Friday: Further Thought ~ From Mystery to Revelation
Further Thought:
It is instructive to note that the image of Daniel chapter 2 is made of gold and silver, which are metals related to economic power. The image is also made of bronze and iron, which were used for tools and weapons, and of pottery, which was used in the ancient world for literary and domestic purposes.
Image © Stan Myers from GoodSalt.com
Thus, the image provides a vivid portrayal of humanity and its accomplishments. Most appropriately, the distinct anatomical parts of the image convey the succession of world kingdoms and the final disunity that will prevail in the last days of human history. The stone, however, is distinctly depicted as something not made with “human hands” (Dan. 2:45, NIV), a powerful reminder of the supernatural end that will come to this temporary world and all its human accomplishments.
Although “to the unaided human eye, human history may appear to be a chaotic interplay of forces and counterforces … Daniel assures us that behind all of this stands God, looking down upon it and moving within it to achieve what He sees best”. — William H. Shea, Daniel: A Reader‘s Guide (Nampa, ID: Pacific Press, 2005], p. 98.
Discussion Questions:
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The story is told of the Swiss Mathematician Leonhard Euler who was employed at the Russian Academy of Science under the patronage of Catherine 1. At the same time, Denis Diderot, a French philosopher from the Age of Reason was also employed there. Apparently Euler, who had a church background, and Diderot who was an atheist did not get on all that well. In one of their confrontations Diderot asked Euler to prove that God exists, so Euler wrote on the chalk board:
eiπ + 1 = 0
Therefore God exists.
Now for those of you who do not know any mathematics this mathematical formula (its actually know as an identity). does not make a lot of sense, but take it from me that it relates the 5 most important numbers of mathematics together in a simple elegant statement. As the story is told, Diderot was dumfounded by this "proof" and ceased arguing.
Now is reality, while the simple relationship known as Euler's identity is quite cute in mathematical terms and is certainly part of the argument about why mathematics is so useful in expressing the relationships we see about the physical world around us, it does not really prove the existence of God.
And I keep getting this idea that prophecy, while it is affirming and indeed comforting for us as believers, does not prove the existence of God either. I am not saying that we should not believe the prophecies, but that we should recognise their limitation. The big picture of the image of Nebuchadnezzar is that the flow of nations, is just more of the same; power, control, conflict, greed, right through history, and can only be replaced by the coming of the Kingdom of God. This is where I disagree with the statement made by the lesson authors:
I think that while this is the culmination, the Kingdom of God must be alive and in our hearts before this event can take place. The physical coming of God's Kingdom can only make sense if we have made place for the coming of the King in our hearts. That is something that is not limited by time and sequence.
I hope that there is sufficient room in our historicist view of prophecy to extend it to include an application to our spiritual lives as well.
Dominion, dominate, domination, domain.
At the beginning of this quarter I suggested we watch out for this concept in Daniel.
The dictionary definition is - being in charge of and/or ruling over it, most often a king over a nation.
In Genesis 1:26-28 the LORD gave Adam & Eve dominion over all the creatures on the earth.
In Dan 2:37-38 the LORD gave Nebuchadnezzar dominion over all the creatures and people in the known world.
By what right does the LORD 'give' dominion to them? Genesis 1 tells us because He is the Creator of everything.
Dan 2:19-22 confirms
A)that He changes the times and seasons - (note the word "times" for Dan 7:25) - He rules nature and is not limited by it or reality as some say
B) He removes and sets up kings
C) He gives wisdom and knowledge and reveals secrets.
So the lesson of Daniel 2 is that although it appears that the kings are in charge it is the LORD who is the ultimate Ruler and King of kings who allows or gives dominion to demonstrate to the universe the truth about the Great Controversy, see Job 1:6,7 and Job 38-41
and Rev 12:7-10
Just something to think about Shirley. I see a nuanced difference between the notions of dominion, and domination.
I think dominion carries with it a sense of responsibility while domination has the idea of control with force. God delegates his dominion giving us freedom and responsibility, while Satan takes away our freedom by domination and control - then tries to convince us that we are free.
Yes, Maurice, I agree, there is a difference between the LORD who owns everything but gives dominion, He allows people to be in charge and to have responsibility for people and creatures under their rule.
While the earthly kings (and Satan) dominate and rule by force.
This is the Great Controversy - Satan accuses the LORD of dominating for His own benefit - this is why He allows the events of history to play out so the Universe can see the difference.
Herbert Douglas once said to a group of students after each had two turns at word discussion. "Okay its time go quit playing word games." If my memory serves me correct it was, work, serve, deeds, doers. What was the conclusion since I had the intestines to quote? I will serve Him because He loves me. Yes and I love Him too. MB p.141.
1. It is quite challenging to think of a loving God Who has dominion over the whole earth while we see all the present tragedies going on. But that was not His original plan. His original plan for mankind was the perfect world of Eden. When Adam and Eve decided by free will to take a different road, perfection started to fade. And this is where we are right now. I think it is easier to blame our parents, the past or even God for all of the horrible things going on this planet than take some responsability for them. Nature is falling apart not because God predicted, but because mankind is destroying it. Of course, bad things can happen to us without any of our direct influence, which can turn our hearts into a turmoil of feelings, but understanding God's love afterall does give us peace! God did not plan sin, but He planned salvation!
2. God certainly has a perfect plan for all of us to fulfill, as He had for Daniel and His companions. Daniel got close to his time most powerful man, the king, because God allowed that to happen. God's people were taken captive because of their own weaknesses. But even as captives, God continued to show how powerful He is and to bless His faithful servants! Not only through Daniel accounts, but through an entire nation of Israel now perhaps diffusing somehow God's message through that time dominant babylonian culture.
Christ used imagery to teach us. Except ye drink my blood and eat my body.
John 6:53-58.
I believe further evidence that Jesus is the same Lord who instilled the vision in Nebuchadnezzar. The evidence doses not lead me to believe God dwelled(immanence) in Nebuchadnezzar, He put it there.
3. An event capable of turning to "dust" all of the powers and nations of earth at once has not yet happened after Babylon. That has to be something universal and super powerful. No other event with such characteristics is described in the Bible (other than the diluvia, previously to Babylon) but the second coming of Christ, which we believe will destroy and change the entire world's reality completely!
Holy Spirit guide my mind today.
Qu #1 for today.
A. How good to know that amid all the chaos and suffering of this world, God is ultimately in control and will bring everything to a glorious end.
Sometime back I studied Chaos theory at college. This is a complicated study but when understood can be applied to everything in our present world and life itself.
I was made to understand that there is chaos in everything we do no matter how things appear to be normal. Also, in chaos, normalcy is achievable but very slowly, but we eventually learn the new normal which goes back to chaos. Chaos is ongoing. So is life. The only time no chaos existed was before humans sin. A perfect environment.
B. Until then, what is our role in seeking to do all the good that we can to help alleviate the suffering that exists in this fallen world?
Humans can do as much as humans have the power to do to alleviate suffering but suffering will continue until Christ returns. When he comes he will either remove chaos or reverse humans to our former state. Right now humans are operating in the new norm. Steady chaos. Many times we hear people say things like, how the church was before, or before a certain Ps came, or before an influx of certain people, or before technology etc. Behind everything in our churches or community or country there in a God who are in control. We can do the best by his grace amidst constant suffering.
Within the four Kingdoms we see the chaos theory operating at its peak, things moving from chaos to normal then chaos again. This is life. Things will never be normal in a sinful world.
Pardon me from having a little pun but I think we are confusing chaos and confusion! 🙂 The mathematician in me separates the idea of chaos, which is good and necessary, from confusion, which is a result of sin. I am aware that some will think that I am being pedantic but that is one of the burdens we mathematicians just have to bear! 🙂
I admit I have less experience with the understanding of the Chaos Theory. I agree with you that things will not be normal in a sinful world. When I read and study the bible I see chaos entering the picture with the rebellion of Satan but before that time we see a picture of order as you mention. In the old testament the sanctuary and instructions by God were designed to bring order to the Israelites. Even the layout of the camp was in a very organized structure. If we apply human wisdom by using the Chaos Theory it seems to lessen the power of God and what he can do with and for us. God says that he does not change. The New Testament writers constantly refer to living a new life through the power of God and are encouraged to no longer remain in their condition before accepting Christ. The logic to this seems to indicate that while there is chaos in the world around use that we do not have to remain in a condition that is limited being explained by the Chaos Theory.
Jeff, there is a world of difference between chaos (confusion) and Chaos Theory. Chaos theory is a mathematical concept and problems arise when we try to connect it to sin and sinfulness. This discussion is not the place for me to give a lesson on Chaos theory, but in my own experience with fractals (a graphical aspect of Chaos Theory) I have been surprised and enlightened by it application to natural design. I would not be at all surprised to have a really great discussion with the Creator, when I get the chance, about how he used fractals as part of the creative process.
The problem we have with the English language is that we take words and give them quite different meanings depending on their context. That is what is happening here, so we need to be very clear when we are talking about the confusion chaos when we are talking about sin, not Chaos theory.
JC I believe that when the four winds of strife are let go and we are caught up with him in the air, now on our 6th day of travel resting on the 7th day of the week, safely on a planet just inside the Orion, being entertained with heavenly music and food by our hosts that have never fallen, the four-winds of strife will be completely pulled back and a large meteorite no longer being diverted by God’s four Angels, hit the earth, and pulverize the nations. Of course those that are left behind will have already been destroyed by Christ glory, coming in the clouds to rescue us. Then the Devil will sit in the dust for a thousand years with no one to tempt or deceive. Now the author could be right and my scenario could be wrong. The editors thoughts of the stone pulverizing the nations certainly, by His word, would go along with God being able to take care of His own mess. God said and it happened.
John,
Will that meteorite strike the Mount of Olives to make way for the new Jerusalem? What do you think?
When I was knee high to daddy I was told that the Holy City was about the size of Oregon, and that Oregon would make a good foundation. So no the Holy City would not turn the Mount of Olivet into dust. We do know that the Lord will turn the earth into a molten sea to cleanse it after those who are not within the Holy City are destroyed, then recreate our earth. We will have to wait and see what details are in store for us. We do know that it will be more glorious then we can ever imagine