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The End Time and Conspiracy Theories — 104 Comments

  1. I am not commenting much on the end time and conspiracy theories but as Christians, we all have to focus our attention to Jesus - nothing else! He is the one who gave His life for us - no one else! Any conspiracy theories will lead us out from Jesus.
    As we are living in this last days, if there is anything to do - READ OUR BIBLE and trust its content.

    May our good God continue to guide and lead us to right path!

    Amen!(7)
  2. A brief note for those who have commented on my blog post:

    This article was written to point sincere searchers of truth in the right direction. It is not written to "convert" those who have already made up their minds (quite frankly an impossibility). I have no time nor will to debate someone over Dr Veith. The point of the article is not Dr Veith. I was very clear that I have nothing against him as a person. Conspiracy theorizing is much larger than one man or ministry. But those who are enamored with conspiracy theories will not consider the positive aspects of this article but will hinge on that which prods their personal icon - in this case it is Dr Veith.

    This article was also written as an informative piece on SDA conspiracy culture.

    There is a difference between name calling and reporting. Name calling takes place when I attach someone's name to an activity or ideology when they themselves are not clear on the topic. Mentioning Veith as a conspiracy theory promoter is not name calling. It is reporting, since his promulgation of conspiracy theories is clear and he does not deny such activity. Of course, if the entire article was an attack against Dr Veith it could still fall under the category of name calling, but he is briefly mentioned only as an obvious example. Having his name in an article about conspiracy theorizing is no different from having Stephen Bohr's or Doug Batchelor's name in an article about women's ordination.

    (My internet access is very limited at the moment. I have to write this response offline then quickly hop online to send it before I go offline again.)

    Amen!(6)
    • Marcos, I believe the correct term to use concerning many who cling to conspiracy theories is idolatry. I have met several people like that in the past and there are times when it is very difficult to get them to talk about anything else including Christ. To me it is almost an addiction so thank you for bringing the problem to view in spite of all the negative response.

      Amen!(3)
  3. There has been much talk about the three angels message. I concur that they must be fully comprehended and understood by those who espouse them. However, I have seen no mention of the Elijah message. This is the message that John the Baptist proclaimed before the coming of the Messiah. My question is this; isn't this message meant to be given again. Don't God's servants have a responsibility to clear the pathway, to level out the mountains, and fill the valleys and make straight the way so that people can hear the word in its simplicity and easily understand it. This being the case that doesn't leave a great deal of room for conspiracies

    Amen!(1)
  4. God's Word contains our subject matter, and this we should hold forth with the authority given through the power of the Holy Spirit. IF we lack the Spirit there is reason and we are not left without knowing it.

    Concerning the exposure of wickedness, the Bible focuses on one power that would arise and deceive all who's names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. This seems a great subject for presenting: The Lamb, and His book of Life. If we get this across, the battle is won! Yes, the powers of darkness are given enough detail to expose them to any who need that information, but the only remedy is found in following the Lamb of God wherever He leads. This should be the focus of our public efforts since this is the focus of scripture starting in Genesis 3:15.

    We can be busy serving Christ or busy chasing the devil. Which will it be?

    Amen!(7)
  5. Sadly people are inclined to believe in conspiracy theories do so because there have been so many lies and cover-ups, and there are secret societies. There are many links. I like to be informed and I believe that Satan has worked through many channels and people to bring about his intended goal of destroying God's people. I think the danger lies in trying to make the newspaper headlines fit prophecy. God gave us enough so that we would know the "season" and not be deceived. The most reliable approach is to study and know the Scriptures and pray for discernment. IF we are the last generation (and someone has to be) we need to pray that we are not among the deceived and have the strength to go through whatever comes. It does not serve us well to be ignorant either or Jesus would not have taken His time to inform the disciples for our sake.

    Amen!(5)
  6. A Message to Our Readers

    We have not published a number of comments under this post because they focused largely on Walter Veith, rather than the subject of this post. Instead, we have given individuals the opportunity to revise their comment by sending them this message:

    We appreciate your taking the time to respond to an essay on our blog. Please understand that, as much as possible, we try to ensure that the conversation stays on topic. In this case, the topic is "The End Time and Conspiracy Theories."

    Unfortunately, the conversation has degenerated in being mainly about Walter Veith. This has the tendency to take attention off the main topic. Marcos Torres mentioned Dr Veith in passing regarding conspiracy theories because he appears to be the main proponent of such theories in Adventism. Such theories did not begin with him. Some of us have known of variations of such theories for 50 years or so. But right now, he seems to be the main standard bearer. Not even Dr Veith himself would deny that he has focused quite a bit on conspiracies. Pastor Torres's emphasis was in 7 points:

    1. Conspiracy theories distract from Jesus.
    2. Conspiracy theories generate a spirit of fear and anxiety.
    3. Conspiracy theories generate a spirit of distrust.
    4. Conspiracy theories damage our character and our witness.
    5. Not everything is the result of a conspiracy
    6. What’s different between studying and conspiracy theories?
    7. Focus on Jesus instead.

    And we would like to repeat that appeal: Focus on Jesus instead.

    We do welcome your comments on this post, but please address the points made by Pastor Marcos, and do not just say that Marcos is good or bad or that Dr Veith is wonderful or bad. In fact, posts addressed to persons rather than issues are generally against our rules.

    Additionally, comments saying essentially the same thing as comments made previously do not contribute to the conversation. Instead, please feel free to "Like" the previous comment.

    In light of this, we would like to give you an opportunity to revise your comment in line with the points made by the author. Thus we are not publishing this particular comment at this time.

    Anyone is still welcome to comment on this topic, but please do not focus your comment on Dr. Veith. That he lectures on conspiracies not even he would dispute. So please don't tell us that mentioning Dr. Veith in connection with conspiracy theories is unfair. No one questions Dr. Veith's character or sincerity. The post was a warning against focusing on conspiracy theories. So please address your comment to the points Pastor Marcos made.

    If you have experience with conspiracy theories in your life or in your church, your comment could be especially helpful under this post.

    Amen!(3)
  7. This message is evil. Demons exist. The Devil exist. Satan and his angels never rest, we are to be watchful. If knowing what satan is doing brings you "fear" then you are not close enough to God.
    This message is from the devil, he would like nothing more that for us to ignore what he's doing.
    Are people really naive enough to think the devil doesn't spend his time conspiring?
    In war you study the enemies tactics, you learn what the enemy is doing, so you can defend your side, it's the same here. This is a war, if you don't believe that satan and his angels are at war against Gods followers then you are not only blind, but lost.
    Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    Amen!(2)
    • Dear Bryan,

      The author of the post does not deny that Satan exists and that he is busy. He is, however, suggesting that focusing on the work of the devil - whether real or imagined - is not the work Christ gave us to do. Christ defeated Satan through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the only way we can defeat Satan in our lives is by nurturing a close connection with Jesus Christ.

      The idea what we can be saved by knowing everything the devil is up to is actually a form of neo-gnosticism, because gnosticism teaches we are saved by knowledge. This is a heresy. We are only saved by Jesus Christ.

      Yes we are involved in a war - the war between Christ and Satan. And that is precisely why we should not spend time focusing on Satan, because we become like the object of our focus. The weapons of our war are found in bringing every thought in captivity to Christ (2 Cor 10:4-6). Our real war is against Satan's inroads in our own hearts - not against conspiracies in the world.

      And this is our armor/protection against the attacks of Satan:

      take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

      14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit ... (Eph. 6:13-18)

      Amen!(4)
    • Jesus says; "Come unto me...and learn of me." When the disciples spoke of the devils Jesus said; "I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven." Jesus was telling them not to give the devil any concern for he was defeated. Finished. He told them to rejoice in their salvation through the Lamb of God. They were sent to preach the gospel of the Kingdom, not the sophistries of Satan. We don't need to know the enemy, we need only know Christ and the truth as defined by His life, and the enemy will flee from us. It is knowing the Truth that sets sinners free, not knowledge of a liar and murderer.

      Satan is finished and knows it.

      Amen!(4)
  8. In our towns nowadays, anybody who become wealthier or popular very fast is seen as a mason member. People turn conspiracy into reality and tag membership to anyone who is successful, and this is done by church members. It turns faith into fear and in this part of the world where ignorance reign the impact is fatal.

    Amen!(2)
  9. I have been a member of the SDA Church for over 40 years and I am privileged to be a son of God and proud to be a SDA. English is not my mother tongue so please pardon me if I fail to express my opinions clearly.
    Our Church has always taken pride in asking its members to study the Biblical truths diligently for themselves, and build our own faith solidly on the Rock of Jesus. Therefore this constant and never ending search for more Present Truths is deeply ingrained into our collective psyche of the SDA family. Examples being the interpretation of the 2300 days prophecy and the last days events including the mark of the beast before our Savior returns. These are our unique truths / doctrines not so welcomed by other denominations even though they read the same bible.
    The downside of studying and searching for more truths is that we can be a victim of our own culture as some in their search for truths may face the danger of going overboard or misunderstanding the texts or embracing some fancy conspiracy theories at the expense of losing sight of our dear Savior. But this is something inherent in our system, because we do not spoon feed our members and order them to just sit quietly and obey.
    Now my main point: those who are new members should only receive spiritual milk. conspiracy theories are too strong for them to handle, they might get poisoned by them. However, those who have been in the Church for some years and have solid relationship with Jesus, can delve into such study of conspiracy theories from our own ranks, provided, of course, that they do not lose sight of the joy and happiness that can only be found in our blessed Savior.
    My final point is that I have been blessed by WV's ministry, and I firmly believe that he is an instrument used by the Almighty to reach people who otherwise may never be touched by traditional conservative SDA evangelists. So don't write him off just like that, otherwise there are people who would feel deeply offended, myself included.

    Amen!(7)
    • Dear Monty,

      Thank you for your comment. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply.

      We are not "writing off" any person or any preacher. However, we are expressing our strong opposition to the promotion of conspiracies whether factual or not. Unfortunately the most dangerous promotion of conspiracy theories come from those who mix conspiracies with legitimate prophecies. This has done major damage to our evangelism outreach as some of this conspiracy thinking has been exposed in the media, such as the publicity surrounding Angus T. Jones's conversion to Adventism and his repeating the conspiracy talk of his mentor, Christopher Hudson. The world spent some time laughing at Seventh-day Adventists, because it looked as though these were Adventist teachings.

      You seem to believe that conspiracies are for mature Adventists to study, and that's what brings us back to the topic under discussion. Could you please share what value such conspiracies add to our relationship with Jesus and to our spreading the gospel of the kingdom - keeping in mind that, by definition, conspiracies are hard to prove conclusively? Keep in mind also what Ellen White said about dealing with various theories.

      Should we not focus on promoting Christ, rather than conspiracies, in these end times when His coming is right at the door? Will conspiracies prepare people for Christ? Consider that by beholding we become changed into the image of what we behold. Should we therefore focus on the deeds and character of Satan or on the deeds and character of Jesus?

      There were most certainly genuine conspiracies at the time of Christ. Barabbas was one conspirator who was caught. Do you find any evidence that Jesus ever spoke of conspiracies? To whom shall we look as our example - Christ or Barabbas?

      Amen!(4)
  10. I applaud Marcos David Torres’ article and Inge Anderson’s comments for their focus to really expose Conspiracy Theorising for what it really is: wild outlandish speculation with no foothold in reality. The limits to this kind of speculation are only as far as your mind can fantasise. I would go further than Torres’ article which is still willing to give Conspiracy Theorising an air of respectability – I say it is an unhealthy, self-delusional, superstitious, and dangerously deceptive way of thinking. It is the modern day equivalent of old folk superstitions and mythologizing dressed up with modern garb. Superstitions and myths are not based on evidence but fear, speculation, hearsay, in the same way that Conspiracy Theorising does. That’s why I say that it is the modern day equivalence.

    I used to be a person who held conspiracies by the likes of Bill Hughes and [name redacted] in high esteem – I watched [name redacted]’s entire Total Onslaught series (several times in fact) (as well as other series). I readily accepted their conclusions since I was young and vulnerable with no tools of how to reason clearly, how to survey evidence, how to proceed to a deductive conclusion based on evidence. And now, looking back, after having self-educated myself, I feel betrayed and disgusted by people like [name redacted] who really do more harm than good, regardless of his other seemingly more Christ-focussed lectures, because they delude you into a reality that does not exist, posing as highly educated and exclusive arbiters of truth when in truth they are deluded amateurs.

    Here’s my primary objection against ALL Conspiracy Theorising (which has touched on a lot by others already):
    (1) It does NOT seek TRUTH, but rather PRE-DETERMINES what Truth should be defined as based on a Propagandist Agenda.
    (2) It then proceeds to support that Agenda with SUPERFICIAL, SCANT and even TWISTED INTERPRETATION OF THE EVIDENCE, if they present any serious evidence at all.
    (3) Which then leads to an UNSUBSTANTIATED CONCLUSION that has no real connection with the evidence.

    People of Truth, as Christians claim to be and should be, should be smarter, wiser and more informed than they reveal themselves to be in matters of Conspiracy Theorising. The way to do so is to follow fundamental principles that we can draw from the Bible (of which I will only mention 3):
    (1) The Law of Verification
    (2) The Law of Impartiality and Objectivity
    (3) The Law of Empirical Evidence

    THE LAW OF VERIFICATION: The principle is based on 1 Thessalonians 5:21 which admonishes us to “PROVE All Things.” The Greek word for ‘prove’ is dokimazō (Strong, G1381), which means “to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)” and “to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.” Therefore, what this passage is telling us that you cannot just accept any old theory when it is presented but rather test it. Just as you wouldn’t make any verdict in Court with a lack of evidence or evidence that hasn’t been analysed or that seems spurious, so you shouldn’t merely give a verdict based on someone merely saying it, but be familiar with the facts, verified by credible independent sources.

    THE LAW OF IMPARTIALITY AND OBJECTIVITY: The principle is based on James 3:17 and 1 Timothy 5.21. “The WISDOM FROM ABOVE is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, OPEN TO REASON, full of mercy and good fruits, IMPARTIAL and sincere.” - James 3.17 (ESV). The Greek word for “open to reason” is eupeithēs (Strong, G2138), which means to be good for persuasion, or in other words to be open to persuasion. The Greek word for “impartial” is adiakritos (Strong, G87), which means to be without partiality, in other words unbiased, unprejudiced, fair, objective (Strong’s Definitions).
    “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules WITHOUT PREJUDGING, DOING NOTHING FROM PARTIALITY.” - 1 Timothy 5.21 (ESV) The Greek word for “prejudging” is prokrima (Strong, G4299) which means, ‘an opinion formed before the facts are known; a prejudgment, a prejudice’ (Thayer’s Greek Definitions). The Greek word for “partiality” is prosklisis (Strong, G4346), which means a leaning towards, that is favouritism, bias (Strong’s Greek Dictionary).
    Therefore, the principles given here are admonishing us be OPEN TO PERSUASION, IMPARTIAL, and in all things NOT TO BE PREJUDICE or have PREJUDGMENT BEFORE THE FACTS ARE KNOWN. You wouldn’t use loaded dice that would pre-determine the outcome because that would be cheating. You wouldn’t come into court having already made up your mind before the evidence is presented because you would be considered a juror with a severe lack of good judgment.

    THE LAW OF EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE: This principle is one that we should all be familiar with because it is practised when making a case for any theological position. We use evidence in the form of scriptural verses. But we do not or should not do it the other way around. In other words, ALL CONCLUSIONS MUST BE BASED ON EVIDENCE, NOT EVIDENCE FILTERED BY PRE-DETERMINED CONCLUSIONS. “For he [Apollos the Alexandrian Jew, who was competent [Grk. dunatos, “powerful”] in the Scriptures (v. 24), who taught accurately about Jesus (v. 25), and who spoke boldly in the synagogue (v. 26)] powerfully refuted the Jews in public, SHOWING BY THE SCRIPTURES that the Christ was Jesus.” - Acts 18.28 (ESV). In other words, we should argue for points ‘SHOWING BY THE EVIDENCE.’

    With Conspiracy Theorising ALL these Biblical principles are CONTRAVENED.

    CONSPIRACY THEORY EXAMPLE: THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH CREATED ISLAM

    A great case in point is [name redacted]’s Conspiracy Theory that the Roman Catholic Church created Islam. [Editor's note: This is taught by more than one conspiracy promoter.]

    · VERFICATION PRINCIPLE is contravened because he does not see a need to VERIFY this claim that he has taken from his primary source, Alberto Rivera. He does not consult even one serious historical work of the development of Islam to verify this theory. Nor does he verify his source who happens to be one of the biggest religious fraudsters of all time. I checked Rivera out by obtaining eyewitness testimony, copies of court proceedings of his misuse of people’s money who contributed to his ministry, as well as pastoral letters of the church which he attended that rejected him because of his lies, and all point to him lying about his story of being a Jesuit with inside information.

    IMPARTIALITY PRINCIPLE is contravened because [name redacted] already has PRE-DETERMINED the outcome, which is easily seen since he provides virtually no proper historical EVIDENCE for his theory, is ignorant of the actual debate and discussion on the history of Islam, and yet remains utterly confident that his theory is true simply by symbology (which by the way as mentioned by Inge Anderson is open to interpretation certainly cannot PROVE Islam’s origin from CATHOLICISM).

    EVIDENCE PRINCIPLE is contravened since he provides absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, but only rants on about Free Masonry and Roman Catholicism. I’ve studied the history of Islam, trying to use the best historical authorities and sources from both protagonists and antagonists, and there is absolutely no indication whatsoever of a Catholic origin of Islam. You only need to be aware of some of the historical episodes of the clash between the two (e.g. The Crusades), the differences of fundamental beliefs (e.g. Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism), and various other historical realities (Islam was an Empire that had no need of Catholicism – in fact it was bent on invading Rome, and had done so on one occasion) to realise the implausibility of such a theory.

    (Please note that Conspiracy Theorising is distinct from actual conspiracies – it’s a difference of methodology. Verfiable-Impartial-Evidence-based Methodology can demonstrate if there is a conspiracy or not, depending on the truth. Conspiracy Theorising however pre-determines that a conspiracy is the ONLY conclusion that you must arrive at, or else you are in with the conspirators. It’s a difference of methods or process of deduction.)

    [Name redacted. The points made below fit more than one conspiracy promoter.]

    A word about [Name redacted] since many seem so keen on defending him. I would ask, have you actually checked his conspiracy sources? Have you verified any of the so-called facts that he presents for his conspiracies? Have you investigated any of the topics yourself? I did so on his Papal-Islam Conspiracy theory which is as I’ve said is based on nothing but sheer fantasy.

    The theory that the KJV is the only ‘truthful’ version is also just as farcical. The KJV is an archaic translation which itself is based for the most part on William Tyndale’s translation. And in issues of certain words like ‘synagogay’ and ‘ekklesia’ the Tyndale translation does a better job – the KJV translates ‘ekklesia’ into ‘church’ whilst Tyndale translates it correctly into ‘congregation.’ Veith advocates rejecting the earliest manuscripts we have in Greek and accept those that support his KJV-only position. You don’t just reject manuscripts because they don’t agree with you. You analyse, compare, and deduce but don’t throw out because you just don’t like it. That is entirely subjective. For some reason he thinks that a 1611 translation that lacks all the archaeological and cultural knowledge and manuscript evidence that we have come to accumulate today is far more superior than one that has.

    It also is misleading to say, as some have said, that [Name redacted] has led anyone to Jesus. Sure, anyone can lead people to a version of Jesus made in their own image, but that does not constitute leading to Jesus. Someone also mentioned that they found [Name redacted] to be a humble person. But I found him very proud of his position to be in the so-called ‘know,’ condescendingly commenting on others who didn’t, and labeling Christendom in irresponsible generalisations. I also find him to be dogmatic in his Conspiracy Theory assertions and unrelenting despite the lack of evidence for his conspiracy positions and even insurmountable evidence against one of them that I found. It seems to me that [Name redacted] knows he has a receptive audience among people who already agree, or who might not be as ‘in the know’ as he is, and so are more vulnerable to his teachings.

    CONCLUSION

    Conspiracy Theorising is an unhealthy and brainwashing practice that is unbecoming of Christians and does major damage to one’s frame of mind and character – fanaticism, judgmentalism and self-delusion are the fruits. It breaks straight-forward thought process principles laid out in the Bible, such as Verification, Impartiality and Evidence-based reasoning. It presents speculation as fact, and presents facts as lies. To me, this methodology sounds perfectly in line with Satan’s practice of deception. Therefore, it is my belief that Conspiracy Theorising is not only unhealthy, it’s not only damaging, it is a sin.

    Amen!(5)
  11. Many of my Christian friends spend a lot of time on conspiracy theories, - chem-trails, HARRP, secret societies, vaccines, etc. They often excitably share their compelling discoveries with the intention that others will also watch DVDs and join discussions. Many times I have explained that we already know how the world is going to end, and how the Lord gets us from here to there is not my concern.
    It is sad to see so many people drawn away from the wonderful news of Jesus love, wasting their time examining whatever happens to be the latest conspiracy.
    Please do not spend your precious time on conspiracy theories. Determine, like Paul, to speak only the good news of Jesus.

    Amen!(5)
  12. The challenge of critising those who are preaching the message with results. Inge, could be that there are somethings which you do not know regarding the theories presented by [name redacted] which probably you should study before you label them as false

    Amen!(1)
    • Results? What results? I have seen results of holding forth such theories and none of it was commendable.

      What is our commission? What is our message? Who are we to lift up before sinners? Jesus invites us; "learn of Me..." Why study the mysteries of sinners? Isaiah 55.

      Amen!(3)
  13. Back to the preface of the article.
    The Lord has given me a strong warning not to think like everyone else does. He said,

    ‘Don’t call everything a conspiracy, like they do, and don’t live in dread of what frightens them. Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life. He is the one you should fear. He is the one who should make you tremble.'” – Isaiah 8:11-13

    The Lord has given us through Isaiah a strong warning to refrain from spending time on conspiracy theories. The Lord wants us to focus on Jesus even if we have been Seventh-day-Adventist for 40 years or more. I do believe that by focusing on Jesus are heeding Gods word: “Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life.” That’s all I have to say. I need to get back to Faith in Jesus. James 1:1-2, James 1:19,20, Luke 12:16:21, Hebrews 11:1. Matthew 7:7 Essentially says ask, seek and knock on the door and ye shall have faith in Jesus.
    Have faith in God my friends. Have faith in God.

    Amen!(6)
  14. I never believed in conspiracy theories until I came in contact with conspiracy first-hand. Since then my perspective has changed. I am no longer asleep.

    SDAs have since the founding Millerite movement been classified as "sensationalists." That label has been earned, and is carried on with a fixation by some on primarily negative events.

    The fact is that there is a real battle going on, and it goes back to before God first gave the ten commandments to Moses. It was when Moses saw the character or "goodness" of God that he became radient from having been with God.

    As intelligent creatures, there is nothing wrong with an awareness that people still dance - metaphorically - around the golden calf. God even asked Moses to do something about it.

    There is also nothing wrong with showing people how to have salvation. Moses was willing to sacrifice himself for the people.

    But the original battle in heaven is the same battle today. The character of God is in question. Until our faces shine with the glory and love of God, we will continue to wander in the wilderness.

    I have an idea: let's make a plan to really know God and introduce Him to our friends. Then we can all go home.

    Amen!(1)
  15. P.T. Barnum well knew that many people like to be wowed. When I see the word, "amazing", in advertise for "evangelistic" meetings, I know it will attractive people who want to be amazed--want to hear something that is not widely known--want to think of themselves as having insider information. It is a way to feel superior.

    True evangelism is one beggar showing another beggar--or several--where to find crumbs that fall from the master's table. Beware of anyone who claims to have the whole loaf.

    The advent movement began in the United States at a time when almost all of its citizens were very much aware of the danger to religious liberty that was posed by the papacy. When J.F.K ran for the presidency, my wife's parents--who knew nothing about Seventh-day Adventists--were greatly concerned that his election would lead to a loss of religious liberty in the United States.

    In the nineteenth century, the language employed by some non-adventist preachers with respect to the papacy made the writings of Uriah Smith and Ellen White seem tame by comparison. It was a time when protestants tried to outdo each other in their condemnation of a system they considered inimical to freedom. Some protestants went too far. It was never appropriate to condemn adherents to that system.

    Now the pendulum has swung to the other extreme.

    The language employed by adventists in the nineteenth century IS appropriate for people who are radically protestant in the twenty-first century. But to look for a (Jesuit) "devil under every rock" is off-putting for the vast majority in the United States today.

    Are the Protestant teachings of the sixteenth century or the nineteenth century any less "true" today?

    I don't think so.

    The other side of that coin is that, today, those teachings need an appropriate context. To use the same language and methods in the twenty-first century as were employed by adventists in the nineteenth century is foolish indeed UNLESS OR UNTIL the protestant basis of that language and those methods is adequately understood.

    Failure to take those steps results in some people joining the Seventh-day Adventist denomination because they like thinking of themselves as "in the know" (which explains the ubiquitous we-are-it syndrome).

    At the same time, such language and methods (including appealing to conspiracy theorists) makes several enemies for the truth for each person who joins the denomination AND when the reason to change denominational affiliation is that other denominations are teaching things that are not true, the people who have changed their denominational affiliation for that reason are just as quick to change it again as soon as they realize that a Seventh-day Adventist clergyman has taught a conspiracy theory that was later discredited.

    Amen!(2)
  16. Wikipedia Encyclopedia: A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.

    Maybe someone can explain to me if the books of Daniel and the Revelation fit this definition. Thanks in advance.

    Amen!(1)
    • Daniel and the Revelation are not conspiracy theories, but are God revealing the events that would "shortly come to pass" through His foreknowledge. There is nothing in them that we must guess about. Without God's intervention, Satan could fool everyone, so God gives enough evidence to save us from the deceptions through faith in Him.

      Amen!(2)
    • The problem with conspiracy theories is that they are often complex (often transcontinental) and require you to believe that not only are many seemingly unrelated events related but that these conspiracies are perpetuated to exact precision--without hiccup--by different members of the same group or groups over decades if not hundreds or even thousands of years.

      Real human conspiracies are often limited in scope and effectiveness and probably more likely to fail than not. More importantly they are often limited in time.

      This is just the nature of human beings. They all have minds of their own. What motivates one may not motivate another. Two humans with the same goal may not have the same level of motivation. And if they do, they are likely to disagree with how to get there. Add that to the fact that the worst conspiracy theories suggest complete and exact agreement between vast numbers of shadowy unknown people--often separated by language and culture.
      And then, of course, people don't live forever. They also fall sick.

      This is vastly different to the Great Controversy; which involves non-human beings who have been around for literally God knows how long.
      And even that battle is made up of many smaller conspiracies--which do not always come to fruition.
      The least successful conspiracy of all was the one to prevent the Messiah from coming.

      Amen!(2)
  17. My question is, since you brought up the topic of conspiracy and Dr. Walter Veith, have you ever watched his videos in full? Have you ever listened to his sermons? He is not a conspiracy theorist. It was due to his love for God and the Church (in fact, he's the ONLY one I see these days referencing EGW) that I am even hanging on by a thread to this group of individuals called the SDAs. If you ever doubt what he is teaching, take it step-by-step. He gives you all of the references. I've done it to a lot of his videos. In fact, I already knew some of the ideologies he presents and was quite shocked someone else in this huge realm of confessed Christians actually knew it, too. Please, do not add him into the likes of LeHay and the others. That is not only an insult, but you are taking away the truth he was given and has had the courage to put out to others in this faith that fight to remain asleep.

    Amen!(5)
    • Hi Catherine,

      Some people say that I am old; they even call me a "grumpy old man" now, and they may be right, but don't want to admit it. However, one of the advantages and responsibilities of growing old in the church is that you see a lot of church leaders come and go along the way. I have heard HMS Richards sermons; I listened to George Vanderman in person; I have argued the point with Sam Bacchiocchi; I have watched Doug Bachelor; and I have played Walter Veith videos. All of these folk were great warriors for God and have contributed something to my life and understanding. All of them were human and capable of getting things wrong. (Yes I once told Sam Bacchiocchi that he was quite wrong on a point of research (not the Sabbath though :-)))

      I have learned that even great preachers are human and when it comes to faith matters, I ultimately have to put my faith in Jesus. All of these folk have been instrumental in leading folk to Christ. They have made a valuable contribution to our understanding of our faith but they can and do get things wrong at times, just like we ourselves do.

      We get ourselves into a dangerous position when we rely too heavily on popular leaders. Paul had the same problem when some of the folk in his pastoral care started saying they were for Paul while others were backing Apollos. Paul reminded them to rely on Christ and put their trust in Him. That was sound advice then and it remains true today.

      Amen!(7)
  18. I am blessed by Dr. Veith's sermons on the Genesis Conflict and I think it is the best series of sermons preached on Creation vs Evolution. After watching this series, I was overwhelmed by the impression of how great our God is. I will recommend this series to all people. There are so many atheists out there who need to know that they are of a noble origin from God instead of from a piece of substance.

    For the Total Onslaught series, I agreed with some of it, felt uncomfortable with some of it, and lack the capacity to comment on some of it. But in general, it just makes me more alert of the fact that Satan is the king of this world and he is working hard in everything he can. I am not afraid of the things mentioned in this series because I will not come into contact with those evil things Dr. Veith mentioned in my course of life as a normal average person. I believe most of us posting here would not either. As long as we follow the teachings of the Bible, have the protection of God, those secret dangerous things (conspiracies if you would call them) will not harm us. However, if you have not come across with those things, how can you say that he is making stories up just because you cannot verify them? There may be people out there who can make relevance to those sayings. Let those people who know what he was talking about verify the authenticity of those statements he made.

    We can use whatever tool or resource available to support the teachings of the Bible. Yes, the Bible in itself is perfect because it is from God and can support itself. It will do no harm to make illustrations from lively objects so the audience can see the Bible more relevant to them as long as it does not violate the Bible. I am quite liberal in this aspect that if you think someone says something that is right, go ahead and quote that person's words. If you think that person is off or has gone overboard, do not quote that person.

    We as Adventists are already few in this world, we need to be united on truth, that is the Word of God. Please show love to our fellow Adventists who preach Jesus' soon return. We do not hear people preach a piercing sermon that easily today. This Walter Veith might be weird in somebody's eyes but he surely is one of those who sincerely preaches for the return of Jesus. Ways and techniques may be various, some are moderate, some are edgy, but as long as the goal is kept sincere and simple, I believe God will guide us with His Spirit to discern. There is no need to fight each other fiercely verbally. Jesus told us to love each other so the world knows that we follows Him. What would the world think of us when they see us being so mean to each other? This is so embarrassing.

    Amen!(1)

Please note that this post is about conspiracy theories, not whether or not certain individuals are good or bad people. Please comment on the points made in the post. (Notice particularly the points in bold.)

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