense mechanism. However, God is still working on me. I've seen it ever so often that many brethren has used it to beat down others and even resulted in driving them from the congregation. I'm not aware I've done so but I pray God's forgiveness. I came to the recognition that if I'm getting angry or anyone for that matter that because brethren are not following or doing what is written in her writings then I'm not showing Christ-like attitude. Christ never force and I believe the genuine, sincere seeker of truth will come to it as I/they rely entirely on God.
I also realized that we have to approach her writing prayerfully. There's so much I could say but I'm just thankful for the word of God and I'm truly blessed by your fellowship and this website.
God bless!
Seems I am rather late to this party, but I do have a comment on this topic, but actually it is not MY comment, but from Ellen herself: "Do not quote Sister White".
WHAT?! Yes...that is what she wrote concerning the use of her writings to establish or settle matters of truth. She went on to say that all public teaching was to come from "the bible only", and that her writings as a "messenger of the Lord"(not a prophet, which she always denied being) were for the individual reader to benefit from, and not for public teaching, scolding...etc. Not everyone in a given audience believes in this gift of the Spirit, but all agree in the inspiration of scripture. She always pointed to the scriptures as the "greater light", which her "lesser light" writings would lead the reader to.
I must add that our publications, including the SS lesson guide, are all for public outreach, and should keep to the scriptures as their Source of Truth. I have heard too many public presentations where Ellen was quoted far more than the Bible, and in printed articles as well.
I have been reading from Ellen daily since 1982 when I rediscovered this source of encouragement from the Lord for the Remnant people, yet, now I only share publicly from Scripture since learning of Ellen's urging the brethren to "do not quote Sister White" in public outreach. I do make exceptions in private conversations where Ellen is mutually recognized as an inspired source, but even then, not to establish Truth.
Over the years as a SS member I have struggled with teachers, as soon as a passage of scripture is difficult. We cease to look further in the bible, we go straight to let us see what Sister White says and the discussion ends there. As much as I read her writings we need to get back and study the scriptures.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and the loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:11
Just using this parallel-Elijah while trying to escape thought he was the only person who held up the belief of worshiping the true God. The Lord said, he had 7000 who still believe in him.
1 Kings 19:18
Scripture and EG White writing. Are her writings important? Yes/No. I followed the Pew studies sometimes about which group of people lives the longest. Adventist was on the list for years, the last one I saw, we were off the list. Why/why not? for the same reason, or more. Many stop believing in her writings.
I, from the beginning always mentioned coming from a poverty stricken home. Many times people believe being poor signals poor health. E.g she told us what we must eat/not eat, but many take her reading/writings to beat other people in their heads.
She says we must not use caffeine for a reason, the word caffeine was not mentioned in the bible, but the bible says total abstinence of that which is bad. Why no caffeine? Simple, It damages the heart sending the heart into an abnormal flutter. Decaf is also bad and all the products containing a lot or little caffeine. I tried my best to read and understand her books and place them into the context she intended them to be used. She mentioned about living healthy in this world, body and soul. At my age, although I did not have all the luxuries of childhood (health wise) do not have any medical condition that I knew about. I follow the bible and her writings. I choose to be healthy. Many diseases are life styles ones that I tried by God help to avoid. The Holy Spirit also points me to her books- once I was told to avoid/cut down one sweets to prevent my arthritis pain. I did, now my pain is gone.
Lyn Ellen White does not mention caffeine. She mentions tea and coffee which can be applied to principles about other drinks. The word "caffeine" is found once in her writings in the book Temperance. However it is supplied by the people making the compilation book.
Ellen White's writings are indeed a lesser light of a greater light which is the Bible.I want to believe that both revelation and inspiration are progressive.God in His infinite wisdom knows when,how and whom to give light in every generation, He doesn't want us to stagnate spiritually and wants us to advance our spiritual development in line with doctrines, this is why we have today the 28th fundamental belief and, still believe more truth are yet to come as per God's timetable.The problem comes when somebody within the Adventist circle writes a book with a new light different from the 28 fundamental beliefs and is subjected to criticism and given all manner of negative adjectives even before a keen study of his book is conducted to see whether he's in line with the Bible. Are we only taught to believe the Ellen White's writings as the only testimonies to the church? How do we relate to other literature of other faiths? Is ours the best option? Do we accept the fact that the literature of the other faiths can shape our understanding of the Bible?
Which of her writings do I use the most?
In addition to ones mentioned in my previous post, I find the Conflict of the Ages series, the most enlightening. In some of them she records things she learned from her visions which are not spelled out in the Bible like the chapters, "Why was sin permitted" and 'Origin of Evil' give insight about Lucifer.
Maybe others would like to share how they have benefitted from her writings?
what to do with Ellen G. White?
If this was the question it would have been easier for me to answer. It should be treated as anyone who is writing in this blog.
When we ask the question on Ellen G White’s writings the question is followed by who also was inspired by God and served as God’s messenger to His remnant people
The question do we accept her as inspired writer.
If she is like Charles Spurgeon, John Wesely and Ravi Zacharias then we don’t have to give credence to her writing. Her writing reveals the will of God to those of us living at the end of the world. Her health ministry has been proven independently why Adventist have longevity of life. Does she not support the writing of Exodus 15:26
Served revealing the will of God unto us.
Every prophet served as a mouth piece for God. Had she spoken and written her opinion absolutely we have a right to reject and not use her writing. She wrote against cigarette smoking when the army was giving them out as a stress reliver.
Does she have a biblical basis for her writing?
The bible says, the last day church will have the Spirit of Prophecy. I do believe she was given to our church to make a distinction of all the last day churches.
Here are the problems
When my uncle shared his baptismal vow one of the fundamental beliefs into Adventist faith was that you had to accept Ellen White as a prophet. This turned many away from the church because no one wanted to be identified as belonging to a cult organization.
Also, when you are a babe in Christ, you are beginning to walk with the Lord to understand the biblical writings. To add to that understanding when you have made Ellen White as a requirement for joining the fellowship into Christ family, you have gone contradictory to the writing of Ellen White herself.
Thank God we don’t hold that position or basis for joining the church.
Our kids learning from Adventist school are ill equipped to handle a biblical conversation with non-believers. When they talk about somethings, they have learned from our Adventist school as biblical truth and come to realize it’s not even in the bible their basis of truth is shattered. Then they begin to question everything taught by the church on the basis of the bible.
“You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God’s word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourself with God’s inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies”. — Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, p. 605
I can testify that when you make God’s word your priority the revelation, you receive is in harmony with the inspired writings of Ellen G white and the bible because her writings are in harmony with the scriptures.
Her writings are to point us to the bible and through the bible find Christ.
True prophet will only glorify the Word of God not find glory in themselves.
What she wrote in simple terms we made it more complicated.
The basis of acceptance should always be on Christ and Christ alone. All Biblical truth will be made crystal clear at His second coming.
Hi Newbeginn, As a Bible Worker in the United States I teach people from the Bible what the Spirit of Prophecy is and how to tell from the Bible if someone is inspired or not. I baptize those who believe in the gift of prophecy, but since one must test all of Ellen White's writings with the Bible to see if she was inspired or not I cannot wait until they read everything she wrote to make that decision before being baptized. I teach people the principles found in the Bible for determining if someone is inspired. I introduce them to Ellen White. If their minds are opened to the principles found in the Bible about the gift of prophecy I baptize them. But I cannot nor should I have them make a vow to accept Ellen White specifically as having the gift or prophecy before baptism. The portion of the baptism vows that I read regarding the gift of prophecy reads, "Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?" It does not mention Ellen White by name nor should it. As I said earlier people can't be expected to read and examine all of her writings before being baptized. Nor should they be.
THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY - ELLEN G. WHITE
1874 [14] Do you recognize that the remnant church has the Spirit of Prophecy, and that this has been manifested
to this church through the writings of Ellen G. White? Rev. 12:17; 19:10.
1932/4 [18] Do you believe the Bible doctrine of "spiritual gifts" in the church, and do you believe in the gift of
the Spirit of prophecy which has been manifested in the remnant church through the ministry and
writings of Mrs. E. G. White ?
2000 [8] Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the
identifying marks of the remnant church?
http://www.issues-of-life.com/Baptismal%20Vows.pdf
As I have grew more than 20years studying, I had learn to fall in love withher writings.
Thank you Newbegin, Again I have great appreciation for Ellen White and appreciate her prophetic gift to the church. Baptism vows have always varied from place to place and time to time. For example in different Adventist churches I have worked in over the years there have been vows for adults and for kids and even for Pathfinders. To expect a baptism candidate to claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have personally researched all the writings of Ellen White on their own in order to claim they believe for themselves that she is a prophet before being baptism would show a lack of integrity. It would be a lack of integrity because most people who have made that profession have done so by presumption instead of absolute concrete knowledge on their part. I have loved Ellen White ever since I was a small child, but when I was baptized at age 7 I had no way of knowing if she was a prophet or not. Was a too young to be baptized? Absolutely not. I have been in love with Jesus and have always been active in the church ever since my baptism as a young child. I knew what I was doing. Through the years I have appreciated Ellen White's writings more and more and personally believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is a prophet and a messenger from God. However, to expect me to claim that I knew EGW was a prophet when I was baptized would not have been practical and would have been a great lack of integrity on the pastor's part to have me make that profession before being baptized. You mention studying and loving her writings more than 20 years now. It would not be practical to make someone wait twenty years to be baptized so they would be sure they believed and loved the writings of Ellen White.
Is it be possible that, as some Jews in Jesus' time gave more value to the Torah than the essence of it, we face the same regarding EG White writings in our church? As she herself said, a "lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light”... the most important foundation is on the Bible, but perhaps because of her more contemporary language and direct counsels to people we can feel closer to her writings. The relationship of her writings to the biblical stories is rather amazing. But as in all, we need to find the balance not to put too much strenght on the persona, but on the message. And there is quite a taboo of ideas in our midst about her name. I don't think there is anything wrong with the message she was used as an instrument to deliver us, on the opposite, the message is fantastic, but sometimes, some might tend to focus much more on peaky things, replicate that a bunch of times, and forget the larger picture which involve all of her writings, the love of God with a name JESUS!
The lesson claims that Ellen White's writings are not on par with the level of inspiration with the Bible. Where in the Bible does it teach "degrees of inspiration"? Was John more inspired than Luke?
And when we take the statements of the prophet herself as being the lesser light, no prophet ever claims high ranking for himself. When John the Baptist was asked if he were Elijah that was to come, he said no. Jesus was the One who identified John as Elijah.
Also on the matter of using the Bible to judge Ellen White , Jesus used the same principle when he told his critics that if they had believed Moses they would believe him. So was Moses more inspired than Jesus?
Lesson: "They share the same kind of inspiration as the biblical writers had, but they have a different function than does the Bible."
What does this statement mean? If they share the same "kind" of inspiration then they must have the same value. You are either a true prophet or not and if you are God speaks through you PERIOD.
Ray you bring up some very good points. In Acts 17:11 the people searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was so, because in his day he was the lesser light pointing to the greater light of the Old Testament. Today Ellen White is the lesser light pointing towards the great light of the Old and New Testaments. The already established and tested light is always the greater light by which the lesser lights of their day are tested. However please keep in mind that in order to know if someone is a prophet we must compare what they say with Scripture. It has to be 100% accurate with Scripture. The only way to make that call is to read 100% of her writings and compare them with Scripture. Can we expect everyone to undergo such an investigation on their own? No. That is a decision people must make on their own. So I can't expect everyone to have the same opportunity to read and her appreciate her writings on the exact same level I do. Also I have to remember some of her writing is directly to the church. In other words I think of Isaiah 58:1 where it says show my people their sins and the house of Jacob their sins. We can't beat the world over the head with the same counsel that is given to the church. The world must know that yes they need a Savior but a prophet addresses those who are convicted of truth differently than those who are not. Too many times in the past people have used Ellen White to show people with no conviction specific and minute things they should be doing that they may not be ready for yet. I spend a huge bulk of my time reading the Bible, but of course I read and appreciate Ellen White greatly. However since her writings are so vast I must realize what I read in her writings I must apply to myself personally instead of applying to everyone else. There is a reason why I am reading what she writes about sports and recreation today and my brother is reading what she is writing about diet today. Because my brother and I are not in the exact same place in our walk and are being convicted in different areas right now. To me, and I could be wrong, but it seems to me the biggest problem with the way the church has used Ellen White's precious and inspired writings in the past is to apply them to others instead of applying them to themselves personally.
Hi William -
I joined the Adventist Church as a Christian. Even though I had been baptized before, the insistence was that I should be baptized again.
All I wanted was to worship the Creator on Sabbath in the fellowship of other believers. So, baptized again I was; other helpful information came later.
'The Great Controversy' from Ellen White I read early on. It explained the struggle between 'good and evil' in a nut-shell. I agreed with it, and this prompted me to read more from her writings.
Yes, she is wonderfully inspired by God's Holy Spirit - as all of us are. Some more, some less expressive with words. All of us walk by faith and need to be illuminated by His Light.
So, the focus is always on God's Holy Light.
God's warning - Luke 17:1,2 - is about not to hinder/offend the 'little ones' that want to come to Him; that it would be better for him that does that to have a millstone hanged about his neck and cast into the sea ....
Luke 3:22 - ...and a voice came from heaven, which said, though art my beloved son;...
Luke 3:16 - ...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
John 6:37 - all that the FATHER giveth me shall come to me ...
Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
John 3:5-7 - v.5: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?
Do these scripture verses direct us the Ellen White or to agree with the Adventist articles of faith before baptism?
By baptism we declare that we want to be a believer in Christ, not a believer in the Adventist's articles of faith, through they are applicable to our faith as illuminated by the Light of the scriptures.
Coll.2:12,13 - buried with him in baptism, WHEREIN also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Rom.6:1-14 - explains this marvelous transformation.
Do we really want to add anything else to the miracle of faith, and to this trans-formative power of baptism?
It is the outward sign of our decision to accept the spiritual rebirth, gifted to us through the Faith of Christ!
We praise God for that!
All of us are well advised to eliminate placing stumbling blocks in the new believer's path that would interfere with the building and working out his/her spiritual relationship with the Heavenly Father.
I hope we all agree that EG White writings are misquoted to support once personal openions.Whenvever one tells you she says this or that make sure you read it yourself to get the entire context.
From my childhood years in church, I was taught that the writings of Ellen G. White, the result of Holy Ghost inspiration, were meant to help clarify and highlight Biblical truth – meat in due season Psalm 145:15.
For the scientist proof, persuasion, as well as conviction grows today upon the rising realization of the following:
* The prophet could not have otherwise known the truths presented or predictions made in his/ time. Yet she, in this case, was mandated to share it.
* Bible-based truths are proven and predictions are realized, on time.
* White, too, believed in Sola Scriptura.
Most notedly, the Bible presents God as Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer, Saviour and returning King of Kings! Scriptural Seventh-day Adventists are able to prove this from the Bible.
For all true believers, “Salvation through Christ, The Word” remains the eternal theme. 2Timothy 3:15, 16
Ellen once wrote(paraphrased) that if God's people had followed the teachings of the Bible faithfully, "not one testimony" would have been written. Solemn thought isn't it?
Look at any of the OT prophets, and what do you conclude concerning the existence of Ellen's writings? God's people had wandered astray yet again. What was given to Moses was sufficient, and all the prophets consistently point back to the Torah, and the covenant within. This is the covenant with Adam and Eve, and all the faithful until Moses, when it was written down, and embellished due to the ongoing unbelief. Beginning with Abraham and circumcision, to the wilderness wanderings and the blue border, the red heifer, and many other ceremonies added to teach the vital truth of a Redeemer for sinners, and our great need of Him as individuals.
So where does Ellen fit in with all of this? God's people are scattered and torn, and for (how many???) generations since Jesus entered into His final work as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary(however you wish to envision it), which could have been finished in 1 generation, yet we are still here "waiting"....for what? The Bible has every answer needed to get us from here to there ("unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"), but we have our part to "work out"(Phil 2:12) by faith since God will force no one, so let's each understand exactly Who is waiting for who.
As for Ellen vs "sola scriptura", her writings fit in a perfect dovetail if tested via sola scriptura. Every prophet of the OT needed to meet the test as well before becoming part of the canon of scripture which we have today. I've yet to find Ellen falling short even once after many years of continuous reading. Yet, when presenting truth to others, "only the Bible" is the instructions she has passed on to us(I believe her writings have been too prominent in our study guides to the result that those of other persuasions will not even read them because of this). Today, we NEED the testimonies, and until you read them for yourself, you can't imagine how badly we need them. The result will be more time in the scriptures and on our knees.
Sola scriptura includes all that is in harmony with it for establishing our beliefs and Path through life.
As humans anything we place into our bodies changes the natural chemicals in our bodies either for good or bad. Lev 11:1-47 The Lord gave Moses laws about clean and unclean meats which should be eaten. 1 Cor 3:16-18; 6:15-20 told us our bodies are the temple of God. How do people care for the Lord's temple?
When I am studying certain topics in the bible, I used the bible, Mrs White books and other books depending on the topics I am reading/studing. 3 John 1:2. The Lord desired that we both prosper and be in health. Health can be of either mind/mental, soul/social and emotional, body/physical or spirit/spiritual.
2 Cor 10:31 says whether therefore we eat or drink,.....do all to the glory of God. The only thing mentioned about drinks/drinking in the bible is the use of unformented wine and forbidden wine. The bible did not go beyond that. The use of tea, coffee, coco cola etc are not shown in the bible. But is there anything wrong with drinking those? yes/no?
I then saw in Mrs White books that we should not drink those, but why? As mentioned before everything we place in our bodies changes the natural chemicals in our bodies for good or bad. The active chemical in tea and coffee, cocoa, milo, ovaltine, chocolate is caffeine. Caffeine is dangerous to our bodies because it is a stimulant. It acts on almost all of the body systems. Cont used can damage the heart, stomach, brain, etc. Decaf is as bad, some products might have less caffeine than some.
Some people might say we dont need Mrs White books, the bible is enough evidence for everything. But dont we go to the doctor for medication and check-up? How do we know to be very careful what and how much we eat. Does the bible tells us anything about salt/sugar intake? How do we know how to manage our money? How to live this life in general. Do we go to the bible all the time when we go shopping as a guide, when we go to do legal matters? Go on holidays? etc. Does the bible tells us how specific to spend our money? In her books she laid out specific ways we can or should not spend money. She encouraged us to have 6 mths saying for emergencies-like in these Covid-19 times. Have we listened to her, if yes, we are good, if no, then what if I can convince others to go back to her books for financial planning?
Do you know the difference between caffeine and theobromine, cocoa has very little caffeine but a lot of theobromine.
So while theobromine can act as a heart stimulant and smooth muscle relaxant, caffeine has access to the neurons of the central nervous system and can consequently enhance physical performance and increase alertness.
google for more information.
For those who may be interested...below is a link to a 2015 pharmacology journal article that overviews and explains theobromine and it’s benefits in comparison with caffeine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4335269/
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord ...........As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
Thanks Phil for the imput. As an alternative to cigarette smoke many have turned to nicotine patches, nicotine gums, vamping, tobacco used, e-cigarettes etc but is there a difference in these? The all have nicotine. Sometimes people are given a prescription pill Fioricet to reduce the headache caused by the withdrawals of caffeine. This pill contains acetaminophen, barbiturates and caffeine. People used something, they withdraw, then given the same thing again, what a cycle? As a research student I understood some articles have their own bias, some have not tested a large enough group, some are literature review, etc. I met medical staff who still smokes or says alcoholic beverages is good for people.
Our bodies are God's temple. Dear Jesus help me to care for my body as your temple.
Lev 10:1-2. shows two men(priest) placed strange fire in the temple that was not allowed and both died. The temple in the bible is compared to our bodies. Do we put strange things in our bodies? Are we destroying our bodies like the children of Israel in the wilderness?
Yes Shirley, I read on theobromine. I also read that little sins and big sins are the same sins. So whether people use a little coffee/decaf or plenty, little theobromine or plenty those substance can still destroy our bodies one way or the other.
I once had a conversation with a urologist and he was saying about the recurrence of kidney stones in the same people who he did surgery previously on. He was discussing the use of Ice tea/hot tea. I asked him about herbal tea, (approx 30 different types) he told me they are as bad because of the oxalate stones that forms.
Lyn, are you saying that drinking caffeine is a sin?
It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fail not.They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lam 3:22-23.
Shirley, I grew up in 'old school'. My parents were not Christians, much less SDA. My mother attended a Sunday church, but go with the flow. They drank coffee. At that time my father told me/the children coffee drinking was not good for us because it makes our 'head hard'. As I grew older and joined the church I started hearing about the danger of coffee drink, so I did my own research.
Is coffee drinking a sin? But what is sin? Sin is any acts that go against the "will of God". But what is the will of God for humans? There are several texts in the bible that tells us about God's will for humans. Mark 14:35-36; 1 Cor 3:16-17. This text tells us we aught not to destroy God's temple, our body. If we do, God stated he will destroy us. The question is; if I drink coffee would any systems/organs/etc in my body be destroy and as a result I will need/have to use something else to correct the damage or fix the damage? Would my health be in danger? 3 John 1:2 John stated Beloved, his desire is for us to be prosperous and in health. Does coffee drinking destroy our health?
Some side effects from the caffeine in coffee.
Brain-Headache, anxiety, addition, lack of sleep.
Bowels-constipation
Stomach-acid reflux.
Muscles- breakdown in muscle structure/function.
Heart- increase blood pressure and heart rate.
After drinking or using caffeine/decaf in any product and those things happened to our bodies. Are we destroying the temple of God?
You will have to give me a lot me than "lesser light to greater light." You must show me that light!
Among the 28 fundamental teachings of the SDA church, (less than that at the time of Mrs. White) only one is unique to SDA. Meaning that all 27 doctrines where known and being taught by other denominations.
The only SDA contribution to the doctrines of Modern Christendom is that of the sanctuary, which was established before Mrs White became a SDA. The other 27 doctrines (less than that during the time of Mrs White) was widely known and taught by both Catholic and Protestant denominations alike.
Trinitarian doctrine, Sabbath, dietary laws, Tithing, Baptism, and all 27 fundamental teachings were known and being taught by different denominations.
I will admit, that it is possible that no other denomination had limited or rather selected these 28 as fundamental, and that most had some error in doctrine. ( thus I admit that there are no errors in the 28 doctrines) But these were not new to Christians in 1844 by no means.there was already light on these doctrines as being sola scriptura.
So then tell me what doctrine(s), what light did Mrs White shed that was a lesser light to the greater light?
What doctrine was omitted from the bible by Christendom that she shed light on?
My understanding of Mrs White role in establishing these doctrines was not that she was inspired initial of the truth of these doctrines, but only after these doctrines were selected by committee did she affirm that they were correct.
I think "lesser light to greater light" is diminishing the role of the Holy Spirit and the prophet. Not being canonized is no second banana position!
My final thoughts on Sola Scriptura.
There are several protestant churches that hold to the belief that since the cannon has been complete that miracles, prophecies, and tongues have ceased.
From these denominations i do expect a strict "bible only" belief. After all they do indeed believe that God has finished speaking, and that his final words are all in the cannon.
My option is that SDA has adopted yet another bad protestant saying (along with merry christmas and happy easter).
Our belief should be "the word of God only" not " bible only." whether the word is in the cannon, or comes to us by a new prophet.
Surely we are not a bible only church. There are many things spoken by EGW that we believe and cannot find any of them in the greater light.
Take the pacifier out.
Rather than me jumping to a conclusion as to what you mean by the statement “take the pacifier out”, would you mind elaborating on what you intended by that statement and how it relates to the point/s you were raising.
Thanks...
we are not babies to be pacified with "lesser light to greater light"
Any reasonable adult can see that we are not a bible only church. We are a "word of God only" church, whether that word has been canonized or not, whether it came from prophet of old or new.
The word of God is not limited to scripture,
and EGW says many many things not found in scripture and we believe her:
The Desire of Ages, p. 37.2 (Ellen Gould White)
"With intense interest the unfallen worlds had watched to see Jehovah arise, and sweep away the inhabitants of the earth."
Unfallen worlds. Really? Where is that in the greater light?
Christian Experience and Teachings of Ellen G. White, p. 63.2 (Ellen Gould White)
.. "And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never-fading flowers."
Wings? realy? did Adam and Eve have wings?
The Desire of Ages, p. 293.2 (Ellen Gould White)
"While Jesus was preparing the disciples for their ordination, one who had not been summoned urged his presence among them. It was Judas Iscariot, a man who professed to be a follower of Christ. He now came ..."
Did not Jesus choose Judas? Did Judas come on his own? forced his way in?
...Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon:John 6:70
If you believe any of these things then you do not believe bible only for none of these are in the bible
Implied are the possible fallen worlds mentioned in the councils of heaven found in Job. Sons of God assembled and Satan addressing is world. That is a possible "unfallen world" mention in the Scripture.
Wings on little ones may simply be a way of describing the ability to float upwards. But you are right in that nothing about wings for saints are found.
EGW gave a deeper impression behind the selection of Judas. She did say that at the urging of the other disciples that found in Judas a lot to admire Jesus takes him in. When examining the life of the disciples with Jesus that isn't completely out of the ballpark, but, again, not spelled out.
We could add a few others: National Sunday Laws, Satan impersonation of Jesus' second coming. Not explicitly found.
We do receive inspiration where ever it is found: Scripture or through others as they manifest what the Scripture teaches.
Francis, have you read where Jesus states that in the resurrection, the redeemed will be "as the angels"?
As for unfallen worlds, the Bible speaks of other worlds in several passages, and no mention that any others have fallen, and in fact, Revelation 12 makes this clear doesn't it? The devil has been "cast out" into the earth. In the book of Job, Satan boasted about walking freely on the earth, meaning it was under his influence, but only the earth. All the "sons of God" assembled there in God's presence were not sinners, or they would not have been there.
Does the information concerning Judas contradict anything in scripture? If Ellen was a messenger from God, would God not share other information beyond what is written, though never in opposition of it? It is incidental information, and it changes nothing else. Jesus "chose" Judas by not refusing him as a disciple, but where in the Bible do you find Jesus specifically calling Judas to "follow me" as He is shown to have done with others? Nathaniel was also brought by Philip, and not specifically called by Jesus himself.
If a messenger only tells you what you already know for certain, why send the messenger?
I greatly appreciate the gifts manifested by Ellen Harmon White in her life and ww writings. She and the early Adventists struggled for decades to give them space while clinging to Scripture as the standard of Christian teaching and practice.
However, all that changed in the 20th century. Today SDAs only give lip service to the idea of "sola scriptura". Ellen White's writings are given final authority and veto power over all independent interpretations in our official and unofficial life.
It is time we acknowledged this, and stop giving the world the impression that we believe in Sola Scriptura (as defined in the SS lesson).
What a blessing we have with all of EGW writings. I go back to her calling. She was called by God to write for the benifit of us as a chosen people to help us fulfill our mission with encouragement, warnings, promises, enlightment, better understanding, criteria to live by to inhance our walk with God, better understanding of Gods character(Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing is just one example with the theme of Gods love for us).
We are in the wilderness getting ready to cross the river Jordan. Her writings are manna from heaven. We eat it with relish, I can't imagine eating anything else(snakes, lizards, tarantulas, occasional rodant, cactus) ick, ick, and ick.
Gods Word, the Bible is also manna from heaven it is not to be superceded by The Spirit of Prophecy. The Spirit of Prophecy is to augment, and be synergistic to the Bible, God speaks through His prophets, and there is no doubt in my mind EGW is one of Gods prophets.
In reading the comments and recalling stories of many yesterdays, I was struck with a thought.
We ARE Sola Scriptura in the formation of our Doctrines. However, Doctrines are NOT all that there is.
From the EGW Estate website:
“Seventh-day Adventists believe that Mrs. White was more than a gifted writer; they believe she was appointed by God as a special messenger to draw the world's attention to the Holy Scriptures and help prepare people for Christ's second advent.”
I think that this is a fair characterization of what we believe. It is unfortunate that after her death, many in the church in the early/mid 20th century, elevated her writings and published letters and articles into compilations that served their own purposes. This is in my opinion, is what has been the cause of our internal disagreement on her status. She would not likely have been pleased about how some of those compilations turned out.
If one sticks to the books she wrote herself, there is no doubt they were inspired by God to shine a light on the Bible itself. The fact pointed out from the website below is quite remarkable and would suggest she was indeed inspired by God.
“She is the most translated woman writer in the entire history of literature, and the most translated American author of either gender.”
Here is a statement made by EGW that has guided me since my college days in the early 1980's.
"But do not quote Sister White till you stand on vantage ground, where you know what you are doing. Take the word of God. It is full of meat and drink. Study the Bible, and you will know more of God than you do now. You will have something fresh to impart to others. You will not go over the same ground again and again. You will realize that there is a world to save. I ask you to put on the whole armor, and be sure that your feet are shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace."—Manuscript 43, 1901, 12-19. (Talk in Battle Creek College Library, April 1, 1901.)
It is so true that there is much meat in the Word of God for which many don't see because they spend too much time in Sister White's writings, and making them the basis of faith. Reading the Word most of the time gives proper perspective to her writings as they relate to us and us to it.
The testimony of Jesus is his living witness of God's true character. It is expressed in the body of Christ on this earth to counteract the deception and lies that the Serpent has spread about God's intentions for his creation. Those who claim the name of Christ and who have the same testimony as Jesus also witness of God's true character. The testimony of those who think like Jesus, speak like Jesus and act like Jesus is spirit of prophesy. It is the hallmark of the body of Christ, and it is the calling of every Christian who is part of that body.
The testimony of Jesus is this: God is love. And that is the essence (spirit) of prophecy and all other spiritual gifts. (1 Corinthians 13.) There are times of special need in the life of the church when God invests signal grace in particular individuals to speak and act for him (2 Peter 1:19-21). The church calls these persons “prophets.” But anyone who heeds the Spirit’s call to speak and act for God by loving those who need his love exercises the prophetic gift. (Isaiah 61: 1-3.) If all a church can do is point to a prophet of the past, while the spiritual gift is absent from church of the present, their claim of possessing “the spirit of prophecy” is moot.
Those who have the testimony of Jesus do not worship the words of the testimony or its works or its messengers (note Revelation 19:10). They worship the One who is the source of that testimony. As Jesus testified, “If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.” (John 12:32.) That is the spirit of prophecy because it is the testimony of Jesus.
We as Adventist, because we do take Scripture seriously, tend to peg meaning of a passage in a limited sort of way. Let me explain.
SDA's defend their belief that they are the "remnant" through connecting a couple of Scriptures together. The dragon is wroth with the woman and goes off to make are with the remnant of her seed, those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. Reading further along in Revelation we find a key that unlocks this testimony of Jesus: ah, it is the Spirit of Prophecy. We then say that the remnant will manifest in it a prophet, and we explain that EGW fits that bill. (We also tend to stick to the KJV version of various texts that give us our doctrines, another issue for another time).
Indeed, though, as you suggest, there is more meaning to the phrases "testimony of Jesus" and "spirit of prophecy" than simply we are a church that has a prophet. I like how you have expressed it. The testimony of Jesus is a belief in His life that translates into expression of His life in ours. Prophecy is telling forth the things already foretold, not that prophecy is always foretelling the future (in fact, most ministry of the prophets, including EGW, was a ministry of edification and teaching, not predicting). Sharing about Jesus, His teachings, His life, what He has done for each of us. That is the essence of the Spirit's purpose for which we testify for and of.
From Ellen G. White’s own words found in her book Testimonies for the Church:
Her writings are never a shortcut to or replacement for any serious Bible study. In fact, she comments: “You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God’s word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourself with God’s inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies”. — Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, p. 605.
We would not need her if we study our Bibles diligently! However, I thank God that He inspired her writings.
I remember a time in my SDA journey, 30 plus or minus years ago, that another SDA was going on and on about EGW's place as being "The Testimony of Jesus and also The Spirit of Prophecy" as per Revelation 19:10. I told this person that EGW herself said that her ministry and writings were a lesser light pointing to The Greater Light, and this person just brushed me off and said that EGW was just "being modest," and that her ministry and writings were "equal or even greater than scripture." Now this person along with her husband have a very important high position on one of our SDA Churches.
When we speak of EGW’s ministry regarding how we should relate to it and Scripture, I think it does well to reacquaint ourselves with the history and purpose of her being called. She was a tender age of 17 and part of the small and now beleaguered disappointed of the Millerite movement. The passing of time without the return of Jesus led to their being greatly ridiculed and scolded for their errant belief of every having the audacity to know when Jesus would come. Many of these ardent Millerites had sold lands, businesses, left fields unharvested knowing that Jesus was coming on October 22, 1844. It is hard for us to conceive the sense of loss they had when October 22 came and went, and they were still on earth.
Furthermore, this deeply disappointed group were now in disarray among themselves splitting up over many things, some going off into fanaticism of various sorts. Some even continuing to predict the date of Jesus’ return. Others went back to their home churches they had left or had been disfellowshipped from due to their adherence to Miller’s message. Still others never returned to organized religion or a belief in God at all.
It is in this condition of things that EGW is called, and her first message was encouragement to the saints to keep trusting in Jesus. They were given messages that they were on the right path, but the fault did not lie in the Bible or God, but in the interpretation of the event that had led to the dating of Jesus return. This was not an easy work. On one hand she is seeking to get discouraged souls to take heart, again, and on the other hand she was defending against all manner of crazy views about Scripture and truth for the time.
Her ministry moved men and women to have hope and take up the work of figuring out what went wrong, and to gain perspective and reestablish belief through restudy of the Scriptures. Once they gained their footing in the belief that Jesus changed phases of ministry in heaven, not that He was coming to earth to cleanse it with fire, they slowly rallied around this view. By 1848 this small band of believers found themselves in several Sabbath conferences spanning the next two years in order to pound out God’s message for them for that time.
Ellen White’s ministry was not one of proclamation of a set of beliefs that the people simply embraced. Hers was a ministry of correction from error and encouragement to look to Scripture for the reasons for their faith and for their purpose. Ellen White did not lay out a systematic bible study upon revelation from God for the people to trust. Ellen White ministered in a way that nudged the studying and praying brethren along until they had settled upon eight basic beliefs that made them who they were (this is a decade before they took up a name). They accepted Ellen White as being called of God in a prophetic role. They embraced the seventh day Sabbath, the three angel’s message, the state of the dead as sleep, that the dead would be annihilated in the end, the literal soon return of Jesus, that the plagues would fall after the close of probation, and that Jesus had begun His work of final judgment before His return.
These core teachings governed this group’s purpose and identity, and as they learned more about Jesus’ will for them, they grew more in understanding of Bible revelation, all the while EGW providing a guiding hand. She did not deliver the truth intact from her own sense of what the bible said. The small company was coming to know and embrace and practice the truth as the Word of God instructed. She was more of a shepherd counseling, guiding, instructing, encouraging, and ever pointing men to keep seeking the knowledge of God’s will from His Word.
EGW did deliver messages from God in counsel to individuals and groups of individuals, guidance for the purchase of lands, for setting up schools, medical institutions, etc. She proved remarkably and profoundly accurate in her messages of these kinds, and people did look to her often for guidance on these things. Sometimes the saints sought answers to solve theological disputes. At times she had something to say, but often she had nothing to say. EGW was not a token piece to have every jot and tittle divined for answers. She did the work of a prophet, and a prophet never goes beyond God’s Word, or instructing in ways that lead away from Him.
The church is not in need for more Bible. That was settled millennia ago. EGW’s writings are not part of the cannon. But the early SDA Church did need special guidance for special circumstances and EGW was that vessel God used to bring about and mature a movement of truth to declare the Good News to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. If we can relate to her in that sense her ministry will continue to fill an appointed place among us. The Bible and the Spirit are still alive and in operation. To them we must rely. The SOP speaks to our doing just that. The SOP points us to the Light (the Bible, Jesus) that shines into a dark place until the day dawns and the Day Star arises in our hearts, leading us on into the perfect day.
"I was quite surprised, given the importance Seventh-day Adventists attach to Ellen White, that so few have chosen to comment so far. (I am writing this is the evening.)"
Maurice's stimulus package produced fruit.
I do believe that the most important issue in our life as a vapor here on earth, is found in the following prayer.
Jesus, keep me near the cross,
There a precious fountain—
Free to all, a healing stream—
Flows from Calv’ry’s mountain.
Chorus:
In the cross, in the cross,
Be my glory ever;
Till my raptured soul shall find
Rest beyond the river.
Near the cross, a trembling soul,
Love and Mercy found me;
There the bright and morning star
Sheds its beams around me.
Near the cross! O Lamb of God,
Bring its scenes before me;
Help me walk from day to day,
With its shadows o’er me.
Near the cross I’ll watch and wait
Hoping, trusting ever,
Till I reach the golden strand,
Just beyond the river.
Wounderful prayer by Fanny Crosby
The Bible, EGW writings, others writings, and sermons as long as they speak to the Word and to the Testomony of the Bible. Now I believe all three are a conduit to answering the above prayer. I enjoyed reading a lot of wounderful imput to the lesson for this day.
There is a purpose why God gave Spiritual gifts in the church it's for the edictification of the church. Thus also the prophetic gift to the remnant church is for the edictifiation of the church.
Just the very fact that a person accepts Jesus as his or her Savior is in itself a proclamation of "Prophecy." He or she is saying that they accept what God in Human FLesh did for him or her at Calvary 2,000 plus or minus yeas ago as a thing with power from the past and will continue to do so now for them in the present until He comes soon in the near future and in the clouds to take him or her with Him to inherit Paradise forever with Him too. This is in itself a witness of "The Testimony of Jesus," in that persons life!