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Sabbath: When All Things Become New — 30 Comments

  1. I am sorry if I seem so contrary all the time but to me the millennium will not be a utopia. How can it be when we discover all the people we have known that are not there and through research find out why? How can it be when we also realize that we could have influenced many of them toward the right choices and possibly through that eventually see them in Heaven? As I understand it, the millennium will be a time of a lot of tears and self recrimination for our lack of faith and action.

    In my opinion the real utopia doesn't start until all the sin and sinners are finally no more and the new heaven and new earth are created. At that time I can see the fulfillment of Rev 21:4 but not before.

    • Yes, Tyler, I believe there will be tears in heaven - tears of sorrow for those who have rejected the grace of Christ.

      But it seems to me that annihilation might be more attractive than 1000 years of self-recrimination! The problem I see with self-recrimination is that it`s still a focus on self. And the focus of the saved will not be on self, but on Christ.

      I believe that the tears in heaven will be healing tears. Tears of acceptance of the merciful judgment of God.

      If we are concerned about self-recrimination, we still have time to do something about that. Today and tomorrow, until the day of our death. It is our privilege to represent God to others in such a way that they will be attracted to Him and learn to trust Him with their destinies. The past is no longer in our control. We can leave it in God`s hands, but today is ours - ours to live to His glory.

      I see it this way: Yes, we will have a full knowledge of our own failures, but we will also know that they are covered by the blood of Christ. We will see God's mercy and justice fully displayed: Those who have chosen not to accept the grace of Christ would not be happy in heaven. And God, in mercy, grants them their wish to be hidden from the presence of God.

      To me, it seems that thoughts of what "could have been" are second-guessing God, and I don't think that the saved will be doing that.

      • The bible has been very clear. There will not be any crying to be found anywhere in heaven.

        (‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”. Rev 21 : 4)NIV.

        Isa 35 :10 also makes it crystal clear. (" and those the Lord has rescued will return.
        They will enter Zion with singing;
        everlasting joy will crown their heads.
        Gladness and joy will overtake them,
        and sorrow and sighing will flee away")NIV.

        Scriptural facts should never be replace by intellectual reasoning.

        • Cyfi, Isnt the spiritual fact, that God wipes the tears from our eyes? Then the Bible is clear that there are tears in heaven until He wipes them away. Also Isaiah 35 is very clear that sighing and sorrow flea away. How do they flea away if they were never there? Those are Scriptural facts.

        • Hi Cyfyi and William,

          There are two ways to interpret the promise that God will wipe away every tear. One way is to take it more or less literally - that there will be tears in heaven that God will wipe away.

          The other way to interpret it is that God will remove all reason for tears so that there will be no tears in heaven at all.

          I'm content to leave the details with God. 🙂

    • On reflection of my comment perhaps self-recrimination was a little too strong of a word to use in that context. The question is during the 1000 years will there be tears and will we be mindful of where we fitted into the plan of salvation with respect to the lost?

      I remember many years ago hearing a preacher on the radio say that when the wicked are burning outside the camp the saints on the walls of the New Jerusalem will be cheering as the flames go up. I said to myself "cheering? when a significant number of God's creation has to be destroyed?" Besides, I thought, there will be sons and daughters out there that we would have gladly given everything we had in order to help them, even going into deep debt to pay for lawyers to get them out of prison if necessary. We set aside large sums of money to pay for their education and have concern over them our whole lives and do we then cheer when they are destroyed before our eyes? Since when does the Bible say that we should cheer over the loss of a soul, rather doesn't it say that, "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance (Lk. 15:7 NKJV). The whole reason for the controversy and about 6000 years of pain is for the purpose of saving His creation - not destroying it.

      Jesus shed a lot of tears over many people while on earth. Why would we think that He will be joyful having to destroy those same people at the end of the thousand years and why would His followers seeing people for whom He died cheer over their destruction? Yes, I believe there will be a lot of tears in Heaven when we sit in judgment and see why they will be destroyed and how easily they could have been saved. In my opinion, the thousand years will not be comfortable years but years of judgment, of questions, and understanding why things must be the way they are to be.

      Now concerning the problem of introspective considerations, I said that we will be conscious of the role we played in the lives of the condemned. It has been said that our focus will be totally on Jesus and not on ourselves.

      As a general princple I totally agree with what Ellen White said:

      It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {Great Controversy 555.1 (https://egwwritings.org/?ref=en_GC.555.1)}

      In this quote she is referring to 2 Cor 3:18 but notice that she is talking about things which we are "accustomed to love and reverence." I have often used the story of Peter walking on the water to illustrate this but I must be honest, that story is about having faith in Jesus in contrast to letting the world around us cast doubts on our faith and really isn't about having Jesus as an example. Besides, while she says this she also says to examine ourselves:

      The word of God is plain, but often there is an error in applying it to one's self. There is liability to self-deception and to think its warnings and reproofs do not mean me. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Self-flattery may be construed into Christian emotion and zeal. Self-love and confidence may give us assurance that we are right when we are far from meeting the requirements of God's word.
      The Bible is full, clear, and explicit; the character of the true disciple of Christ is marked out with exactness. We must search the Scriptures with humble hearts, trembling at the word of the Lord, if we would not be in any way deceived in regard to our true character. There must be persevering effort to overcome selfishness and self-confidence. Self-examination must be thorough, that there be no danger of self-deception. A little catechizing of self on special occasions is not sufficient. Daily examine the foundation of your hope, and see whether you are indeed in the love of Christ. Deal truly with your own hearts, for you cannot afford to run any risk here. {5 Testimonies 332.1-2 (https://egwwritings.org/?ref=en_5T.332.1)}

      Ellen White's counsel is well balanced. While she is in no way a salvation by works person she also believed in introspective examination, in fact, there is a whole section in the index to her writings devoted to the subject of "self-examination." To say that we are never to look at self in my opinion is a subtle form of fanaticism. Because of this I do feel that we will be considering the role we played here on earth during the 1000 years and how our lives impacted those who are lost. I believe that that will be part of the judgment as we consider why a person is judged by God to be lost and I do believe there will be times when we will not be very happy with our role that we played even though we will be aware that our sins are fully forgiven. It is the consequences of those sins that don't just disappear, some have an eternal bearing on the finial outcome.

      • Tyler Cluthe, I agree with you that the last tears will be after the Millennium. But I do not think that we will be sad throughout the Millennium. It will be the honeymoon of Christ with us, His Bride. He will make sure that we are happy with Him. After the Millennium we will experience the loss of our beloved, so will God. And then there will be a lot of tears. Then God will wipe all of them.

    • If "utopia" means "a perfect social and legal system", we will have that in heaven from the beginning of the 1000 years. Our perfect God will be ruling and all His subjects will be those who have already been made ready to dwell in a perfect place in perfect harmony. But if "utopia" means the fulfillment of Revelation 21:4, including no more tears, then we will have to wait until the new creation.
      Perhaps thinking of a spectrum of possibilities would help. Even here on this earth, God is working to make His church a reflection of Himself. So, to the degree that we reflect Him, we also reflect the perfection of heaven, and to that degree the kingdom of heaven has already begun. Even with all the problems in the church, I already see that life in the church is better than life out in the world. But God wants us to come to a unity that is a reflection of the unity between the Father and the Son. John 17: 20-21. (That's the experience that will be prime evidence before the world of the reality of God's grace through Jesus.) But the perfecting of the church on earth is only one step in the restoration of Eden. The millenial kingdom in heaven is another phase. The new earth is yet another phase. But even then we expect to continue though all eternity to learn and grow in our appreciation of the works of our Creator and Savior. In that respect, "utopia" will eternally be getting sweeter.

  2. Yes,I agree with your point Tyler,but on ther you need to remember that those taken to heaven for millenium rest,though recrimination shall be the order of the day,will be the salved people. So it will be the utopia in mind and when we will finally setle on new earth it will fully be established 4ever

  3. But God "will wipe away ALL tears" and once He does that, then Utopia begins....there won't be lamenting like there is on earth for loved ones lost, because if there is, it wouldn't be heaven.

  4. Wonderful discussion brethren, it brings out the beauty of our lesson. I am learning a lot how to understand the real meaning of the scripture and how to balance my understanding between each other's points. The discussions in ssnet brings me to the school of Christ where Jesus reasons and expands the meaning of the scripture for the people like me, may learn to know Him more.

  5. In the millennium the saints will reign with Christ as heirs to the throne. Will make judgement even to the fallen angels. What honor so overwhelming is awaiting us! Let every one of us not miss this.

  6. utopia guys begins after one thousand years,when the old heavens and earth passed away.there God will dwel with his own vs3.

  7. I personally think the millenium will be somewhat bittersweet. Upon Christ arrival to take us home, we will feel overwhelming joy and happiness at finally being in His presence. Then as we look upon those that are there with us and those who did not make that journey, I can't help but imagine the profound sadness we will feel for the lost. We will weep and mourn for those that rejected God's love. And then, once settled in our own minds the fair and perfect judgments of God, we can then find peace in those judgments and praise and worship our God for eternity.

  8. These things I live to the Lord, He can not save us and still we remain in misery (in pain over our loved ones).. "God shall wipe away all tear, there shall be no pain..."
    We may have memories of this world and our perished loved ones, but that will be the reason for the 1000yrs to "Judge God" and understand why others are not found in heaven...

    • Hello MK. How are we to judge God? From His own books? Would we attempt to judge Satan from his own books? Does it make sense? Are we going to make any decisions that relate to the ones being under judgement? Are we going to execute these decisions? If not, how can this be a judgement? Where did you find the idea that we will need to find out why others are not in heaven?

      • Hello cezaryn, I believe your personal idea of "judgment" is too narrow.

        Whenever we choose to believe one person over another, we are making a "judgment." The controversy in the universe has been over the character of God. Satan has misrepresented Him as being self-serving, as he is. Examining the history of this planet and God's intervention to save all who wish to be saved will make very clear that the essence of God's character is self-renouncing love, and that the essence of Satan's character is total selfishness - which is the accusation that he has leveled at God.

        Paul quotes the Psalmist in addressing God when he writes, “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” (Romans 3:4) So the concept of God being "judged" is an old one. The final verdict is expressed in Rev. 5:13:

        And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

        “Blessing and honor and glory and power
        Be to Him who sits on the throne,
        And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

        Note that every creature confesses this, and that includes the wicked. That fact is also referred to in Romans 14:11:

        For it is written:
        “As I live, says the Lord,
        Every knee shall bow to Me,
        And every tongue shall confess to God.”

  9. I find that this picture you are painting is too gloomy for the heaven I read of in the bible. Remember we will be transformed and God will wipe away all our sorrows and tears and pain......it will be time of joy and praise.

    • Jocelyn, This is the picture the Bible paints of heaven. God will wipe the tears from our eyes so it will not be gloomy anymore. We will be satisfied that everyone has made their own choice. But there will be tears in heaven, otherwise God would not have to wipe them away.

  10. God will wipe away tears
    tears cme out as a result of cryin thus thoz who will be in heaven would hv come out of gret tribulation.if you dont meet Satan on ur life's journy u r trvaling in the same direction and if you meet him he'll coz tears to flow.these are the tears wch God will wipe?

  11. Thank you people for stimulating discussion here. I am not yet settled in my mind to embrace that God still will have to wipe away our tear from our eyes.According to Revelation 21:4,there will be NO more death, sorrow, crying and pain for the former things have passed away. 1 Corin. 15: 52 states, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, we shall all change. From this time, the former is passed away and we put on the heavenly body. That heavenly body we will have put on does not account for crying because corruption has put on incorruption and mortal put on immortality (1 Corin. 15:53).
    When it is said that God will still wipe away our tear in heaven, are we advocating to nulify the change that will take place at the last trumpet according to 1 Corin. 15:52? What does the text Rev. 21:4 mean when it says, He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”?

    • Nickson Waiyo, there will be tears after the Millennium when all the saved ones will come to the earth and will experience the greatest funeral ever. There will be many people whom we love, who will have to be annihilated. We will be given new bodies, but we will not be robots without any feelings. We will cry. Then, and only then, God will wipe out tears forever.

  12. Nickson Waiyo, I agree with you completely. However, I love the discussions between all who write into this column. Always read them and they are thought provoking and very stimulating to my brain which I need, You all make me return to the bible to do more reading. THANKS

  13. Hello everybody, I have enjoyed your conversation a lot. However I just thought about Job who had many many questions in his heart when he lost all that he had. But look, what happened after he recovered??? To this end I believe so many things are still closed unto us. But one thing I know is that it is not God's intention to finish human kind but rather to finish sin. Looking at it from this perspective may also just enlighten our views on the things to come during the millennium.

  14. I think that the current investigative phase of the judgement is for all unfallen beings to come to full understanding that God's mercy in saving the righteous is also just. Then isn't the millennium when the righteous are given thrones to "judge" a time for them to much more fully understand how much pain God has experienced from sin since its very beginning and perhaps for Him into all eternity, the final destruction of sin and sinners it's apex. The good news is that He only bears all of that pain through the blood and transformed scars of Jesus so that they only are reminders of how sin transformed becomes something to sing about rather than cry over.


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