Wednesday: Hope Before the Word Began
Who among us, having gone through what Job did, could utter such a powerful affirmation of hope? His words are an eternal testimony to the reality of his life of faith and obedience.
Job had hope, because he served a God of hope. Even amid all the sordid stories of human sinfulness, from the fall of Adam and Eve in Eden (Genesis 3) to the fall of Babylon at the end of time (Rev. 14:8), the Bible is a book brimming with hope, brimming with a vision of something beyond what this world itself offers.
“The world has been committed to Christ, and through Him has come every blessing from God to the fallen race. He was the Redeemer before as after His incarnation. As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour.” — Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p. 210. And who is the Savior other than the great Source of our hope?
How do these texts affirm the wonderful hope expressed in the Ellen G. White statement found in today’s study? Eph. 1:4; Titus 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:18–20.
These texts teach the amazing truth that, in His foreknowledge, God knew even before the Creation of the world that humanity would fall into sin. The Greek in
2 Timothy 1:9 says that we have been called by a grace given to us in Christ Jesus “before eternal time.” This is a grace given us, “not according to our works” (how could it have been “our works” if we didn’t even exist then?) but through Jesus. Even before we existed, God put a plan in place that offered humanity the hope of eternal life. The hope didn’t arise after we needed it; instead, it was already there, ready for us when we did need it.
As Christians, we have so much to hope for and to hope in. We exist in a universe created by a God who loves us (John 3:16), a God who redeemed us (Titus 2:14), a God who hears our prayers (Matt. 6:6), a God who intercedes for us (Heb. 7:25), a God who promises never to forsake us (Heb. 13:5), a God who promises to raise our bodies from death (Isa. 26:19), and to give us eternal life with Him (John 14:2-3).
| “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Rom. 8:31). How can you make this hope your own even amid whatever struggles you are facing now? |
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Just knowing that God had already put things in place just in case we sinned before He created us, this gives me hope that whatever struggles I may now be facing or will face in the future, He already has a plan to address the situation.
"Just knowing that God had already put things in place just in case we sinned"? I am at a loss here again."just in case we sinned"? He knew we would sin.He knew Satan would sin and we would be plunged in this world of darkness. My question is since he knew (and he alone knew) what was the purpose of this whole thing? He never had to prove anything to anyone or any other deity because he knew this from the moment he thought up the plan. I really do not see the point. Did he create us just to prove he loved us? (the point?)Could he not have removed the glitches before it came to this? Really confused. I do not intend to discourage anyone but I am just in search of truth. Thanks.
Happy Thanksgiving to All!!
"Take time to study the Bible, the Book of books. There never was a time when it was so important that the followers of Christ should study the Bible as now. Deceptive influences are upon all sides, and it is essential that you counsel with Jesus, your best friend. The wayfaring man may find the way of life through faith and obedience, through abiding in the sunshine of Christ's righteousness. But how shall we understand the Bible? In the Word of God duty is made plain, and everything relating to the religious life is presented in a definite way. The whole plan of salvation is delineated, and the helps to the soul are pointed out. The way in which the believer may be complete in Christ is unfolded." (Ellen G White, Daughters of God, cp.4, p.78).
I have a favorite song that I learned a child and I believe you did learn it too in Sabbath School. "Jesus loves me! this I know, for the Bible tells me so." Because the Bible makes it plain, we accept it in faith. I encourage us as adult to sing this song daily. The simplicity of this song helps me to have affirm faith in My Savior. How about you?
This is always a hard question Georgia. Here is an answer that helps me but I don't expect everyone to agree with it. God is bound by certain rules of logic. For example; "God can create a stone so big that he cannot lift it", is a logical contradiction.
Here are some other assertions about God:
A God who exists but does not create is a contradiction. It is simply pointless to have a creator God who does nothing.
If God creates intelligent life he must give that life free choice, otherwise that life is an automaton. He cannot logically step in and remove that choice just because intelligent life makes the "wrong" choice.
If you understand the logic of what I am saying, then God knew that when he created intelligent life, it could/would make the wrong choice and he provided a path for us to recover from our wrong choice. There is a lot that I still do not understand or explain, but one of the characteristics that God has also given to intelligent life is the joy of discovery. I am sure that I will enjoy discovering better explanations.
Of course that raises the awkward question: Does God enjoy discovery?
Hi Georgia,
Thanks for your openness on this matter.
Firstly, take note that God desires loving and intelligent worship from His creation. Love is not something that can be forced on anyone. God chose to give us (represented by our first parents, Adam and Eve) the power to choose whether we would be loyal to Him or not. In the garden of Eden that is the test that came to our first parents because God desires us to exercise freewill as free moral agents. God could have made us like robots so that we just do as we are told however this is not in harmony with His character of love. He really wants us to be like Him. So even though He knew we would fall, which we did, He had a provision in place for us to be completely restored! In fact He will place us in a higher position than if we had never fallen! Isnt that amazing?!
Praise God for His infinite wisdom! Lets hold on to His Word and truth and spread the good news of our 'second chance' to choose right! Is that not what the gospel is all about? God will make us be more than conquerors as we surrender all to Him!
See Roman 8:26 -39 in the AMPLIFIED VERSION below:
Our Victory in Christ
26 In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words. 27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit intercedes [before God] on behalf of [c]God’s people in accordance with God’s will.
28 And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers. 30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].
31 What then shall we say to all these things? If God is for us, who can be [successful] against us? 32 He who did not spare [even] His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect (His chosen ones)? It is God who justifies us [declaring us blameless and putting us in a right relationship with Himself]. 34 Who is the one who condemns us? Christ Jesus is the One who died [to pay our penalty], and more than that, who was raised [from the dead], and who is at the right hand of God interceding [with the Father] for us. 35 Who shall ever separate us from the love of [d]Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 Just as it is written and forever remains written,
“For Your sake we are put to death all day long;
We are regarded as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors and gain an overwhelming victory through Him who loved us [so much that He died for us]. 38 For I am convinced [and continue to be convinced—beyond any doubt] that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present and threatening, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the [unlimited] love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Dear Georgia,
I think you are struggling with cognitive dissonance because you know the fundamental truth about God’s character, that is, God is love, but you recognize there are some things that you think that do not fit with the concept of love. If what you are thinking (or reading and hearing from other people) does not agree with the fundamental that God is love, it is simply wrong. And as fallible human beings, our understanding (theology) about God is often wrong.
Job’s friends spoke many “religious truths” about God, thinking that they were defending his character, but God said to Eliphaz, “My wrath is kindled against you and your two friends. For you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.” (Job 42:7) In fact, what Job’s friends did is to forge lies (Job 13:4)—they misrepresented and maligned God’s character with the very words they used to defend what they thought were God's actions.
Rather than trying to answer all of the issues you raise, I believe you would find soul-satisfying answers by viewing the Hope Sabbath School series about Job (http://hopess.hopetv.org/watch). [Editor Note: We have been featuring these videos on our home page every week and will continue to do so. So if you go to our home page every week, you'll be able to follow the discussion on HopeTV. This week's discussion is still pinned to the top of the page.]
You might also consider studying the Christ-centered [truth]Link series written by Ty Gibson (http://truthlink.org/).
I hope and pray that you will know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent to this earth to demonstrate his character of everlasting eternal love.
Here is our answer to the question we have been asking from week to week since we started Studing the book of Job this quarter. What kind of God is He who would allow suffering? He is our hope. We live in a universe created by a God who loves us, a God who redeemed us, a God who hears our prayers, a God who intercedes for us, a God who has never forsaken us, a God who will raise our bodies from the dead, and a God who will give us eternal life.
Well here is my testimony:
God said it and I believe it, and that settles it for me, though some may doubt that His word is true, I have choosen to believe it, how about you?
God said it and I believe it, and that's good enough for me.
Thank you God for giving us your Son, and making Him the One. Romans 8:31-32. 1John 4:9-11.
Happy Thanksgiving!
I like what you are saying John, but I also know how hard it is to believe and trust him when you have been "kicked in the guts" by people you have trusted, by nature and by personal or family illness. There are times when the light appears very dim, and trust is hard to maintain. I often see people struggling because they have really drawn the short straw of life. Being there for people in those circumstances is part of our mission.
I have had family members struggling with the darkness of depression, in spite of their deep Christian faith and know something of the awful feeling that they have fallen though the cracks of God's love. The touch of a human hand in these circumstances is like a touch from God. We need to remind ourselves that often we are God's hands.
Jesus knows what it feels like to loose love ones. Like Joseph, John the Baptist, Judas. He knows how hellish the great controversy is. Yet he stayed the course, for he knows much more then the scars of the moment. I can't wait to see his face when he sees, like Paul Harvey would say; "The rest of the story"
This morning it is with grateful and humble hearts that we thank God for the hope that he has placed before us. We know that he loves us desperately. He is never taken by surprise in any situation that befalls us. He will be with us through every trial and struggle and we have this hope that he will never leave us nor forsake us. We have a hope that one day soon all this will be gone and sweet eternity will begin with the God head . Amen
Jeremiah tells us that God created us for a purpose and good plans, to reach our fullest but not to fail. so no matter what affliction we may be witnessing in our current world lets give thanks to God because He is incharge.... Lamentation 3:23 tell us to trust only in Him who created the earth.
It is amazing that we have been provided for in God's providence. The daily conflicts and trials often cause us to wonder about these promises, but we must hold on and keep trusting. Christ prayed that our faith fail not. Our hope rests completely in our faith in the promise of eternal life. May God help each of us to continually look up and not waver as we wait like Job for deliverance. The end is going to be better than the beginning. Be Faithful!
On this Thanksgiving Eve, I thank God for looking down through eternity, and before the foundation of the world, seeing ME with Him, the Father, with Him, the Son, and with Him, the Holy Spirit, having allowed the blood of Jesus to cover my sins, so that I can stand faultless before them. So no matter the sufferings, no matter the pain, no matter what I have to go through on this earth, I have the promise of Jesus, "...that where I Am there you will be with me also" John 13:3. I thank God for "a better day".
Happy Thanksgiving to all,
We may face some difficult struggles and who knows what lies ahead of us; but we serve a God of hope. A God who knew that we would fall so through His love and mercy He put in place a life of hope . I will never leave you nor forsake you. Hold fast till I come. God never lies. So my friends no matter what the problem is, God is in charge, he knows more than we do . Trust in the Lord with all your heart and soul and lean not onto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path. One day all our struggles will be over as it was for Job, so it will be for us. God bless
Our hope is motivated by our sense of need as was Job, even Jesus needed hope. For it is said, in the Desire of ages, that his hope dwindled,is faith staggered, but his love grew stronger and stronger.
Georgia, God knew we would sin, yet in love he created us in His image and to prove to all beings how loving and just he is, he did so by giving us the freedom of choice. In as much as he could have scrapped the plan he wanted us to choose to return his love; He did not want to demand our love for Him. Like Job said "even though you slay me, yet will I trust in you Lord". Job made the choice to trust God even though life really took swings at him. You see when we choose to trust God we are showing what great power God gave to us. Other created beings do not have this same power that humans have (the power of choice) and Satan is left to scramble when we use our power to choose God.
Our choice to trust God where we cannot trace him is very powerful indeed; and in so doing we are saying to everyone else, I choose God because I know when I finally get to meet him face to face (faith) I will get answers to questions humans can't answer.
Keep trusting my sister, the closer you get to knowing who God truly is the less confused you will become.
Please someone show me a clear text that says or suggests God knew we would sin. I think God made a provision for sin 'just in case' we made that choice. NOT that 'he knew' for that would defeat the purpose of giving a choice.There are some attributes about God that we do not comprehend and we should avoid easy and cheap conclusions. The foreknowledge of God is beyond human comprehension as of now.Like the emergency exit window in a bus;did the manufactures know the bus would have an accident and therefore put the window? Of coarse not, but yet the window was planned and placed before the accident.
Hi Brandie, I accept the fact that God is love but I can't see him proving to the angels or anyone else how much he loves by going through with his plan to create us knowing full well that we would choose to sin thus bringing all this suffering and pain even the death of Jesus our Lord.
Another point: the angels do have the power of choice hence Lucifer choosing to rebel and the other 1/3 of them choosing to follow him. I will hold to the fact that God's ways are far above finding out and will trust Him to the end. Maybe then and only then will I get some answers. God bless.
Maurice, I am not sure what discovery you are referring to. If you mean discovery of new truths, indeed He does enjoy. Truth is not static, but progressive and dynamic. We are day by day moving from one level of our faith and obedience as we discover new truth from His Word. Certain situations in the Word inspire us to move from our level laxity to firm stand in the Lord against all odds.
But on the other hand, if you mean to discover who God is, then God ceases to be God. We can not search and find out the wisdom and mysteries of God. Peradventure He is discovered, He no longer qualifies to be God- we have discovered His mysterious nature- have searched His wisdom. Inspirations says that throughout the expanse of eternity we will not discover the wisdom and mystery of God, but we will have new discoveries that will excite our mind- things that will make eternity a bliss.
Remember, before the fall, our first parents were day by day fascinated with new discoveries- the mysteries of God through His creative power. He is the Creator and we are His creation. He delights seeing His children discovering new things of His creative power.
I understand all that Renford but the issue is that we are made in God's image. In some respects that means we enjoy what God enjoys. For most of my life I have been a scientist and have enjoyed mastering difficult concepts and discovering new ideas. Our concept of God is that he is all-knowing (Omniscient if you want to be theological) and thus unable to enjoy the experience of discovering something new. He has in fact given us an experience that he cannot have.
This is another example of the contradictions surrounding our concept of God. It does not particularly bother me, but it does raise an issue regarding our understanding of the relationship between the creator and created. Personally I think that part of the problem is the language. We have cemented into our thinking certain ideas about God in the words omniscience, omnipresent, omnipotence that are very limiting.
I will use just one example to illustrate the problem. The popular view of the word infinity is that it means a very large number, but to a mathematician it is much more than that. It is hard for a mathematician to describe infinity without bringing in a number of other terms such as asymptotic, divergence, and so on. It is essentially a very complex term.
Likewise when we talk about God as being omniscient, we often think of the term as meaning all-knowing without some of the consequences of that meaning. Here is another question to think about. Can God choose not to know? Think carefully before answering that one with either a yes or no. {wicked grin}
Yes! He can choose not to know. Because what would be the use of the Holy Spirit if He choose to know who will be saved or not? In fact, judgement is not yet over, and even there is still hope beyond anything. Therefore, God can choose to know but He choose not to know and put everything into judgement.
In the case of Lucifer, God knows already but God did not announce the probable ending of Lucifer, in fact, SOP told us that Jesus Himself are trying to convince Lucifer to submit to His Father but Satan refused on it. So we can see that God could know what would be the ending but He choose not to know so that everyone would not be judge in a time, but given a chance to repent or not through the convincing power of the Holy Spirit.
For me, God could choose to know but He did not, all we know is that God can help us in any ways to solve our problems, that is why we should only trust Him always as a God who has still this world in His hands. Gen. 1:1 He is still our creator until today and forever. God bless
Maurice, what are the consequences to God of the meaning/understanding of OMNISCIENCE?. Are those consequences determined by God or puny, finite man? I think you determined one: God is “unable to enjoy the experience of discovering something new”. But God created us and leads us to discoveries in His creation and therefore rejoices more than ourselves in those discoveries. He created beings inferior to Himself for His glory.
Yes, our language, finite as it is, has caused quite a bit of confusion with respect to understanding our *infinite* God, especially with terms like *free will* and *choice* - simple terms but affect eternal things.
The essence of the difference is that Omniscience, in our common usage means "knows everything" which consequently precludes the learning experience. Man, puny and finite though he may be has been created with a sense of curiosity to learn new information and experiences. We are curious creatures and adapt our behavior as a result of feedback from our curiosity. God by definition of omniscience cannot be curious unless of course God chooses not to know some things. I am sure that God does rejoice in our curiosity when it leads to discovery.
One way we can look at this question of omniscience is to ask the question; What is more important: what God knows, or how does God know? If we think that the second idea is important then we may like to consider that God does not only create physical things; he *creates* knowledge. In that sense God goes one better than knowing (or learning) everything, he can indeed create (invent if you like) new knowledge.
Or is that getting too metaphysical?
To us we can create only what we "know". Since God "knows" everything or has all knowledge, nothing He creates will be *new* to Him. New implies absence in the past. With God there is no time - past, present, or future. Agreed?
Several points above in this conversation are interesting to consider.
God has capacity and ability we can't even begin to imagine, and His lacking of our limitations does not rob Him of anything good. He has no beginning, but we do, and from this beginning we must grow in various ways, and as a fallen race, often it's our mistakes that are our best teachers. God knows this. The goal is to become like Him and for this purpose He works for every soul. Our imperfect state requires limits in order to grow perfectly.
Our best interest seems to be bound up in accepting by faith what God HAS revealed, and leave the speculative knowledge to the infidels who struggle to acknowledge God(notice I didn't say believe in a God? They know He's there, the evidence is too overwhelming even for those determined to disprove His existence) simply because they cannot understand too many things about Him. Why the curious need to understand things NOT yet revealed when so much that is highly relevant has been revealed?
We know God loves us(sinners) with an everlasting love, and has paid an infinite(we cannot measure it) price for our redemption, and offers us a life measured with His life(looking forward to infinity!) and He will consider us as if we had always been perfect and upright before Him, because Jesus HAS been perfect and upright always, and places that "robe" upon us if we receive Him and believe on His name, as He has been adequately revealed. What else do we need to understand if we have this? More will come once this sinful mess is dealt with. Are we helping to deal with this mess as God has demonstrated in Christ our Example?
Kenny, as for nothing new for God, I imagine He delights in every blossoming bud as if it had never been seen before, just as we do every spring though we may have seen it all our lives. Every sunrise is "new" and always(so far) different than the ones before it. Last Sabbath we, along with many others, were standing in awe of yet another sunset. Everyone stopped what they were doing for over 1/2 hour to enjoy what we have seen many times, as if we had never seen it before. Yet it was "new" and would soon be gone, and no one was wanting to miss a single moment. Do you think God enjoyed that "new" sunset, or the fact we were all thrilled to watch it? Maybe both? I think both.
Melmar, God knows who will be saved, but allows us to live our choices as if He did not, and still appeals to those who will eventually be lost as if they could be saved. He lets every soul determine their own destiny, but labors to save all in the best possible way for each individual according to their specific need and opportunity. Jesus never lost His supreme interest in saving Judas, though scripture prophesied his treachery and betrayal.
The way I see it, God experiences the excitement of *creating* something new for us to discover. 🙂
God has left for us the excitement of *discovering* something new that He created.
Sort of like Christmas morning Inge? You know, mom and dad already know what's under the wrappings, yet, we find them as excited as the children, and they are the ones with the camera cherishing the children's joy!
Hi Renford, I'm confused again. You said,
You are saying that if we discover God then He is no longer God. Does that mean that He is God only because we have not discovered Him? Does His existence depend on us not discovering Him? This would suggest here that he is just a figment of our imagination, which He is not. Sorry to be using this forum for this. Somebody please shed some light. Thanks
Georgia, not intending to speak for Renford, but I imagine he is simply implying that we will never have the capacity as creatures to fully know God. His reference to the EGW quote of spending eternity learning more about God without end would suggest he was making that point. God is God because He is the origin of all that exists. He is the Sovereign who answers to no one, but gives more than He could possibly receive in return. He is the eternal fount of every blessing.
He exists by Himself while all creation depends on Him for existing each moment.
Hi Maurice,
I agree with your general response regarding truth. However, I think it would be more precise to say that Truth is. It is our discovery of truth that is progressive and dynamic.
Maurice,
I hear you.
On your question_ Yes He can.
Great discussion board here!
God foreknew, he planned ahead and made provision.
Ezekiel 28:15 KJV
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
Lucifer was inclining before Eden to be sinful. Satan is a fully formed rebellious youth, but his trouble was predicted and prepared for before Eden. The Bible is clear, we have always had God's provision. Now we see through a dirty window, soon we will see face to face (1 Cor 13:12). So then rejoice! By believing in his promise we have assurance of his deliverance. God delineated the fate of Satan,(Rev 20) he will carry you too. The great controversy started before humanity, God's provision is enough for anything we can encounter (1 Cor 10:13). Jesus volunteered for complete submission, even the death on a tree (cursed of God:Gal 3:13) even before Lucifer was created. This he did because he loves us.
Very well and simply said, Michael. God incorporated in His plan, for His purpose, all the events we experience. His Son came to birth in God-ordained time, just like the Pharaoh of Moses time, just like you and me in this time rather than the 19th century like Hitler. GOD IS THE CREATOR. His plan is *perfect*. Every thing has happened as planned! God made both Lucifer’s and Adam’s rebellions a part of His plan for His purpose.
I agree, Robert, that God rejoices in every beautiful sunset as if it is new everyday. But God does not “give what is holy to dogs, nor throw His pearls before swine”(Matt 7:6). God respects the Devil’s ownership of beings like Judas and Cain. He would give them advice like He did to Cain. We, who don’t know those who are of the Devil (John 8:44-47), must declare the word to all peoples so that those who are of God will hear and believe.(Acts 13:48)
The sentence "Every thing has happened as planned!" is too deterministic a description for a God-created, free-choice universe. My preferred interpretation is that God has planned for every contingency that can arise as a result of the exercise of free choice. Maybe we are saying the same thing but semantically, allowing for free choice is something that is essentially God-given.
I have trouble with the sentence, "Every thing has happened as planned!"
It makes God responsible for the rebellion of Lucifer and humanity. And thus it makes Him responsible for the evil on this world. It does not allow for the fact that God created intelligent beings with free choice, and it was that free choice *not* to trust God that resulted in evil.
Then the omnipotent, omniscient God's plan has been an absolute bust or failure. Can He point to any thing in His plan that can be considered a success? How much of His plan is failure? He boasts that everything has gone according to plan.
Kenny, I think that is a rather cynical comment.
We are faced with two alternatives:
1) a perfect plan written to a script (predestined), or
2) a plan that provides for people who make rebellious choices and offers redemption
So much of the Bible is the story about people who make wrong choices and who are reconciled to God. God has not written a script for us to act out and to be lost or saved at the end of the script. He allows us to use the free choice to rebel against him, and use that free choice to allow us to be reconciled back to him. That there is going to be a great numberless crowd of people who are saved is an indicator of success. Those who are not there have chosen of their own free will not to be there.
The plan would have been a failure if God had stepped in at the first exercise of free choice and said "you cannot do that!" and zapped them out of existence. If there is one characteristic of God that comes through clearly in the Bible, it is his long-suffering patience with sinners.
Kenny, would it be more accurate to say "everything has happened as foreseen"? I know you do not believe God intended for evil, but that He foresaw it would come(it is always a threat in free-will societies), but He had a plan to make sure it would never come again. So before anything was created, the remedy for what would come was already in place.
I think I know what you're saying, but some have perhaps misapplied it?
We need to be careful about using design and beauty as an argument for our perception of God. I too enjoy a beautiful sunset but I am also very much aware that the very best sunsets are caused by events such as dust-storms and volcanoes. Living on the eastern side of Australia with roughly 3000 miles of arid country to the west of us we are only too aware of the causal relationship between dust-storms tearing away at the soil and the beautiful colours of sunsets (and sunrises).
As a bird photographer, I spend countless hours in the wild photographing beautiful birds, some of which have very melodious songs. I take issue with those well-intentioned Christians who describe bird song as giving praise to the creator, when I know that some of the calls are warnings that predators are around. Others are territorial calls warning other birds to stay away from their territory. And still others are songs of delight that they have just killed another bird and are about to eat it. In Australia one melodious genus of birds are called Butcherbirds for very good reason.
I learned early in life that for every teleological argument, there is a dis-teleological argument. I have a couple of very perceptive Science and Theology lecturers in my early years who taught me to think about ideas and not just learn off pat arguments.
That does not mean that we dismiss the notion of design altogether. In short, we can see evidence of design and beauty but we can also see evidence of evil tampering with the design, and God making the most of that tampering for our best good. The battle between good and evil, in that it affects nature, makes for a complex picture. While we Christians can provide arguments that are satisfactory to ourselves, we are unlikely to convince those who believe in a mechanistic universe. That does not particularly perturb me but in my discussions with them I like to give then some food for thought.
Maurice, don't you see how God takes the evil and makes something wonderful and promising with it? No matter what causes it, who ever disliked a beautifully colorful sunset, even amid tragedy? As for the birds, they eat what the creator has provided for them in a sinful world that would be unbalanced without predators, or why would God have given them that capacity? The birds might not be consciously praising God, but their beautiful calls, lovely flight and sometimes wonderfully colorful appearance makes God worthy of our praise for His wonderful creations, though knowing that sin has tainted them, yet this is not God's intention or fault. "An enemy hath done this".
Remember, our perceptions of God are found while living in a world polluted by sin, yet we can see God's original intentions amid the woeful effects of sin. Isn't what we "see" affected by our personal experience and perspective? For people of faith, there are today, in this wicked world, more reasons to praise God than to curse Satan. It isn't even close. That's why one of three greatest things is; Hope.
Without the Bible as our guide, teleological arguments will often fail to teach us truth.
That was the point of my last paragraph above. And if we are to make sense of it to our un-churched friends we have to live a life that consistently shows God using us for the best good of those who are within our sphere of influence. Our lives should be a living witness to a God of love.
Remember that Satan is a woefully inferior being to God. God does not react to Satan. God puts His plan in motion absolutely independent of Satan's existence, as a matter of fact before Satan existed. Satan reacts to God's plan. There is none like God.
Well, no Robert. Psychics and Nostradamus types have some success with foreseeing. God boasts that He knows(Isa 46:9-13; 45:5-9,21; 41:22-27: 14:24-27; 25:1: Ps 33:11-15). He knows our thoughts(Matt 9:4; Ps 139:1,2; 1Chr 28:9; Ps 94:11; Isa 66:18; Heb 4:12,13). In Mat 9:4, Jesus knowing their thoughts ...If God knows our thoughts, when did He learn or discover these thoughts? (God knows the position, mass, and speed of the top quark at any time...this is the only opinion Maurice *might* appreciate in this post).
Take Peter’s denial of Jesus where we see God’s plan or purpose in action. Satan asks for permission to sift Peter. Peter swears that it was impossible for him to deny Jesus. Is it that Jesus foresaw his denial? He knew it and restored Peter, beforehand, from his fall. Did He *foresee* Peter’s “turn”? Christ himself brings him to repentance. Here, we see that believers are kept or persevere by the power of God through faith and the prayers of Jesus.
If “Jesus” had asked the Father, a million years ago, what He, Jesus, would be doing in the year, say, 2 BC. According to foresight the Father would look down into the future and might tell Him, “I see that you are a baby in Israel and wise men bringing gifts to you...”
Kenny, from what you wrote, you agree with me. So what is the meaning of "Well, no Robert", or have I missed something?
You cannot foresee unless you know. The others have only guessed based on probability or from connections with evil angels who also must guess. Only God sees the future with absolute surety. God hasn't just seen the future, to Him it isn't future, as we experience it. (I have no way to really describe it better, since I cannot understand it) I simply believe it because God has demonstrated it perfectly. I don't see God running back and forth through time, but rather, all time is present to Him.(maybe??? Just trying to express what I can't understand)
God is infinitely beyond our best imaginings.
Also, a million years ago Jesus knew everything the Father knew. It was Michael who revealed to prophets the details of what would be His earthly existence. He needed to ask no one. "The Lord our God is one(echad) God", remember?
Have we considered that a God who "knows good and evil" in revealing Himself to His creation might allow evil to enter? Since good is a comparative term we can appreciate good better by seeing evil.
If this is true Kenny, then good isn't really "good" is it? Good does not need bad to show how good it is, but rather, good reveals why bad is bad.
Correct, Robert. But beings who would ignorantly choose evil may need that exposition. It’s interesting that our first view of the earth is a body covered in “darkness” - evil’s domain. God’s light dispels the darkness temporarily, until sunset. Sunset does not represent such a blissful thing therefor - the passing of daylight and the onset of darkness. It seems that from the beginning that God is dealing with evil and will bring in an eternal “day”.
Interesting analogy, yet in it's pre-created state of darkness, the earth had no evil or good. It was as a blank canvas and void of any life, waiting for the Artist's expression. When it was finished, the Artist called it "very good", which included the evening hours. Keep in mind that the "darkness of night is really just a lower level of light with the stars and moon. There is beauty in the night you will never be able to witness in the day. You cannot star gaze during the day. How many fireflies have you enjoyed seeing at noon vs evening? There are flowers that bloom only at night, and many creatures that come to life as well. Yes, even the night was "very good".
As for ignorantly choosing evil, the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit brings conviction to every soul on the earth concerning what is sin and what is righteous within their sphere, and that there will be a reckoning(John 16:8). None are ignorant in transgression while the Holy Spirit remains in the earth.
Kenny, yes, some have considered that idea, and most Christians reject the idea that evil was necessary to appreciate good.
Rather, evil is the result of exercising the free choice with which God created humanity. Choosing to step outside of God's will resulted in evil.
Evil is not "something" in itself than can "enter" anything. Evil results from rejecting God's will/law.
Inge, how many events in our history that God has not *allowed* or prevented? How many in our own personal lives that we attribute to the miraculous - why we are still alive? One is the Abraham and Abimelech incident in Gen 20. Because of Abraham’s deception Abimelech took Sarah to himself. God says, “...and I also restrained you from *sinning* against Me; therfore I did not let you touch her.”(Gen 20:4) God then commissioned deceiving Abraham to pray for Abimelech.
God’s ways are different from ours. It is evident that God allows all events that suit His eternal plan and purpose. The better to reveal His infinite love He “allowed” sin to “enter”- He allowed Lucifer and Adam to rebel.
About the man born blind Jesus said, “Neither this man sinned...but so that the works of God might be displayed in him.” Jn 9:3. How should we understand that? God did not create and just left the creation to itself, as some might be insinuating. Sin will never rise again and there will be eternal light, no darkness.