Friday: Further Thought ~ From Confession to Consolation
Further Thought:
Below is the chart explaining how the 70-week prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 ties in with and forms the starting point of the 2,300-year prophecy of Daniel 8:14. If you count 2,300 years from 457 B.C. (remembering to delete the nonexistent zero year), you get 1844; or, if you count the remaining 1,810 years from A.D. 34 (2,300 minus the first 490 years), you come to 1844, as well. Thus, the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel 8:14 can be shown to start in 1844.
Notice, too, how the 1844 date fits with what we saw in Daniel chapters 7 and 8. That is, the judgment in Daniel chapter 7, which is the same thing as the cleansing of the sanctuary in Daniel chapter 8 (see the last two weeks’ lessons), occurs after the 1,260-years of persecution (Dan. 7:25) and yet before the Second Coming of Jesus and the establishment of His eternal kingdom.
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Discussion Questions:
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This week I went on a 9km walk in the Watagans. Apart from the distance, the track was not level. According to my fitness tracker, I climbed and descended about 200m (650ft) twice on the walk. Further, we were attacked the whole way by some of the thirstiest mosquitos I have ever encountered. Not only were they thirsty they were big and numerous. The track was through bush and there were several tracks leading off in different directions that we had to identify and ensure that we made the right decision. There were three things that we had to give us confidence on our walk. The track was part of what we call the Great North Walk, so there were markers every now and then, and we had a phone app with the map on it. Finally, I have mentioned "we". Three of us took the walk together and we would stop and discuss whether we were on the right track. Decisions were made based on those discussions. We made it. Tired and weary we piled into the Troopy for our trip back to our families.
The process of using biblical prophecy as a map is essentially the same. The waymarks and maps are provided but we need the discussion and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to work out the meaning.
This week I have been encouraged by those of you who have commented on the Christ-centeredness of the prophecy we have been studying. It is not about Heaven's geography but about what Christ does for us. What we have to understand is that what is mapped out in time transforms into the timelessness of salvation, available to us throughout Earth's history. Our response should be to live a saved life because that, more than an erudite dissertation of the time prophecy makes convincing sense to those around us.
Yes, the Bible can be a map and a light to show the way we have to go through here in this planet! We can gather all the information and be sure to be in the right track. But still, one question may be more important to us, what is the motive for me and you to decide and follow this map? Is it because we are expecting the prize at the end? A promise of salvation? Eternal and happy life? Ok, all those things are genuine! But are these enough? Has our the desire for obedience to God been mostly based on the reward ahead of us? Or our most precious hope is grounded on the fact that we will finally meet face to face with our Redeemer? The One Who should be the Desire of Ages? The One who is always trying to lead us to the truth and love? May this hope, based on the love of Christ, who gave His life for us, be the most important motive in keeping us on this journey. Even if sometimes we get tired and stressed because of the difficult path. May His light and heat of love quench our hearts so we continue to move on! Thus we can finally get at home!
May I ask, does not most of humanity initially see salvation from a personal/selfish motive? As we mature and become more like our savior, eventually all our selfishness will be transformed into a Godly character...love (1Cor 13:4-7).
Yes, Gary, perhaps you are correct to some extent. However, I like to think that most cases are like mine, in which the core of the initial attraction had to do with the kind of person I could become, by God's grace, combined of course with the fact that such a person could be allowed to live for eternity without messing up the universe. In other words, I think that the attraction of Christ's character must be the decisive factor in our conversion. Otherwise, we are just faking it.
I am busy meditating on the last week of the 70 weeks (490 years) that are "cut off" from the 2300 years.
What happened during this period and what are the implications for the rest of the time until 1844.
Why have I not noticed anyone else comparing the "cleansing of the sanctuary" with the process of names being blotted out of the Book of Life. Only those whose names are in the Book of Life will be allowed into heaven and those whose names are not in the Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire.
The Bible is clear, all our actions are recorded in the "books" of heaven - I believe that is the same as saying people's sins are taken into the Most Holy place because that is God's throne room. So cleansing the sanctuary is the same as blotting out some of the sins - based on the the people accepting Jesus' offer to forgive them.
Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Hello Shirley, may I ask if you would mind defining “...cast into the lake of fire”?, and from 1Cor 13:5, “Love...keeps no record of being wronged.”? (NLT).
Perhaps what is being recorded in heaven is the story of how we respond to the offer of salvation?
What heavenly record-keeping looks like, as well as the destruction of the wicked, when compared to the revelation of the character of God by the Messiah...I am having to rethink what is taught about these and other beliefs that I had come to accept, especially the “cleansing of the sanctuary”.
That love keeps no record of being wronged means that those whose character is like God feel no inclination to nurse their personal grievances. The Bible clearly states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, yet in the event that they finally refuse to repent, this disinclination to their destruction will not prevent God from carrying out the necessary act that is so foreign to His nature.
In the parable of the ungrateful servant, the king freely forgives his servant's ten-thousand-talent debt. Yet, when that servant's harsh treatment of a fellow servant who owes him 100 denarii demonstrates his total unworthiness of having been forgiven, his massive debt is reinstated and full payment is exacted by whatever means necessary, including torment.
When we confess our sins to God, He freely and graciously forgives us the debt that we have incurred. Yet the question still remains as to whether or not we shall stay penitent. If the final, public investigation should reveal that, despite our hypocritical show of religion, we are in fact desperate, impenitent villains, and enemies of everything good, then it will be necessary for the full debt of our sins to be reinstated. And, in order for this to be done, there must still be a record of our sins being kept somewhere. If it is found that we have kept faith with Jesus, staying penitent to the end, and having been transformed by the power of His love, then that record can be forever blotted out.
In short, God's gracious inclinations cannot negate what His infinite love and wisdom may find necessary for the administration of the universe.
Gary, yes 1Cor 13:5 we must not judge others and we must forgive them because the LORD says He will repay Rom 12:19, how? based on His records.
Rev 20:12 the books were opened and they were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. Rev 20:15 anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:9 tells us that fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
John 3:16 shows the options - believe in Jesus and receive eternal life or perish, the Word of the Lord gives examples of how they are consumed.
Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 which Jude 1:7 says is an example of eternal fire. Matt 13:36-43 Jesus says at the end the wicked will be cast into the furnace of fire.
Additional texts for reference: Isa 34:8-10; Ps 11:4-6; Mal 4:1-3; 2Peter 3:5-7,10,12
Additional texts on books in heaven: Ecc 12:14; Matt 12:35-37; 1Cor 4:5; Isa 43:25; Isa 1:18; Acts 3:19; Acts 2:38; Luke 10:20; Ps 139:13-16; Eph 1:4-14; John 3:15-17; 1John 5:11-13; Rev 3:5
Be guided by the Holy Spirit. I am not alone for my father is with me.
#2. What can we learn from Daniel intercessory prayer that can help us in my own prayer life.
After studying the books(scrolls) Daniel realized they were in their predicament because they have committed great sins against God. Daniel focus was not on the other nations and how bad they were, he was not looking at the sins of the Babylonians.
Daniel was looking at the sins of his people. The first thing he did was to acknowledge his sins and the sins of his people. Prophets after prophets warned them about coming destruction if they don’t repent and turn from the their wicked ways, but to no avail.
We, I, have to first acknowledge we have sin against God, I should confess my sins, then ask for pardon. After I should forsake them and look to Christ for the power to help me live above sin. Rom 12:1-2 I should die daily as I present my body a living sacrifice.
I can understand prophecy, yet if I live in sin daily, prophecy does nothing for me but become head knowledge and not heart knowledge.
I am 37 years old. I have been studying the same material of prophetic times and dates and meanwhile I see a church that is dying left and right. Church is just a place we congreagate and go home after that with no meaningful life lessons learned or heart warming friendships or real connections made. Where is the love? Dates, times, meetings, plans but no love. again I say where is the Love? No wonder we are failing to attract young people because we are failing in making real human connections based on genuine love and acceptance. Ask yourself the question, when was the last time you invited a stranger for dinner at your house instead of your friends? When was the last time you opted to go visit the sick or help the poor among church members and not your own friends or close family? I could go on. My point is, the dates we know, the times we understand but the love, we got a long way to go. I believe if we truly love God and Love our fellow man, we will not sin. Therefore Love is the answer we need to ignite the church on fire so that the Spirit of God will be welcome among us.
Hi Tired Youth, One thing that I have learned is that you cannot stereotype churches. I worked for the church for over 40 years and have seen the best and worst of Christianity. I have seen rigid cold legalism, kind compassion, empathy, hatred, racism, and selfless sacrifice. It is heartwarming to see the good things, and gut-wrenching to see the bad things.
In our Sabbath School this morning we had a great discussion about dates and times, but in our class we had people dying of cancer, some who are gender challenged, a recently divorced person, a young person struggling with peer pressure, and some old folk fading into dementia. Nobody forced them to come, nobody asked them why they were in class, We joined in and had a great discussion. (except me. I forgot to wear my hearing aids and half of the conversation flew past me - but that was my fault and while I can blame my wife, Carmel, for not reminding me, I know its best not too!) There is a spirit of love and acceptance in the class that keeps us coming back. And another thing about our class; the only stupid question is the one that is not asked.
If you don't have a Sabbath School class like mine, why don't you start one? You might just start the fire!
Be my guide Holy Spirit. I am not alone for my father is with me.
By now everyone know my past life. Being an immigrant I move from countries to country. In my present country I had many culture shock. But looking back I don’t know why I was surprised. I, went back to the scriptures and read that the wheat and the tares will grow together, the goat and the sheep will be together until the Lord comes.
But I tried not to instill my old culture on no one. I have seen a lot. One of such is the deep division of the churches due to the color of your skin. Some churches are rich and wealthy while others are struggling to have the basic necessities. Many times it’s not that people are lazy and doesn’t want to work, many others factors are involved.
Brethren the devil will rip us apart if we do not forsake our sins and follow after righteousness. As you mentioned, the church needs a deep revival and reformation. Starting from the leaders down to the last person, one as mentioned in Joel 2:15-17. A revival of true godliness. Keep studying the word, we are nearing home and Satan is working more to capture people’s minds.
I'm so sorry Tired Youth that this is your experience. Truly the Word (including the dates and times that point to Jesus) must change us. Indeed, just like the church in both OT and NT times there are tares in the church, (not for us to identify) but there are still wheat. YAY! You'll see the beautiful wheat loving, accepting, teaching, reaching, visiting. They are there but if only a few please dear friend help lead the way for more wheat to spring up by your heart of love and your influence. We all have influence whether introverted or extraverted. The Word is Love and as we all grow to know it/rather Him that it testifies of, we will live it, rather, HIS life : ) more and more.
God told Daniel where to start the Seventy Week Prophecy. But there is nothing there saying that the 2,300 day one was to start also at the same time. So where do we get the idea that God wanted us to start that prophecy also at the same time? Starting the 2300 day prophecy at the same time throws off the symbolism all together. The blood of Jesus was spilled at Calvary not in 1844!!!!!!
A time prophecy without a starting point would be rather meaningless, I am inclined to think. Daniel does not understand the 2,300-day prophecy, and he is extremely distressed by it. When Gabriel shows up, in chapter 9, he immediately states that he has come to give Daniel understanding. The first thing he says is that 70 weeks have been "determined" (literally translated "cut off") for Daniel's people, the Jews. So this is where we get the idea for counting the 2,300 days from the same starting point.
Chapter 7 depicts a final judgment that separates the saints from the hypocrites, so that the former can finally be rescued from the latter, and receive the kingdom at last, in union with Christ. Chapters 8 and 9 give us the starting point for this public investigation -- 1844. When, in the course of this process, Jesus pleads the merits of His blood on behalf of those who are found to be sincere Christians, this becomes the final application of the precious blood that He had shed at Calvary, a couple of thousand years earlier. The symbolism of the Day of Atonement is perfectly fulfilled.
Amen! You are very right! A time prophecy has to have a starting point. But "The Symbolism" has to also fit for the 2300 years for "The Cleansing of the Sanctuary." Chapter 16 of Leviticus is very clear that it is: The "The Lord's Goat" and the sprinkling of its blood with the finger of The High Priest in the Holy of Holies of the Sanctuary at the Mercy Seat once a year at the feast of "The Day of Atonement," that cleanses the Sanctuary. According to Romans 5:11 this happened at Calvary and at Jesus' ascension after His resurrection and on into Heaven. So that prophecy has to end then for the symbolism to fit and for Paul to be able to say that in Jesus "...we have now received the atonement." If we end that prophecy as per its symbolism of Jesus spilling His blood at Calvary and go 2300 years back, it takes us to about 30 plus or minus years before the call of Abraham. Melchizedek was probably instituted then as the only King and Priest of God (probably Jesus in Human form.) Chapters 5-7 of the book of Hebrews seems quite clear that Jesus was and is Melchizedek---High Priest, King, and Sacrifice for the cleansing of Heaven itself and the entire universe.
If I am understanding you correctly, the one detail of the 1844 investigation that doesn't seem to fit the symbolic service of the Day of Atonement is the fact that animal sacrifices were specified for that day, whereas Jesus was sacrificed on the cross much earlier, and not in 1844. In fact, ancient Israel was commanded to come together three times a year for the seven annual feasts, nearly all of which had animal sacrifices specified for them. Does this mean that such feasts as the Day of Pentecost and the Feast of Tabernacles must already have met their specific fulfillment at the cross of Calvary? I hope we can all agree that the Day of Pentecost (the Feast of Weeks) did not meet its fulfillment until some seven weeks after Calvary. So what's up?
To my mind, the answer is found in Hebrews 7, where the writer (traditionally thought to be Paul) is contrasting the ceremonial system of types and shadows with its fulfillment in Christ. Verses 26 and 27 make the point that the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ was made "once for all," in contrast with the frequent animal sacrifices required in the typical system. In other words, that part of the symbolism isn't even supposed to fit precisely.
It is true that the 1844 judgment entails a careful examination of every case. Then again, if every professing Christian were allowed into heaven, no matter how wicked in life and character, who would really want to go there?
EGW says very clearly that we are not to speculate on any subject that is not "clearly stated in the Bible." I see absolutely nothing that is clearly stated that there is any "Investigative Judgement" starting any time. Even Jesus Himself said that He judged no man and then said the same thing about His Father not judging any man (John 5:22 and 8:15.) And in John 16:11 Jesus clearly mentions a judgement starting but this judgement is of satan via His Holy Spirit.
Hello, Pete. If you do not personally see the pre-advent judgment clearly taught in the Bible, you are certainly welcome to say so. However, it is not right for you to invoke the name of Ellen White in support of your position, seeing that her own position was obviously quite the opposite.
I have developed my understanding from the Bible, and it is confirmed by the Chapter 28 pg 480 of the Great Controversy. I suggest you read the whole chapter but here are two extracts confirming EG White's understanding of the pre-advent investigative judgement.
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out “when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ.” Acts 3:19,20. When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be. Matt 16:27. GC485.2
At the time appointed for the judgment—the close of the 2300 days, in 1844—began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged “out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” GC 486.1
“A time prophecy without a time is meaningless.”
This illustrates that an assumption is being made that because a prophecy contains a figure, the purpose of the figure is to enable literal calculation of the prophecy’s dates.
What if that assumption is not the case?
The culture of the Bible did not relate to numbers or 'numberness' the way we do in our modern world. I would propose that this is an important factor that is frequently overlooked and in doing so has created and continues to create problems via misdirecting focus.
Keep in mind that the religious leaders of Jesus day similarly prided themselves on their accurate 'doctrinal' interpretations of the Torah and yet missed the real point/truth of those very scriptures.
And as for the Day of Atonement, I would propose that the Day of Atonement was about teaching (via object lesson) the actual need for and process of actual restoration/repair of the terminal self-seeking-tendency of humanity (initiated by the events of Genesis 3) back to its former non-self-seeking state of Genesis 2 - back to its At-one-ment state. It was not about an annual 'spring clean' of an allegedly contaminated building or about 'paying God off' so that 'justice' was somehow 'served'.
Would someone explain to me the first part of Daniel 9:25. It states that from the decree to rebuilt Jerusalem to the coming of the anoint one , a prince it is seven weeks what anointed one or prince is it taking about ? Not sure I understand it . It is not till after the 70 weeks that I understand that it is talking about our Lord Jesus . Need to know ,please help me understand.
Can anyone give an answer for Thursday’s lesson where the author says TEN YEARS HAVE GONE BY Before Gabriel answers the prayer