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Tuesday: Experts in Error — 27 Comments

  1. The lesson cites the controversy between the geocentric and the heliocentric models of the universe as an example where wrongly held views were supported by maths and science. Actually, it is a bit more complicated than the lesson indicates.

    The Ptolemaic model was an early attempt to model the behaviour of the visible universe but even in the early days there were those who disputed it. Notably Aristarchas of Samos in the third century BC proposed a heliocentric model for the solar system. The real issue from the perspective of our lesson is that the Ptolemaic model became church dogma in the Christian era and anyone who challenged that was declared to be a heretic. The change to the heliocentric model occurred in the 16th century due largely to the mathematics and observations of people like Copernicus, Keppler, Newton, and Galileo. It wasn’t until these folks challenged the dogma, often at considerable risk to themselves, that the heliocentric model became the accepted model. The issue is that often an idea becomes a fixture and we just accept it and don’t think about it.

    Some of us have made career choices where we have had to study atheistic theories and have consequently faced the challenge of issue of science and belief. My own personal journey has meant that my faith is tested by what I read. I do not suggest that the path that I have followed is the one that everyone should follow. What became very clear to me early on in my career was that faith is important, and like love, is not subject to measurement in the same way as physical phenomenon.

    And how do I argue the case for Christianity with my atheist friends? Hopefully, by living in Christ. In practical terms, that means showing them respect, and care, still loving them when we disagree. Living our beliefs is the biggest challenge we face.

    (51)
    • Good morning Maurice,
      There is a saying that the "proof is in the pudding" and
      Ps 34:8 "taste and see that the Lord is good..." aligns nicely with evidence of a life grounded in Jesus Christ. It is the Jesus effect...I love that phrase and pray daily for it to become the main ingredient of my daily life:)

      (13)
    • And it seems the church had good scripture to hold the geocentric model. The earth was fixed: 1 Chron 16:30, Ps 93:1, Ps 104:5, 1 Sam 2:8. And the sun moved: Ps 19:4-6 (referenced Sunday) and Eccl 1:5. So some believe that Gen 1 is no more reliable.

      I'll admit I don't understand day 4 - the apparent age of many stars doesn't fit. But somethings I just have to let be mysteries and take the Bible as a surety for God's love and mercy. Someday maybe He'll explain it.

      (2)
  2. Even today the theory of evolution is just that, a theory. God has been excluded from it but the more they look, the more they realize there are too many errors and improbabilities. The science of genetics for example has challenged a lot of the presumptions of the theory of evolution. The important thing is that we focus our eyes in Jesus, our Creator and redeemer.

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    • While statements such as "the theory of evolution is just that, a theory" will always resonate with most of the readers of this forum, we need to understand that, to others, the creation story is also a theory, based on a number of fundamental assumptions about the nature of the universe. We cannot do a "creation experiment" to prove creation. We need to be very careful about the language we use to describe ideas we do not believe because our words can be used against us.

      (25)
      • Halo Maurice,

        It's absolutely true some skeptics treat creation story as a theory and even claim the Bible isn't a science textbook,this ,of course might be true because science textbooks change after a period of time, whereas the Bible is the unchanging word of God-the God who can't lie.Nevertheless,the Bible can be relied upon when it touches on every scientific issue.It is the Bible that gives us the big picture within which we can build scientific models that can help us explain how past events may have come about. I was reading an article where some scientists completely and philosophically-apologetically refute the story of the Ark and how animals spread all over the world from where the Ark landed. The Bible doesn't actually say how this happened, yet, it is clear from the Bible it did happen. That is why scientific model is necessary. However, these models, I think, should be held lightly, but the scripture to which they refer is inerrant. This is to say, future research may cast doubt on an actual model, without casting doubt on scripture...My thought though

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      • Either evolution or creationism can be based on rational thinking. But perhaps none of us can really prove our BELIEFS. And because faith is the belief on things unseen, it brings out a different paradigm, it reaches for the intangible. Fortunately, faith can become real within our attitudes, and it becomes materialized only by our own experiences!

        (18)
    • Very true Maurice. Neither creation nor evolution can be scientifically proven, since science can only observe natural phenomenon. Both creation and evolution have to be accepted by faith. But faith in what? Christians in proclaiming faith in JESUS, know that He was not only there in the beginning but Himself is the Creator. We also know that He cannot lie. In other words although no human was there to see what happened in the beginning, we know Someone Who was and He cannot lie...the Creator. Unfortunately as a Christian speaker once said “it takes a lot more faith and blind faith to accept evolution. My faith imply isn’t big enough to accept evolution”

      (10)
    • Scientists have found evidence in DNA that links the human being to one set of parents! Read this and see what you think...bearing in mind their premise is evolution...
      https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/genetic-adam-and-eve-all-humans-are-descendants-one-man-and-woman-who-021536

      (1)
  3. In 1 Timothy 6 I think Paul is telling Timothy to "major in the major things and minor in the minor things" rather than "majoring in the minors".

    Major things: godliness, contentment, righteousness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness, eternal life, making a confession of belief in the presence of many witnesses, attributing honor and might to God only, be rich in good deeds, put hope in God alone, being generous and willing to share

    Minor things: financial income, wealth, liquid assets, food, clothing, prestige, controversies, discussions on opposing ideas that bring quarrels, strife, constant friction, malicious talk, foolish and harmful desires, godless chatter

    Dead-end goals, like knowledge that does not acknowledge God as the foundation, remind me of this excerpt from a lecture by Ravi Zacharias:

    "I remember lecturing at Ohio State University, one of the largest universities in this country. I was minutes away from beginning my lecture, and my host was driving me past a new building called the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts.

    He said, “This is America’s first postmodern building.”

    I was startled for a moment and I said, “What is a postmodern building?”

    He said, “Well, the architect said that he designed this building with no design in mind. When the architect was asked, ‘Why?’ he said, ‘If life itself is capricious, why should our buildings have any design and any meaning?’ So he has pillars that have no purpose (they do not join 2 levels but stop in mid-air). He has stairways that go nowhere.....

    I said, “So his argument was that if life has no purpose and design, why should the building have any design?”

    He said, “That is correct.”

    I said, “Did he do the same with the foundation?”

    All of a sudden there was silence.

    You see, you and I can fool with the infrastructure as much as we would like, but we dare not fool with the foundation because it will call our bluff in a hurry."

    (43)
  4. Experts in Error

    What about the theory that says- Christopher Columbus discovered the West Indies? Book have been written and taught. Reading through the lines, when he got there to those places and others, he met people who welcomed him and his men. How can one discover something/a place when others were already there.
    Who were the people that discovered the great USA?

    (11)
    • Perhaps the danger isn't in learning or hearing the error, but believing it and then teaching it to others as fact, allowing the error to shape the life. For example, there is a difference between feverishly devouring stories of children who cast spells to get things done and those who associate those stories correctly. Children who bow in prayer for resolution, like Daniel.

      (3)
  5. I appreciate Brother/Doctor Ashton's and Doctor/Sister Pelletier's comments. Teaching 8th grade science in public school among atheist colleagues is difficult* for me, especially when they are some of the most loving and caring people in the building! I consider them friends and I pray for them often.

    *[It is difficult because it hurts my heart they want nothing to do with church and by asociation Jesus. I wish to God they accept Yeshua as Lord and Savior.]

    (7)
    • Thank you, Brother Clarke. This is a big and meaningful discussion/ topic for me as it puts a thumb on 2 reasons I left the church (SDA church and any church) for 30 years. The 2 reasons I had then: (1) a lot of the Bible stories don't add up when looking at science and the salvation story itself - God dying and blood washing away sins - just doesn't make sense to any rational mind; and (2) Christianity is snobby, exclusive, small-minded, arrogant towards other cultures, look no further than the missionaries' treatment (generally speaking) of indigenous peoples. And as you rightfully point out, many nonbelievers are the most loving caring people you could know. I always kept Jesus in my heart as a good person and model of loving behavior, but I was not sure that He was/is God and thought I'd take the matter up again at a future time.

      Well for me that future time came a couple years ago. It wasn't a conscious choice, I can only say that the Spirit kept harassing (LOL) me to give it some consideration again, is Jesus God or not? I wasn't being led to look at doctrines, but simply is Jesus Savior and is there anything to be saved from?

      The journey as I explore that question is exciting to me because there is not really one "aha" conversion moment but a slow progressive awareness as I pray and read the Bible every day. 1 Corinthians 2 says so much to me. In 1 Cor 2:2 Paul (a highly educated scholar) says, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:4-5 "My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." What if THAT is what we offered our youth, helping them to know NOTHING except a rock solid belief that Jesus is the only Christ based on a demonstration of His power in our own lives as believers. Are we showing everyone how POWERFUL God is through our own testimony? Are we demonstrating how Christian love is different than all other loves? Are we showing what seeking the Kingdom first means and how that lifestyle differs from another morals-led lifestyle? Writer Annie Dillard says that churches should have seat belts if we fully understood the power of praying and worshipping together! And I believe that only THEN, among the MATURE and those whose faith is fully established (1 Cor 2:6), God can reveal to us even the deep things of God (1 Cor 2:10). I believe there are and will be believers in God's Kingdom that have differing doctrinal beliefs (Romans 14:1-12).

      Where am I now with those 2 arguments against Christianity? (1) I can only understand spiritual truths expressed in the Bible if I take the leap of faith to believe ....it's the opposite of the scientific method....it's belief first and then comes proof (1 Cor 2:12-16). And faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Right now I'm tuning out all other devices and soaking myself in the Word. And praise God it's starting to make sense! And (2) Jesus says He's the only way (John 14:6); so while that sounds exclusive once you enter in through that door God's Kingdom is completely inclusive (Isaiah 45:22, Psalm 67:2; Revelation 7:9). If the gospel had spread throughout the world more in Jesus' Spirit of humility (for instance, listening and paying attention to how God was already working in the indigenous people's lives and not imposing cultural changes that had nothing to do with the gospel and respecting treaties and rights) it would have looked different.

      (15)
      • Hello, Esther - welcome back! I greatly enjoy your contributions and agree whole-heartedly with all the observations you shared about the faith demonstrated by the organized church versus the personally experienced Walk by Faith.
        I also chose to eventually: "tune out all other devices and soak myself in the Word", finding as you do: '..praising God for it to start making sense!"
        In your previous comment you shared Ravi Zacharias' observation: " .. but we dare not fool with the foundation because it will call our bluff in a hurry." So true!

        (3)
    • Thank you so much, Brother Clarke. I appreciate your heart for your colleagues. As an anthropologist and public school educator also, I ask these "what if" questions. What if my life was such a demonstration of the Spirit's power that many could be led to Christ through no persuasive words at all? (1 Cor 2:4) What if the Body of Christ turned from resting on men's eloquence and superior wisdom and plugged into God's power (1 Cor 2:5)?
      Annie Dillard says that churches should have seat belts in the pews to strap us down while we pray and worship!
      What if we bolted out of services like lightning, on fire with Jesus' passion to deny self and serve? What if it was radiantly clear the difference between an unbeliever's moral life and a life filled with Jesus' tenderness and compassion? What if the legacy of the gospel going out into all the world was largely a story of humility where evangelists eagerly listened to celebrate how God was already leading and revealing Himself in indigenous people's lives, where there was honesty and treaties kept and purely cultural rights and differences respected, where the other was considered greater than self (Phil 2:3), where full apologies and restitutions occurred for atrocities done in the name of Christ?

      What if for any doubts that we have in the gospel story we realize that spiritual things are foolishness until we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:14-16) and so we run from the spirit of the world (1 Cor 2:12) and spend as much time as we can marinating in the Word of God until His Righteousness is the whole flavor of our life (Romans 10:17)? What if we allow each to be guided by their own faith and walk with God into a set of beliefs that they "live to the Lord" (Rom 14:1-13) and instead of separating into denominations and judging we together resolve to know nothing except Jesus Christ and him crucified (1 Cor 2:2)? What if we lay aside every weight (Heb 12:1-2; Rom 8:2) and run a race of faith looking only to Jesus?

      (7)
      • Thank you for your patience everyone! When my computer shut down I thought I had lost the first post so I wrote this one. Apologies for the repetition.

        (1)
      • Esther - then we would truly be the Shining Light on the Hill, the Salt of Truth to clarify the understanding of man; we would be known as the glad and greatful citizens of the Kingdom of God, loved and watched over by our Heavenly Father who encourages us to walk in the path of Righteousness for the sake of His Honor and Glory and our Salvation!

        (2)
  6. Esther,
    What a perfect illustration! What a waste of time and talent for that postmodern building. A building that demonstrates the nonsense of the human mind with random thoughts and no purpose. It reminded me of the song: "The wise man builds his house upon a rock and the foolish man builds his house upon the sand."
    Additionally, the utter chaos of the postmodern house is an example of why we must become like little children (Matt 18:3), expressing an innocent inquiring mind with faith that our lives have a purpose to reflect our Master Creator and Savior.

    (2)
  7. I read a book recently which I have pointed out before called “ Undeniable” by Douglas Axe. Axe holds a PhD in Molecular Biology. His book however is more philosophic in nature than scientific. It has become one of my top 5 books. He is an excellent writer. Axe refutes Darwin, and his present day apologist Dawkins, through his life’s work by proving it is impossible to create an enzyme by accident. His work has been reluctantly acknowledged by the scientific community without any fanfare. It has been buried. Without and enzyme there can be no bacteria which is itself a remarkably designed little factory in an of itself but I digress.

    Axe referred to and refuted Dawkins so often, I found myself driven to swallow hard and go get and read what is considered to be his best apologetic defense of Evolution, “The Bind Watchmaker”, by Richard Dawkins. It is hard to be fare to the argument if one does not really know what the other side is putting out there. I was apprehensive because I thought my beliefs might be challenged. I thought that soooo many people believe this drivel, there must be some real logic behind it. Much to my surprise and delight, “The Blind Watchmaker” is an illogical, indefensible and a faith based fairytale!

    Douglas Axe points out late in his book during an interview/debate that Ben Stein had with Richard Dawkins, Dawkins was forced to admit to the possibility of intelligent design. This is the man Evolutionists consider to be what CS Lewis is to Christianity. Here is a link to the brief portion of the debate if you care to listen to a beaten man.

    https://logosherald.com/atheist-admits-intelligent-design-probability/

    (2)
  8. Wow, today’s illustration is amazing, the whole message in one picture. The galaxy is understood through the Word of the LORD which hovers over the waters and out of chaos the world is created by the words of the Triune God in partnership. Praise the LORD the Universe is not corrupted like the earth.

    Of all the many verses about the heavens these 3 impressed me.

    Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims His handiwork.
    Psa 19:2 Day to day it pours forth speech, and night to night it reveals knowledge.

    Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

    Isa 40:21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
    Isa 40:22 It is He who sits on the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers; it is He who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

    (8)
    • Halo Shirley,

      Your point has hit me the hardest.Isaiah 40:22 is a verse which has solved the long term controversy between the heliocentric and geocentric views of the planet earth.It blatantly declares the earth as circular indeed.God will never lie and never errs in His love letter to humanity,the Bible.

      (3)
  9. There are those who will not seek an education that includes anything other than Biblical teachings. They do not want to study error.It is also important to know oneself. How will this education affect my walk with God? That is a question to be carefully considered by parents and students. Perhaps not everyone can learn error and be able to separate it from their understanding of Godly education.
    However,I am reminded of the story of Daniel,an exemplary Hebrew who surely learned a great deal of error and downright paganism along with the rest of the knowledge he gained among the Babylonians.
    Perhaps Ravi Zacharias is appropriate for those who sit at the feet of those not of our belief. We might ask, What of the foundation?

    (3)
  10. Pursuit of knowledge for the sake of being found right in the eyes of others is different from the spiritual meaning of accruing knowledge. I believe that all accumulated knowledge is ultimately meant for the enhancement of the Glory of God; what good does it do if we major in the eyes of the ‘minors’?

    If professional scientists want to take a stab at discovering the mysteries of the Universe, this is admirable, but when *schools of thought* form around their findings, than it becomes divisive and adversarial.
    Certainly, students should be taught the context in which to do excellent research work in any field of study; this *context* needs to stay within the confounds of established Truth as written about in the Scripture’s, spiritually perceived Truth. Christian teachers would most likely make sure that the student never forgets who’s handiwork he attempts to unravel with his research.

    The lesson I take away is that man should not glamor or compete for the *glory* of being considered right in the eyes of their peers , but use their findings to enhance their standing in the eyes of the Creator and humbly give the Glory to God where it belongs.
    He does him/herself a great favor by acknowledging that he does not know it all, since this is what science is all about: searching for and providing better understanding of that which we did not know before!

    (2)

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