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Would Jesus Hang Out With Gay People Too? — 187 Comments

  1. Hi Inge

    I disagree with the analogy. I would compare Homosexuals to prostitutes not Publicans. Whatever Jesus did with Prostitutes, I would do with homosexuals.

    Why ?
    Taxing was a very necessary function. Publicans and Tax collectors only sinned when they abused their power. Publicans were never expected to give up their useful job. They were expected to stop abusing thier job and it's position.

    Yes, Jesus spent time with Mary (Prostitute), Martha and Lazarus. But he never shied from telling her to "Stop Sinning". Also, His disciples clearly understood that Jesus did not approve of prostitution. And Mary was a reformed prostitute, not a rebellious Jezebel.

    Our job is not to just share "Love" our job is to share the "Truth" in Love.
    If someone rejects the Truth, we have to shake the dust off, leave them alone and move on to a more receptive group.

    Another thing to consider...

    We have to know our limits.
    - What if I have homosexual desires ?
    - What if I feel tempted to have sex with prostitutes ?
    - What if my spouse has been starving me sexually for 1 year ?
    - What if I underestimated my own ability to reject sexual temptations ?

    Jesus could easily overcome those weaknesses. Most of us will fail. I, my friends and family might not be able to. After the Death of Jesus, the disciples were not renown for spending intimate time with sinners of Vice. They were reknown for preaching and healing.

    Jesus told us to go and preach the gospel. Putting ourselves in positions where we are weak is not necessary.

    • Thank God Mary was reformed. Did she never do that sin again? Was that gene in her removed immediately? Funny, the Bible does not say that she was instantly reformed, yet she was allowed to preach the resurrection. I certainly hope that being judgmental is as easily overcome as Mary's prostitution.

    • Marcel, you say "Whatever Jesus did with Prostitutes, I would do with homosexuals."

      Very well, then let us look at the way Jesus treated prostitutes. This week, we just happen to have two posts on the topic, one is Monday's lesson, “In the Very Act” and another is a post by William Earnhardt, "They Called Her a Whore. Jesus Called Her a 'Woman.'" (Please consult those posts for more thoughts on how Jesus treated prostitutes.)

      Let's notice a couple of things from our lesson:

      • The religious people, who thought themselves to be righteous accused an adulterous woman or prostitute of sin and worthy of death. Some religious people today do seem to feel the same way about prostitutes.
      • Jesus did not join the accusations. He did not tell her she was a sinner. (She already knew it.) So maybe we should treat gay people the same way?
      • Jesus said that only the ones that were without stone could judge her (by carrying out the verdict of stoning). So we should remember that we cannot judge gay people unless we are without sin.
      • Jesus saved the woman's life, and thus demonstrated that He loved her. So we should demonstrate that we love gay people before presuming to give them any counsel
      • Jesus was qualified to condemn sinners, because He was without sin. But He said, "Neither do I condemn you." So he set an example of non-condemnation.
      • Jesus expressed confidence in her that she could actually "sin no more," without specifying her sin. (Without His encouragement, I suspect she would not have thought it possible that she could go and "sin no more")

      I understand that these were words of hope to her:

      "... those words of hope fell upon her ear, “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” Her heart was melted, and she cast herself at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out her grateful love, and with bitter tears confessing her sins." Desire of Ages, p. 461

      So let's summarize. Is this what you meant by treating gay people as Jesus would treat prostitutes:

      • Do not accuse them of sin.
      • Do not judge them.
      • Demonstrate love to them in a tangible way.
      • Do not condemn them.
      • Express hope that they can live a life pleasing to God.

      Is that what you mean? Is that what the folks who "liked" your comment mean?
      That's what the Bible seems to tell us

      • Amene Inge,

        I have a sister and niece who are both gay. As Jesus came to heal and save the lost, nor did He condemn, we as a family, do likewise to embrace our loved ones exactly as He showed through His example as told to us in His Word, the Holy Scriptures. Your summary above encapsulates how Jesus would "love" my sister and niece, exactly how we also love them. God Bless. ulalei

        • The reality of homosexuality existed during the biblical times - when the two angles visited Lot -and the men were demanding Lot to bring them out -/ and we know the rest of the story - they became blind and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with 3 survivors . I have distant relatives, husbands family members , friends who are homosexual , and most of them are the nicest , kind people- deep in my inner thoughts - I wish their minds will open up , feel the authenticity of Jesus ‘ love and accept His teachings , will ask His help for transformation- I have known homosexuals - who really deeply wanted to change , repented their sins , now married with children .

      • Let's understand the difference between "religious" people and "righteous" people. They aren't always the same, and they usually make it known themselves.

        Righteous is to be like "The Right One", who Jesus represented perfectly, and He offers the power for anyone else to do the same.

        God sees sin as the problem and is not as focused on "sins" as religious (but not righteous) people might be. A religious sinner will always be looking for ways to feel better about themselves by finding people worse than they are, and point it out.(Luke 18:11) I think it's also clear that the men accusing the adulteress were really not interested in her case, but were looking to accuse the Righteous One who made them uncomfortable about themselves. They left her behind because the Truth made them feel even worse about themselves. They felt exposed by Jesus, and rightly so. Jesus came for one purpose, to save the lost, which means to call sinners to repentance. His life alone condemned sin (without focusing on "sins"), but He was full of encouraging (but not enabling) words for the sin-sick soul.

        So, in reply to "would Jesus hang out with gay people?", the answer is that Jesus was were sinners were, to call them to repentance. (Mark 1:14, Luke 5:32) And notice how He does it! The righteous will do the same and hopefully the "religious" will repent, be made whole, and do the same as well.

        It is religious sinners who divide other sinners into classes, not God. (Yes...some sins are more grievous to God and should be, but in His effort to save souls He has no favorites.(Acts 10:34)

      • ... ???? When someone is living in sin, we are to accept the sin and embrace them in their sin???????

        I notice that when "Christians" have loved ones in the "gay life," they are willing to accept this perverted lifestyle as OK. This is not what the Bible is saying.

        • Dear Sharon,

          The reality of my family situation with two dearly loved ones who are gay, we love our loved ones but hate the sin as Jesus did who died on the Cross for them. Because of sin, Jesus was the only One that could die for the sinner to set them free from the condemnation of death.

          There was a whole range of emotions that flooded our senses when we found out there are members of the family who were "gay". One of was which was "out casting" them. But eventually with the love of Jesus, following His example, the power of the Holy Spirit and through prayer and plain old-fashioned embracing them in love, changes have begun to come about in their loves.

          By continuing to accept them as our loved ones, in spite of their sexual orientation, we certainly do not accept or condone "the" sin, but as Jesus would and does, we LOVE the "sinner". I am certain it is the same for many others, in a similar situation, irrespective of what the sin is.
          God bless

      • Inge,
        Thank you to you and your team for this opportunity for many to come out of their own various types of closets. It has been informative, disturbing, and valuable. Growth is informative, disturbing, and valuable. We need more of the tough questions so we can get off the milk and into the vegeburger. It's nice to be like a little child but when we are children too long, then we become stunted in our growth. We need questions like "Why did Jesus have to die?","What is sin?" etc.

    • Marcel, you wrote,

      Our job is not to just share "Love" our job is to share the "Truth" in Love.

      What Truth is there to share that does not have love at its core?

      Jesus told us to go and preach the gospel.

      The very word "gospel" means "good news." And that is what we are to share, as I understand it.

      Is not Jesus our example? Can you find any evidence in the Bible that He told sinners to stop sinning before He loved them, healed them and saved them?

      If we are led by the Holy Spirit, I believe He will put Christ's love in our hearts, and we will know how to love people and what to say and when to say it.

      The way I see it, the great accuser does a pretty good job of telling sinners that they are sinners. God doesn't need us to join him in that job.

      Putting ourselves in positions where we are weak is not necessary.

      That might be a good reminder for those who have come out of a promiscuous lifestyle. At the very least, they should go "two by two," as Christ sent the disciples. That way they can be accountable to God and to each other.

    • The article and references seem to advocate a kind of cuddling of homosexuals, if not the lifestyle, which is hardly observed or promoted for other practicing sinners, who claim no pride in their sinful habits. Would a cheating heterosexual spouse or promiscuous youngster (proud of their status) be accorded the same treatment? Might they produce their own awareness video so we could be more understanding?

      What message does Seventh-gay Adventist send? Do we see the boldness of what is happening here (the idea of alliance or partnership), in the name of love? Could some be buying into a cunning replacement of the Law (symbolized by the Sabbath) by an alternative?

      One of the problems of the Laodicean church is short-sightedness, a failure to see anything wrong with our will. Discernment is not transferrable. This comes from the Holy Spirit. Still we may draw lessons from scripture, spirit of prophecy and church history.

      Small seeds grow bigger (Hosea 8:7).

      “God’s people must strictly guard against every subtle influence that seeks entrance by flattering suggestions from enemies of truth. They are pilgrims and strangers in this world. It is not the open and declared enemies of the cause of God whom we should fear the most. Those who come with smooth words and appealing speeches, apparently seeking friendly alliance with God’s children, have greater power to deceive. Every Christian should be on the alert, not to be taken by surprise by some concealed and masterly snare. The Lord requires a vigilance that never relaxes.” (EGW Royalty and Ruin p. 200)

      Ideas of evolution did not suddenly appear in the SDA church. One thing leads to another. The door opens to the seemingly innocent and then a course is taken which leads not to Heaven, but the other place.

      Here is a reminder to re-examine what we believe and how it affects other things (the connectedness of ideas). Eye salve is indispensable in this. The Holy Spirit has adequate supply (Revelation 3:18).

    • When Mary poured perfume on Jesus' feet, according to the bible, Jesus had already forgiven and driven out the demons that made her have that life for seven occasions. Jesus always forgave her, treated her with love, but never failed to say: - "Go and sin no more".

    • Hi Marcel! God bless you!

      When the Jews speak of prostitutes and tax collectors it is with disgust and revulsion. They were the same in their minds. Non-human and deserving of hell. And the tax collectors were looked as betrayers of their own country and religion. Whether there was abuse with money or not, it didn't matter. They worked for (aligned with) the Hedonistic Oppressive Abusive Caesar (Roman GOD on earth) and his henchmen. The Jews bristled under their IRON THUMB! Oh how they hated the tax collectors! They felt betrayed, and that carried over to believing GOD is betrayed (being they were the TRUE NATION/ CHURCH). And the tax collectors chose to be tax collectors when most of the prostitutes were forced into it to survive in a culture where you are nothing without a husband.

      The worst condemnation they could think to call JESUS is a FRIEND of SINNERS!!! Matt 11:19. I am sure bile rose to their throats. Friend of All sinners, Marcel - the gay sinners and the straight sinners!

      When the ten lepers came to JESUS to be healed they were all healed, right?
      But only one came back! Acknowledged JESUS! and JESUS said something. And let me share with you what GOD is like in all this. JESUS didn't take away the healing of the other nine. Many sinners came to JESUS whether they acknowledged their sin or not and GOD still loved on them and healed them. The only stern lecture came to the Religious folks, not the common straight and gay rabble. Gays and straights were healed. Some became saved others did not. GOD is like that!

      And you notice when JESUS told the prostitute to stop sinning HE first gave her the SECRET on how to stop sinning? HE SAID He doesn't condemn her!
      WOW! First came the non-condemnation, then the power to live a new life! What would the church be like if it offered Non-condemnation to the gays so they would see JESUS bending over them? Many gays haven't seen this kind of GOD! Then the 'stop sinning' scriptures and rebukes would be understood and embraced.

      I, as a gay man who became celibate, had to find that loving GOD in the unfortunate mist of Christians who promoted Works (stop sinning) without the Grace (neither do I condemn You!). Dont ever be caught doing that. It's half the Gospel, and it doesn't save!

  2. Thank you for this thought provoking article. I too have asked the same question as I mingle with openly gay & lesbian couples who are my neighbors. They are very warm and caring individuals with completely different lifestyle to mine, yet I do not ever ask them why they choose that lifestyle. I do know that because we were all born in sin we will see these things happening. I have often wondered, could this be considered an illness that they have no control over? If that was the case, there would be a cure. I don't know if I will ever have the answer, but my duty is to love them and meet them where they are just as Christ is doing for me. Let us continue to keep them in prayer.

    • Elaine, thank you for your comment. Among other things you wrote:

      I have often wondered, could this be considered an illness that they have no control over? If that was the case, there would be a cure.

      I think studies have demonstrated for fairly certain that a homosexual orientation is not an illness. As far as we know now, it is generally a combination of at least two (usually more) factors coming together. A common factor is the lack of sufficient androgen wash of the fetus to make the brain male. Thus most gay people have a brain structure that is typical of females. That's why women find them so "nice," and fortunate, indeed, is the woman whose husband has such a brain and can understand her so well, while still being heterosexual. (I think I've known couples like that.)

      But for a baby to develop into a gay person, several environmental factors contribute, and the person has no more control over these than over the pre-natal hormonal wash. In short, for gays and lesbians, it feels like they were "born that way," and there's nothing they can do about it. There is no "cure" for a homosexual orientation.

      However, there is a solution for the hunger for love that leads to seeking love in all the wrong places, as in a promiscuous lifestyle, whether gay or straight. Jesus can satisfy that hunger, but He needs our help. From what I have observed and read, close friendships with heterosexual men are especially helpful for gay men. Close friendships with heterosexual women are especially helpful for lesbians. And I believe it is God's design that we help fill each other's needs. However, in the case of homosexuality, this design is thwarted when straight people are afraid that gay people will fall in love with them and gay people have the same fear.

      When the soul hunger is filled and when unresolved issues in the gay person's life are resolved, they may not be "cured" of homosexuality, but they can live fulfilling lives without their need for sex being uppermost in their minds. And there are many healthy, well-adjusted gay people who live ordinary, yet fulfilling lives. Some are single and don't see singleness as a curse. Others are heterosexually married and realize they have to guard their attraction to their own sex, even though the grass on the other side of the fence looks so much greener.

      I also know of some who are depending on the Lord to send them their same-sex soul mate. Some have been waiting for decades and are still trusting the Lord. Others have resolved their needs in a way not sanctioned in the Bible, as you can see in the movie. But please take them seriously when they say they trust the Lord and are just doing "the best I can." Love them and pray for them and allow the Holy Spirit to lead them in the way He knows best. In the movie one woman says that her homosexuality doesn't seem high on the Lord's priority list regarding her life. Right now He's working on her pride and self-sufficiency. (I suspect a lot of us need to allow the Lord to work on our pride and self-sufficiency, seeing that according to Rev. 3:17, these are the deadly sins of God's last-day church.)

      I believe we need to learn to move out of our comfort zones by the grace and in the love of Christ. His work wasn't always "comfortable" when He walked this planet in person.

      • Thank you for this indepth response. I watched the movie and was grealty touched. It has left me with mixed feelings. I pray that God will help me to be a blessing in their lives

        • What movie are y'all referring to? I smoke, and I don't believe there is a difference in one sin as to another. I am taunted sometimes about it, but no one seems to understand how hard I have tried, and try, to quit. After everything else in my life that God has given me strength to change in me, you wouldn't think that cigarettes would be that big of a deal, but it is!

          If I bombard myself with the sin, it becomes overwhelming, and soon I begin finding myself being tempted with other things that have been ratified. I certainly do not want to go backwards, and find myself thanking God that He has brought me so far! It seems that at that point, I smoke less.

          I don't have to imagine how hard it is to walk away from a relationship, with someone you love, because it's a sinful union. I am not gay, but have had to do that very thing because God did not approve of it.

          We condemn ourselves enough for the sins we are trying to overcome. When we are struggling to overcome, how much better it would be to have our "loving" brothers/sisters come and pray with us, encourage us in letting us know they will not quit praying for us during our battle, instead of continually reminding us of the sins we already know we have!

          Fast and pray for YOURSELF, AND YOUR SINS, and then pray for your bother or sister that is struggling with any sin problem they are battling with..... WHATEVER THAT MAY BE!!
          I also find that whenever I am praying for someone else, and doing something to help them, when they are in need of help, it also helps me!

      • Thanks Inge for some of the biological explanations. This topic has raised so many questions for me in regards to how we should treat others. One of my best friend's daughters came out as lesbian and the girl is a police officer. My friend has been a Bible believing Christian longer than I have and I am sure it was hard to be the mother in this situation. Then I thought, "what if that was my daughter"? I gained a compassion I didn't have when I learned about my friend's experience and that compassion continues to grow as I am exposed to gay/lesbian people in my life.

  3. God is good all the times!!!!
    He loves everyone,He loves sinners BUT He hates the sin.
    God loves Gays,homosexuals,bisexuals,lesbians and all fornicators.......BUT He hates the homosexuality,the Gay act,lesbianism and the fornication.
    So as we show them God's love,we should not compromise on the Truth...Living the life as a gay is sin and it needs repentance.

    I wouldn't be happy or leave live comfortably having my children asking questions like :"Dad! I saw those men kissing,those neighbors close to our house,who is the wife in that family ??"
    That is abnormal even in our sinful state.....it's irritating.

    If gays come to church now and then but still portray or live in sin then there is need to sound an alarm.The motive though we can't measure it for coming to church is to seek repentance and not to accept the gay behavior.There is need to accept the gays BUT to clearly,lovingly counsel against the gay sin.

    The rich young ruler met Jesus face to face,He thought He was okay or upright.Jesus counseled him in love but He could not do what Christ taught Him.If gays don't publicly repent sin,don't receive Jesus as their personal Savior and are not publicly baptized by immersion to openly die with Christ leaving the gay act in the grave and rise with Christ to a new marital status recognized in heaven.....then why keep them coming to church.

    Public sin has to be openly repented.Christians have to kindly teach the Truth about it....taming such acts will spoil our generation and we won't be a peculiar people.This ain't a human rights issue but a life or death issue.
    When Jesus met the outcasts their life never remained the same.We can't be tolerating gays in the church and their gay act remains the same......Jesus changes lives.Go and sin no more!!

    • It seems to me that some see gays committing suicide as a more acceptable way rather us trying to understand the root of a problem that seems to have no cure. You are assuming that gay people aren't tortured soul. As many have said they have prayed, fasted, tried therapy and stopped short of suicide. I watched the movie and its not for lack of praying. They are more committed to God and their faith than some heterosexual are. I think this just might be their crucible. I don't condone neither do I condemn. I just pray

      • Elaine, I appreciate your attitude. I wish we could all realize that some gays " ... are more committed to God and their faith than some heterosexuals are. I think this just might be their crucible."

        I hope that more of our readers can join us in this: "I don't condone neither do I condemn. I just pray."

        I see your understanding as demonstrating love, which we all need to have.

    • [Moderator's note: Please remember to use your full name as per the guidelines.]

      Hi Jumbe
      public sin needs to be openly repented but dont forget that repentance comes after knowing Christ. If the first thing we expect is to have gay people repent as they walk in church than we r wrong i believe.

      I knew what God expected out of me when i came to church but i cant say that it was that easy. Repentance came only after i met on a one on one basis with my Lord, not before. The desire to change came as well but it was a real struggle to leave my life style behind ( gang member drug user and dealer, alcoholic to an extreme and many more things i cant mention). Not all people have that encounter with Christ on their first visit to church, at least not from the people i know. So if the first thing i do when i see gay people or couples coming to church is to openly judge them than i think i have it all wrong.

      Think of the sanctuary, the altar of sacrifice which is the cross. The water place for the levites to wash is baptism. And then was the holy place which stands for what we know as sanctification. And last the most holly place which will be when we see our Lord face to face.

      The problem now a days is that we forget the sanctuary truth and we try our best to make people holy before we can bring them to Christ and that is plain wrong. I do t know about u but in my case the Lord is still working on me, no i'm not gay but my little white lies are as bad in front of God as any other sin. I have not seen it otherwise in my bible. The Christ i've seen and know is in the business of saving sinners and bringing them to His church but some people have a talent (unfortunately) to push them away on the basis of their sin or appearance.

      I cant say that my life is sinless, so one thing i try to remember is when Christ said that i need to pull the plank out of my eye before going around trying to help others with their little speck of dust in their eyes. According to the bible we r all sinners, imagine me for example, i've been an active member for 15 wonderful years and still a sinner. what can i expect from people that r walking into church for their first time?

      The last command Christ gave to His close followers was to preach and not to judge. Paul says in romans how can they believe if they haven't heard and how can they hear if nobody preaches, and i ask, how can they hear the gospel if self-righteous people push them away with words or attitudes not to mention dirty looks.

      I'm sure the best weapon i have with my kids is to educate them at home about the things that Christ expects from His children, rather then try to block their eyes when they see a gay couple. After all they will see it in school or in the family or friends or tv if they watch if. we have to take the words of EG. White more serious where she says its the love of Christ we have to show to the world and nothing else.

    • We ought always be redemptive in our associations with our fellow fallen human beings. I wonder how redemptive it is to cast out from our churches those most in need of grace?

      Leadership positions may be reserved for those who demonstrate a matured Christian walk. But why keep those especially in need of their example at bay?

      Gods declaration that man should not be alone goes for all, not just Adam. The support of a community is one of the purposes of church. Our willingness to have "stop smoking" seminars and other support systems should be extended to all members and visitors in need of healing. Church is not Heaven. God will not tolerate sin in heaven, but down here our concern should be casting a bigger net so God can clean those we cannot.

  4. I am a gay member at my church (about everybody knows), and one of the things I noticed, is very few people bothered to ask about my story. I guess on one hand they were shocked, and didn't know what to say. On the other hand I have the expectations that us as church need to learn the stories, backgrounds, and tribulations of all those coming through the pew doors without judgment.

    When you learn about the stories about the gays, you realize that the problems in that community are not so different than the straight community

  5. I think Jesus would first castout the demon in them before associating with them. What really Jesus achieved was their souls. Jesus could see the change in them before associating with them

    • The Gospel story shows Jesus associating with sinners before they changed. Jesus was a friend of sinners. In fact he goes to some lengths to explain why he befriended sinners.

      I am not sure that your "demon" description is the right one. Gender orientation is an issue that does not go away. I know a number of people who has looked for "cures" for their same-gender orientation and the best result seems to be that they have learned to live with it. I know too how much they appreciate the love and understanding of their community of believers.

      I have to deal with the sins of pride and selfishness, also an "abomination" to the Lord. At times I fail and my pride and selfishness gets in the way of my Christian experience. I appreciate the love and forgiveness that my community of believers extends to me. It is something that helps me keep my faith in the Gospel. We are in this together and we need the love and support of one another to encourage us to grow spiritually.

    • I agree with this view, I have gay friends that have left the church because they felt judged. They should feel welcome and loved as Mary did. It's the steps and changes and fruits they bear that The Lord will judge them by. We are not the convictors of sins we are to witness to everyone and lift up Christ and let Him do the convicting through love, us loving them by holding truth gently before them. No one can ever go to far for Christ to rescue, they can decide that being rescued is not what they want.

    • The idea that Jesus would "cast out demons" from gays before associating with them is pure nonsense. The religious people of Jesus time who could not fathom the depth of God's love and condescension. And today they still cannot. They are afraid they will be tainted by association, This is contrary to the whole meaning of Jesus' ministry.

  6. Homosexuals are the modern day lepers in the Christian church. Don't go near them. Don't talk to them. Don't breath their air. Make sure that they yell "unclean" in the super market. God does not love them. God will burn them forever. Or, what will happen if one of them is living next door to you in heaven?

    • We are all sinners in the sight of God therefore we should not condemn no one but we should be ready to try and witness to them and show them what Jesus requires of them to do.

  7. Considering your different approaches, I came up with the following reasoning:

    Christ said: And I, if I be lifted up form the earth, will draw all men unto me (John 12:32). The apostle Paul says: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:23-24). There are three things I noticed: (1) Without exception, we are all sinners being drawn to the cross. (2) At the cross we will be justified - not in sin - but from sin. (3) There is no question, homosexuality, being mentioned alongside with adultery, is sin (1 Corinthians 6:9; Romans 1:26-27; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13).

    Hence, the same attitude that Jesus showed in his relation to the womam taken in adultery, applies to homosexuality, too. Studying the related passage, it struck me that the text says: Neither do I condemn you (and) from now on go and sin no more (John 8:11).
    From now on - signifies a turning point in the life of the woman taken in adultery. The believers in Corinth used to be slaves of all kinds of sin considered merely as normal culture. Paul was writing and admonishing them: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17).

    Our Lord and his apostle are pointing out a turning point in life. This applies to all kinds of outcast sinners, although God does not know outcast sinners (Ezekiel 18:23; John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9; 1. Timothy 1:15). This very point is emphasized in the parables of the lost coin, the lost sheep and the lost son (Luke 15). Without communication of sinners with sinners there is no salvation. The attitude of Christ in relation to outcast sinners is an example pointing out the way of behaviour to all kinds of outcasts.

    The gospel is all about restitution within a new creation pointing back to creation. Marriage is a part of that original creation not to be destroyed by adultery or homosexuality. Whatsoever has gone wrong is being restored by the power of the gospel. This offers hope to all of us, even to any kind of outcast sinners.

    Winfried Stolpmann

    • [Moderator's note: Please use your full name as per our guidelines.]

      The same God who forgave prostitute like Mary is the same God who overturned Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality. This is probation time we have no more time to linger in sin let the homosexual be warned the door of mercy is soon to close.

      • Sometimes, when it comes to sexual sins we want to jump right over the compassion and understanding stage and get to the judgement stage. God is not willing that any should perish and extends the period of compassion until the close of probation. Maybe we should be just as willing.

        Secondly I know of many people who struggle with their sexual orientation. They have not decided to be gay. They deserve our understanding. Just as I am supported in my fight against the sin of pride so should others be supported and loved who have to fight against other issues.

        Maybe we can even offer hope and love to those who eat icecream!

        • Maurice, the text you quote about" God not willing that any should be lost" is often quoted, but "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say is, that all should come to repentance. We seem to omit that part. As I understand what the text says is, that if there is no repentance there is no salvation. That means Gays as well as any other sinner that continues their syle of life. I don't think we can say absolutely how Jesus would deal with Gays or any other perversion.
          If we are going to preach unequivocal acceptance,does this include child molesters and mass extinction by power hungry dictators? Is this being unloving, or is there a limit that even the most rightous would reasonably reach?

          • Paul, the Bible teaches us that it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. (Romans 2:4) So as the representatives of God, we need to demonstrate His goodness, His character. That's why I was asking if Jesus would be hanging out with gay people, because if He would, so should we.

            If we think people need to repent - no matter who they are - I believe we should do the best we can to bring them to repentance. Telling them they are sinners is generally ineffective. But demonstrating the goodness of God prepares the way for the Holy Spirit to work.

            In an effort to make it easier to leave our prejudices behind and begin relating to gay people in the manner of Jesus, I provided an opportunity to watch a movie that may help you understand. Have you watched it? If not, I suggest you take the time (about 100 minutes) to do so.

            We can know absolutely that Jesus wants to save all sinners, and no sin is so bad that Jesus cannot save anyone from it. The way I see it, it is our job to lift up Jesus so that sinners will be drawn to Him. (See John 3:14-17)

            As for child molesters: If they repent, they must still be supervised 100% of the time any place where children may be present, including in rest rooms. Treating them any differently is false love. And if they are truly repentant, they will accept the supervision, in gratitude for Christ's forgiveness and the opportunity to fellowship with believers.

        • In reading some of the responses to this deep and thought provoking article,I'm wondering, when were sinners given the task of appointing, " who should be saved,and who will be saved".. The Word reminds me as Paul writes, " while we were still sinning, Christ died for us" . Even John writes. " whosoever believes should not perish." So many have forgotten the change that the Holy Spirit can do in the lives of Sinners

          Religious people have " degreed" sinners so that we overlook which sins are abomination and others tolerable and acceptable. Aren't all sin an abomination to God?

          Could it be that because many of us have not truly experienced the love Jesus has for us, and not experienced the full working of the Holy Spirit personally,that we are uncomfortable with ministry out of the box? Our problem is as sinners we are not qualified to truly separate the actor from the action. So many times judgement is already passed before loving questions asked and compassion shown.
          Didn't Jesus say " gays and others will know we are His followers and friend when we Love each other? Or do we place stipulations on who is worthy of our love?

          Thanx Bro Ashton,Sis Anderson, Bro Whitman and others for your bold insights in pointing out difference between religious people and " the attitude of the righteous."

          May God teach us how to love those different from us.

      • God did not overturn or burn Sodom for homosexuality. That is a myth, It was for abusive inhospitality. Do a word study of Sodom and you will see what I mean.

      • Jorges, the Bible does not say that God "overturned Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality." That is your interpretation. Please do check out study the Bible for yourself to understand what it really says. If you don't feel up to doing your own research, you can check out "Sins of Sodom - What the Bible Really Says."

        I agree that we have no time to linger in sin - none of us. Our sin of considering ourselves superior to other sinners will keep us out of the Kingdom just as surely as will sexual sins - whether they be homosexual or heterosexual sins.

  8. Some say homosexuality is a choice and some say they are born that way. It really doesn't matter. I was born selfish but I had to be born AGAIN. Some people are born addicted to drugs. They must be born AGAIN. If someone is born homosexual or just says they are born that way, yes Jesus will hang out with them just like He hung out with Nicodemus, but Jesus will also tell the homosexuals the same thing He told Nicodemus, "You must be born- AGAIN." Different forms of sin, one solution for every form-be born AGAIN.

    • Excellent wisdom and illustration about being born again. It's so true, we are have the selfish bent from birth so we are all in the same boat. Thanks!

    • We were not borned sinners. The bible says all have sinned. "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17)

      Sin is imputed when there is knowledge. James 1:13-14 states that a man is tempted to desire the thing but he has to choose to sin "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"

      • To be "born a sinner" is to be born with a natural bent to sinning rather than holy living. And that is, indeed, the situation for every child of Adam and Eve, including you and me. We have "bents" towards different kinds of sin, but they all have a self-focus in common. Spiritual pride can keep us out of the Kingdom just as easily as fornication or gay sex.

        Thus the same solution applies to everyone -- we must be born again through the Holy Spirit and allow Jesus to be Lord in our lives.

    • Truth, truth is the question! What is the truth? Jesus spoke truth when He said,"You must be born again". Soloman said it when he wrote, "Fear God and do His commandments for this is the whole duty of man."

      The only way is to submit to God, resist the Devil. This must be taught!!! I know that in the human heart, there is a problem we have with true submission. There is a problem with the exercise of faith and perservering( holding to the course) like an alcoholic or drug addict who is going through the horror of severe withdrawal. WE as sinners will long for the old feel good ways, but we know that we must overcome. The body will cry out for the old ways.

      Some of us, whether gay of staight just give up and give in. Such actions leads to guilt, or a sheared conscience, or suicide( so sad), a state of hopelessness. It leads to wanting God, but not accepting that a life in Jesus Christ changes us. A life in Christ changes,stops, puts an end to lying, stealing, murders, intemperance and even sexual perversion. It really does!!!! One can really change and not want the old ways. It can really happen!!! Praise God!!!!! So when Bro. Jumbe wrote, We must be born again", brother, you hit the nail on the head, for that is the overall problem. Do we truly, want to be "born again".

      Judas could have been born again. He chose hopelessness because his expectations were not met. On the other hand Peter chose hope and repentance. Look, Jesus hung out with Lucifer, and how long we don't know, He showed love, compassion, he told Lucifer the truth. Eventually, God had to allow lucifer and his sympathizers an exit from the heavenly courts. We must ask why? Folks, "We Must Be Born Again". People, sinners, like each of us are allowing that "born again" experience to happen everyday. Lets keep this in prespective. Thank you Brother Jumbe for what I feel is a Balanced scriptural viewpoint!!!!

      • Hi Christine, you wrote,

        The only way is to submit to God, resist the Devil. This must be taught!!!

        I think that is backwards. I don't think it's possible to resist the devil before submitting to God and having Christ live within. We have no power of our own to "resist the devil." And when we try, we fail.

        I wonder how many people try to resist the devil and overcome some of their sins before coming to Christ? As I understand it, we need to come just as we are, and Jesus provides the power to resist the devil.

        And shouldn't we accept sinners just as they are, so that they understand that Jesus accepts them just as they are?

        I believe Jesus will clean them up in His own time and His own way - and His time table and His way may not always match ours. All we have to do is to introduce people to Jesus.

  9. Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality... 1 Cor. 6:9

    What exactly does it mean by "hanging out"? If it implies that Jesus condones homosexuality, then the above text will give you the straightforward answer. No need to second guess the Bible or God. But Jesus would show compassion and grace, just as He did for the prostitute, and then He would say, "Go, and sin no more!"

    Homosexuality is the result of the scourge of sin, just like any other "degenerating WRONG" caused by Sin. And sin can only be overcome by and through God's power.

    • You forgot those who steal, lie, fornicate, judge, dishonor parents, hate, gossip. Did I leave anything out? You get the point.

      We are all sinners and everyday we get up we sin either in thoughts words or deeds. I consider that also as a lifestyle. Remember the Publican and the sinner?

      • You are right Elain there is none rightous no not one, however I do not see many marching down the middle of the street proclaming their unrightousness. To be proud of our sins is not what God would accept.

        • Paul, not all gays march down the street half-naked on "Gay Pride" day. In fact, very few do, just as not all straight people engage in riots after a hockey game, as has happened in a number of cities. (Multi-million $ damage.)

          I suggest you watch the movie to get an intimate glimpse into the lives of some gay people who do not fit your descriptors.

          If we are to make a comparison of sins and of pride, I suspect that heterosexuals might just come out as the "winners." 😉

          Incidentally, Christ describes the Laodicean church as self-sufficient and proud. So if you profess to be a member of God's last church, it might be wise not to throw verbal stones. 😉

    • Ben, "hanging out" is just an informal way of saying "associating with." Perhaps I could have titled the post as "Would Jesus Associate With Gay People?"

      "Hanging out" does have a connotation of spending some time with people, rather than associating just casually. Kind of like the time Jesus spent with Zaxcheus, Mary Magdalene, the Samarian woman with many husbands.

      And Elaine is right. No sinners of any kind will inherit the Kingdom of God - you and me included. (Paul was addressing a specific situation and making a specific point, and it wasn't about gay sex.)

      It seems to me that the only way any of us will enter the Kingdom is to pray, "God be merciful to me, a sinner!" as the publican did. (Luke 18:12-14) We need to throw ourselves wholly on the mercies of Christ.

      As I understand it, there is no room in the Kingdom for those who consider themselves better than others.

  10. I think your post makes people think. Many SDA don't want to feed or house anyone let alone the gay/lesbians. As you say, we need to learn to love as Jesus loves. When we get the gospel in our hearts, we will believe that we are sinners, just like every other sinner, and the sinful nature in every single person doesn't change until Jesus comes.

    Men or women enlisting the affections of women or men, until there is a desire to commit a sexual sin or get married, when it isn't appropriate, is also a sin. Our lives are full of all kinds of selfish sins and expectations.

    Do we "allow" a gay/lesbian to attend church a few times-that is a distinct number of times, and then it's time for them to clean up? What about people that do Bible studies for three years and finally accept the Sabbath. Does that mean they are now clean? I've watched people in the church for 33 years, and so few of them want to be honest and confess and forsake the sins that they commit towards others. There is so much pride in the church and honesty is lacking. I don't know the answers for how to treat the gay/lesbians but they should be given the same tolerance and love that we give anyone else.

    My hairdresser is gay and I hug him and he is a friend. Our neighbors down below our house are a lesbian couple and we see them at the beach and the pool with their young children. I greet them and treat them like anyone else. Another lesbian couple is down the road and they adopted Russian boys. The parents are both educators. They are better parents than many I have ever seen. Maybe there is something we can learn from these people because I believe I can learn something from every single person. And if my hairdresser or neighbors wish to come to church someday, I pray I would show them the same love and concern that I have shown anyone else, and invite them for a meal after church, and be their friend if they so desire.

  11. I am a sinner but I am not openly (or privately) practicing sin. I used to, but the power of God Paul talks about in Romans 6 has freed me from the power of sin that reigned in my body for many years. Does this make me better than any other sinner? No, of course not. God was very patient with me while I struggled in the bondage of sin. My freedom from the power of sin has made me more patient and merciful with my fellow travelers on this road of sanctification.

    I believe that the problem that most Christians have with accepting gays as members is that such acceptance appears to condone homosexuality which is regarded as a lifestyle contrary to a follower of God - a lifestyle, not a mistake, not a weakness, not a sin one is struggling with, but rather a settling into a lifestyle which we are asked to forsake as children of God. Should the church accept as members those openly living in adultery or any other sin for that matter? I believe that when we come to Christ we come in repentance, fully aware of our shortcomings and ready to begin the journey of sanctification with Him.

    I'm not sure what the mindset of a gay Adventist is since I have never met one. I am thinking that if there is a "coming to Christ" then there is a heart wrenching, soul searching, falling at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness and the power to be free of the power of sin. This always happened when people encountered Jesus and it has been my own personal experience.

    Now if gay couples feel safe enough to attend our church I do believe we should welcome them, love them, and show them Jesus. As they catch a glimpse of our beautiful Savior, His Spirit will bring conviction, hope, and the power to live holy lives.

    But we cannot accept them as members before a public turning away from the road of sin and beginning to walk on the sanctification road.

    Will they ever fall down while walking on that road? I'm sure of it, but they they will get back up again and keep walking as they settle into a new lifestyle - walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

    • Eudora said: "I am a sinner but I am not openly (or privately) practicing sin."

      I'm a little confused by this statement.

      On another note altogether, I will say that while I do not know any gays or lesbians among my friends or associates I hope that God will give me wisdom and compassion if I were to meet any in the future; so I can be like Jesus.

      Thanks for your very challenging post, Ms. Anderson; and may God continue to bless us as we strive to represent His character to the world!

      • Yes, Eudora's statement is confusing. Surely she does not mean she is without sin? (See 1 John 1:8)

        Thank you for your comment, Andrew. Striving to represent His character to the world is what it is all about, but we cannot do it on our own, it is only as Christ lives in us, that His love will shine out through us.

  12. [Moderators note: Please use your full name as per the guidelines.]

    While i have many gay friends and even forget their orientation when i relate to them sometimes. I really have a problem with the language of this article; Feasts are not necessarily parties. Even today there are even distinctions between parties. I surely dont see Yeshuah going to a gay party any more than i would expect him to go to a baal feast.

    Moreover, there is nowhere in the article that stated how to deal with the issue understanding that it is as sinful as any other sin, instead i see an overabundance of attempts to either reinterpret biblical positions or trivialize them while holding up spirituality.

    My position is this all sin is SIN and will be treated as such,therefore sin can never be justified; your nor mine. I really dont understand this push for special treatment lately, are they more worthy of forgiveness and love than a rapist, pedophile, terrorist, practicing serial killer would YOU do all you have suggested for the aforementioned group? i would like to hear the answer to that and not just lip service now

    • Christopher, whether or not "feasts" were parties is debatable. I think that the feasts Jesus attended (like the feast at Simon's house) was probably equivalent to our "dinner parties.

      But you make a serious charge in your comment. Please point out the "overabundance of attempts to either reinterpret biblical positions or trivialize them" and demonstrate from the bible how what I stated is wrong. (It was and is my aim to represent biblical positions correctly.)

      And please realize that my post was not dealing with whether or not gay sex is a sin. (The Bible is clear that God designed sex solely for a husband and wife committed to each other in a life-long covenant of marriage.)

      I agree with you that there should be no "special treatment for gays." There is no basis for considering them worse sinners than ourselves. After all, the first sin was pride, and the first sin of Sodom mentioned in Ezekiel is pride. (Eze 16:49) Is it not a form of pride to consider ourselves better than other sinners? In the story Christ told, the religious man who deemed himself better than other sinners was not justified. (Luke 18:12-14 )

      I do see your comparison of gay people to "rapist, pedophile, terrorist, practicing serial killer" as being way out of line. For one thing, if gay people do, indeed, sin, it is a private matter between two consenting adults. That does not excuse sin, but it is a very different kind of sin than that committed by "rapist, pedophile, terrorist, practicing serial killers." The latter all prey upon or damage innocent people. It really makes me question your statement re having "many gay friends." Are you their friend by likening them "rapist, pedophile, terrorist, practicing serial killers."

      Ellen White has something relevant to say that should help in our relationship with all people (considering all are sinners):

      If we keep uppermost in our minds the unkind and unjust acts of others we shall find it impossible to love them as Christ has loved us; but if our thoughts dwell upon the wondrous love and pity of Christ for us, the same spirit will flow out to others. We should love and respect one another, notwithstanding the faults and imperfections that we cannot help seeing. Humility and self-distrust should be cultivated, and a patient tenderness with the faults of others. This will kill out all narrowing selfishness and make us large-hearted and generous. Steps to Christ, p. 121

      It seems to me that keeping uppermost in our minds the (often imagined) sins of others, in this case particularly gay people, will make it impossible to love them. The counsel to cultivate "self-distrust" is relevant. It will make us hesitant to judge others harshly.

  13. Jesus said "I come to call 'sinners' UNTO repentance". He also said that they that consider themselves whole (complete and satisfied as they are) need no physician.

    Jesus' interest in a gay or lesbian is the same as for other person ....the salvation of their souls AND the transformation of their lives and characters.

    A straight person will no longer bask in the erotic delight of intimacy with his spouse's mom, nor the child-molester justify seduction of a nine-year old (simply because he believes in all humanity's inalienable right to their own sexuality regardless of age), nor will the gay community continue to practice homosexual and lesbian lifestyles.

    Many straight males in the church would rather have more than one woman. That's our natural preference. But because it feels natural is not reason enough to resist spiritual rebirth. The woman who delights in having sex with her dog should not expect to perpetuate the practice after she is born again.

    The Holy spirit transforms the lives so that we become new creations, Old self-serving, self-gratifying desires and lifestyles are past away. Behold all things are become new. Folks, God who made sex so mind-blowing, has vastly more pleasurable experiences waiting for us. And it probably will not be the same format as earthly intercourse....but way more potent. We are presently experimenting with the toy Russian 'Lada' car, feeling our way around the pedals, but there is a Porsche waiting and the key is in the ignition. Selah.

  14. This article is one of its kinds that had me really spitting out some no’s instead of yeses.

    I believe it is a reality that we as church members and the church and its governing body have to come to terms with this very sensitive issue. Homosexuality has become a hard phenomenon to handle and I need to be able to know how to address any situation where I may have to be a witness to them although no known one is attending my Sabbath school yet.

    I believe that every sinner has the capacity to also commit homosexuality, because it is a sin, so homosexuals should seek forgiveness like everybody else. I believe that they also need love and empathy which is the starting point of resolving their issues, e.g., carnal abuse, parental neglect, greed, low self-esteem etc. However, as it relates to the matter of having a couple coming to my home, or me going to their parties, I think the term “Jesus attending there parties” is too much a loose one. I would like to ask the article writer, would you invite anybody with this known sin, obvious to everyone, to your home and even leave them around your kids, spouse or your pets while you attend a board meeting at church?

    A church not so far from me had a homo brother attending for some time, and while Sabbath school was being conducted inside, the brother who I know personally, was grooming some young teens in the rest room. This happened at church, and he did not show the slightest remorse.

    • On the subject of pedophilia mentioned in your last paragraph; it is important to note that the biggest danger to children is from heterosexuals. In many cases the perpetrator is a person well known to the children. In my career as an educator, male-female pedophile cases have outnumbered male-male cases considerably. Pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing.

      It is also probably worth noting that compassion does not mean condoning. If my best friend turned out to be a thief, I would have compassion for him but I would not condone what he had done. Compassion has to be both tough and tender.

      Regarding Jesus attending parties: Jesus did eat with publicans and sinners. The conservatives of the day criticized him for that. My daughter when she was a university student used to go to student parties. She was well known among her friends as someone they could rely on if they got too drunk to control themselves. She would help them throw up in the toilet; drive them home because they could not drive themselves. She would take steps to ensure that fights did not erupt between the party goers. I was scared spit-less for my daughter to start off with, but in the end had to admire her courage to act like Jesus. She won the respect of her friends and still maintains contact with them many years later.

      Jesus did mix with sinners. His compassion was available to all regardless of creed, race, gender, education, or criminal history. It's time to follow his example.

    • In reply to your question whether I would invite a gay person to my home, the answer is an emphatic YES!

      Not only would I, but I have done so. They are my friends. I know their stories. They are people just like you and me - not some strange, evil kind of creature that cannot be trusted around spouse and children. Some are celibate in obedience to what they see as God's commands; others are heterosexually married. Some are in relationships, perhaps celibate, perhaps not.

      Gays and lesbians are not criminals. If they have engaged in immoral behavior, it affected only themselves and another adult of like mind. There are no other victims. And, by the way, I don't ask, "Have you had sex during the last month?" any more than I would ask a heterosexual friend. And I wouldn't ask you whether you had viewed porn during the last month, and remember that Jesus said that he who lusts after a woman is guilty of adultery already. (Matthew 5:27-29)

      As a matter of fact I know several gay people who would make fine babysitters. Others not so much. But the same is true for the straight people I know.

      If we felt we could not invite gay people to our home because they are too "sinful," in order to be consistent, we should not invite proud people, rich people, those who do not look after the poor and needy (See Eze. 16:49-50). And we should not invite people who speak lies (gossip?) or sow discord among brothers. (Prov 6:19) I'm sure you can see that I could make a very long list that would likely exclude you. And we would be a very inhospitable couple of Pharisees at home. 😉

      And how could we share what God has done for us, if we don't socialize with people?

      As for the man who groomed underage teens for his sexual pleasure, he would likely be a pedophile. And that is not the same as being a gay man/homosexual. A pedophile preys on victims.

      How to treat pedophiles is a whole other subject. I will just say this: Jesus can redeem pedophiles too, but for the sake of protecting children and not exposing pedophiles to temptation, churches need to escort known pedophiles at all times. They should be chaperoned to the rest room, among other things. If they are repentant, they will not mind, and it need not be obvious that they have a "friend" with them at all times.

      [Moderator note: No more references to pedophiles will be published under this post.]

  15. As I read the comments above I am wondering what must be our vision, our perspective of God. Is His grace not sufficient to save us, all of us if we surrender to him?

    When he comes will we all not be changed "in the twinkling of an eye", will this mortal not put on immortality"? Why is this change necessary? When Jesus returns will he not find some adulterers, some prostitutes, some thieves, some liars, some drug addicts, and yes, some homosexuals who have surrendered to Him but who have not yet overcome their human weakness, but are still striving? Or do we all, including gay people and addicts, have to change (overcome our human weaknesses) before He returns so that he has no cause to change us? Is perfection a stage or is it a process?

    And I am wondering, if God's grace is powerful enough to save a thief and a murderer, why not a gay person? I am just confused that the Adventist God that we say that we serve is so limited? I think we all need a new vision of the God who died for all humanity. He is the one who said that if we believe on Him, we will be saved.

    • Hi, have you ever read the book the great controversy? I'm not being sarcastic just in case u are a long time Adventist.

      I remember reading in there about our characters just before Jesus comes back. If u have never read the book, look at the chapters called final warning and continue to end of the book. In summary it appears to describe Christians going through period of persecution because of their beliefs...it talks about them being brought before kings and rulers (our courts) to answer for our beliefs. The reading appears to tell us that during that time the main concern of our hearts will be making sure we don't have unforgiven sins and whether Christ has been allowed to continue to give us victory over our sins. Perfection is a process but I'm not sure it's a process that continues up until Jesus comes. That's why when Jesus in revelation takes off his priestly robes of interceding on our behalf and puts on his robe of vengeance, and says he that is just let him be just still, he that is filthy let him be filthy still...etc our characters are set at that point.

      So if we are gay, a liar, a thief, murderer and unrepentant or unchanging through the blood of Jesus, we won't be changed when Jesus comes back. That verse u referenced in regards to changes in a twinkling of an eye followed by mortal putting on immortality refers to our body changing, not a change in our characters. Our characters would have been Christ-like before he comes back. God bless you my brother.

      • Lawrence:
        I like your sincerity, but what if you are sincerely wrong? You are not sure that the process of perfection continues up until Jesus comes back. What if you are wrong? How can you build a complete doctrine on what you are not sure about? And, if my character can be set by my own effort what need do I have of the changing power of the Holy Spirit? You are also alleging that bodies will be changed but not characters. So we would have reached the "stage" of perfection before Jesus comes, and we would not need Him to change any aspect of our characters.
        You also rhetorically ask, what if one is a gay... and unrepentant? I ask what if one is a gay and repentant? Is that person condemned to hell because that person was unable to get over his/her sinful nature? What is the place of grace then? It just does not resonate with the character of a God who says He will save all those who believe on Him (John 3:16). So now we must do more than believe, we must change our sinful natures by force of effort.

        • Just to clarify, our characters are only changed by Christ work on our hearts. He doesn't force a change in us that we don't want. Your question about Gods grace for gays who can't "get over their sinful nature" is interesting because then it should apply for all sins ie murderers, adulterers, thieves, liars etc. The most beautiful thing God gave us is choice. We can choose to sin or not sin. We can choose to accept his help and the victory he offers over our sins or we can choose not to. Many of us don't want to change our lifestyles and forsake our pet sins and then claim we can't get over them. We don't because sin has been made attractive for us. If it wasn't we wouldn't sin. Gods grace is sufficient for our weakness and his desire for us is righteousness which he offers in the form of Jesus. Our "works" or how we behave testify of the change we have allowed God to make in our lives. Is God unable to do what he said and make us new creatures? Not if we don't want him to. So when he comes back if he changes our characters into something we didn't want when we were on this earth then God is a designer of human robots, not human beings with the ability to choose. So to answer ur question, no where in the bible does it indicate God changing our characters at his second coming. The context of the verse is mortality versus immortality which refers to eternal life and death. No, our characters are not changed by our efforts but by faith in Christ and faith in his ability to make us new creatures through his Holy Spirit. If I go by ur thought process then I can live how I want, claim weakness over my sins and still get into heaven because of God's grace. We should be careful of presumption because we are all guilty of it. Gods grace is not unlimited which is why people die and many times die while in the midst of their sin. The bible shows us that. That's why we should make a choice to follow Christ today, admit we have sinned (living a gay lifestyle is a sin in the bible) forsake our sins, ask him for victory over our sins and then by faith walk in the victory he has promised to give us. God bless

      • Lawrence, I agree with you that we cannot just go on sinning and expect to be magically transformed at the second coming.

        However, I doubt that focusing on being sinless is going to get us there. I believe only Jesus can perfect us, as we surrender to Him day by day and listen to and obey the voice of the Spirit.

        I also sense a misunderstanding regarding what it means to be "gay." It's an attraction to the same sex that is hard-wired into a person like left-handedness. It has biological and environmental components, and to the individual it feels like being born that way. It is part of a person's make-up - just like many of us have tendencies that do not harmonize with the word of God. But God does not condemn us for our sinful nature. That really will NOT change till Christ comes again. (God has not promised to take our sinful nature from us.) We are only responsible for obeying the voice of the Spirit.

        Perhaps someone else can explain it better.

        • [Moderator note: Thank you for your comment, but please use first and last name while posting on SSNET]

          "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people then He will come to claim them as His own."I believe,before Christ comes there will come a time and a group of people in this earth who would rather die than commit error or sin.This is ADVENTISM in its understanding of the sanctuary doctrine as related to the proclamation of the 3 angels of Revelation 14 and the final warning of the angel of Rev 18! Christ cannot leave the sanctuary in heaven unless there will be "a people who obtained the latter rain which is the perfection of the character in their lives----the 144,000.!

          • Sanctification is a process. It does not happen overnight:
            "While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God." DA 173

        • Let's talk about "hard-wired" inclinations: Who doesn't have them that is from the family of Adam?? Now let's consider another idea, which is that of the man born lame. He simply could never walk or even expect to. Then he meets Peter and John. I mean the Peter who was now filled with the Holy Ghost, and who offers this hopeless man a "cure". If Peter had first discussed it with the "experts", who would have believed it?! Yet what was the outcome of that meeting?

          Now let's ask ourselves which would be easier, for a hard-wired sinner to make better choices, or for a hard-wired, lame-from-birth man to walk? One has no choice and one does. But it doesn't end there if we include the Gospel does it? The Gospel includes every promise of God for every sinner on earth, and this is vital to remember. Both of our subjects have God's promises to both will and do of His good pleasure. When there seems no possible escape, the sea will part and a firm path be revealed to all who believe in the One who parts seas. There is no ocean of circumstances that the Creator cannot create a path through. Do you believe it?

          God's goodness leads to repentance, but how? Once we, like Joseph, commit ourselves fully to gaining a knowledge of God, the rest will follow. Realizing like Joseph that God is always present (Ps 139) while being perfectly pure and holy, what does that do to ANY sinner who keeps that truth in the forefront? When God, as it is our privilege to understand Him, is always near and watching us, we find a power given to all who ask and we will gain the victory "over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action." (EW 71)

          The power of the Gospel is real. Ask Peter and his new friend. The only sinners that will not gain the victory are the ones who don't want to. Because the "grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men...".

          • Robert, I believe we have some misunderstandings here ... not sure how much, but let me try to clarify. (You appear to be addressing something you think I wrote, not what I wrote.)

            Yes, the lame man was healed and was able to walk again. But not every lame man is healed, and God does not condemn men for being lame. Some people are healed from cancer, but many are not, and God does not condemn people for having cancer.

            Now let's address how people are born: Some are born with Down's syndrome, and that severely limits their understanding of spiritual things. But God can still save them even with their limited ability. I haven't heard of many people with Down's syndrome being healed.

            We now know rather conclusively that some men are born with a homosexual orientation. We don't know all that contributes to it, but we know that a homosexual orientation is not chosen. God does not condemn people for a homosexual orientation, any more than He condemns people for a heterosexual orientation.

            But the Bible does make clear that He designed sexual union exclusively for the life-long covenant of heterosexual marriage. Men may sin by ignoring God's design - whether they are heterosexually or homosexually oriented. Men of either orientation may sin by lusting, if not by actual physical sexual union.

            On the other hand, we may each surrender ourselves fully to Jesus Christ, our sexuality included, and He supplies the grace we need to live in obedience - whether in singleness or marriage.

            God has not promised to take away our sinful human nature from us and replace it with a sinless nature until Jesus comes again. In the meantime, we have our sexuality to deal with. The victory gained through the Holy Spirit has to do with the choices we make, not our human nature or the nature of our temptations

            It is just as wrong to tell gay people that God will not accept them until their same-sex attraction is gone as it is to tell straight people that God will not accept them until their opposite-sex attraction is gone. The attraction is not sin. What we do with it may or may not be sin. The key is full surrender, and then God will lead each of us in safe paths.

            When Jesus walked this planet, He sought out those shunned by society and demonstrated His love to them. On that basis I believe that if He walked this planet today, He would seek out gay people who have been told that God hates them and assure them that He loves them infinitely - that He would have come to die for just one of them!

        • Inge, as I read your note, we seem to me to be saying the same thing, perhaps in a different way. What I understand you to mean is that regardless of our natural desires, God does not condemn what we are, but what we choose to do. My point was that we can gain victory over temptation's power, even while temptation remains. My reference to the lame man was to show God's ability to do the impossible in us. If someone physically unable to walk can be made to walk, then someone spiritually could be given the ability to "walk in the law of the Lord", while still a mortal "sinner" with sinful tendencies "hard-wired in them. God's grace does not remove temptation or always the inclination, but gives victory over it as long as it is desired. In some God seems to have removed specific desires, while in others He provides grace to gain victory while the desires remain intact. The fact revealed in the lame man (as well as so many other healings) is God's ability and power for those who believe in His promises and the evidence given to us.

          But none of this will work until we see the Goodness of God, which I believe you are trying to bring out through this topic, and Jesus' example. As Jesus was rightly accused of; "This man receives sinners!" but the ones accusing Him didn't get it.

          We must fight against sin in this life until we are changed "in the twinkling of an eye". The man today who gains the victory over lust, does not lose his love of beautiful women(or men), but has received by faith the grace of God to live a holy life while it remains. If it was just a matter of God "fixing" our brains, all would be saved. Instead, it's a matter of faith, our faith in God, and that faith must continue until Jesus is fully seen in our lives. The choice remains with us in this life.

          Our need as sinners is faith, not a lobotomy. My comment above was about victory through grace, not having temptation removed in this life. The 3rd paragraph is clear on that matter. We gain victory over what remains, not what doesn't exist.

  16. A Blessed Sabbath Saints.

    Thank you for the "unpopular" post, twas much appreciated. Just a correction on the reference given at the bottom on the quote you gave about us showing through our characters and lives what the grace of God has done for us. It is not Pg 415 in The Desire of Ages, as per the reference currently showing, but instead it is Christ Object Lessons. [fixed - thank you - Moderator]

    Kind Regards


  17. I believe Jesus would have associated with anyone who was receptive to His message. His teachings were in direct contrast to the religious leaders of His time and offered compassion and mercy as opposed to condemnation and rejection.
    As far as homosexuality is concerned, I believe it is demon possession because it is so contrary to God's example of a sexual relationship. Our spiritual enemy always has a substitute for God's law and practices and spiritual warfare is something we Adventists tend to be reluctant to discuss.

  18. Thank you Inge for this thought revealing article as the ensuing discussion samples the views of those who have professed a call, like the Disciples', to be "fishers of men". (Matt 4:19) Hopefully, as "fishermen" we are hearing that the invitation involves following Him who produces in us "fishers of men". Just like the original Disciples we bring our sinful mindset to the job of "fishing":

    • they couldn't cast out a "dumb spirit" as requested by a man on his son's behalf, (Mark 9:17-35) but instead became embroiled in an internal dispute on which of them would be the greatest (Mark 9:33-34), and are rebuked by the "fishermen" Producer.
    • they forbade others to heal in their Master's name; desired to call fire from heaven to burn up some Samaritans they felt had disrespected their Master, who rebuked them on both counts. (Luke 9:49-56)
    • they prevented those bringing their children to Jesus for prayer from doing so, and He rebuked them. (Mark 19:13-15)
    • Peter sought to interfere with God's plan for His Son's life, incurring one of the most severe rebukes by Jesus recorded in Scripture. (Mark 8:31-33)
    • Peter states his religious culture's, (Acts 10:28) and hence his own, prejudice towards non-practitioners(Gal 2:11-13).

    Apparently there's plenty of "fish" but the "fishermen" have some proficiency problems (Matt 9:36-38). The "Lord of the harvest" will cleanse His sanctuary such that it becomes "a house of prayer for all nations" (Mark 11:15-17). Anyone want to go "fishing"?

  19. Some of the posts on this on this Blog have me feeling very sad. I am so grateful and sad. It makes me sad to see so many hard hearts and closed minds. I am grateful that my God loved and protected me until I knew that He loved a sinner like me and then waited patiently until could accept His love. Now He is helping me daily to change my ways and thinking. I need to remember to keep my heart and mind open for His guidance. Thank you Jesus.

    Thank you Jesus for your love acceptance and understanding.

  20. Jesus died for all sinners. We were born in sin and shaped in iniquity., therefore we deserve to die but Jesus rescued and redeemed us. Jesus always seek heavenly help from God every and early morning before day break and sometimes all night He would be in diligently prayer to God for the ''world of sinners''.

    One of the most effective ways we can reach ''gays'' is to follow Jesus' example, all night prayer meeting, and fasting for them that God will intervene in their lives and send His Holy Spirit to change them. It takes more than being nice and loving them. The fishermen toiled all night and caught nothing, certainly we do not want to be useless fishermen, but when Jesus helped them, they became "fishers of men". May we today and always follow Jesus' example.

    • The simple answer is YES. Based on this past week's lesson He hung w/the outcasts. He hung out w/Publicans, a harlot, a Samaritan and even a man with an unclean spirit. Every sin imaginable is of an unclean spirit.

      What is sin? The transgression of the law. When we choose to sin we are choosing to allow Satan to possess our hearts/thoughts for that moment or moments. Jesus is aware of our choices and He gives us mercy/grace to ask for forgiveness and expects us to turn from sin and dedicate ourselves to the amendment of our lives (repent). He wants us all to be saved and be with Him in the Kingdom, He didn't make any exceptions(Matt. 14:2-3) He didn't and doesn't have any stipulations on who He chooses to hang out with (Rev. 3:20)

      Most of the sick and lame that Jesus healed, He commanded them to go and sin no more because He knew their hearts were more sick than their physical disabilities. I believe we doubt Jesus' ability to clean the unclean. We believe that because something is an "Abomination", then it can not be cleansed. Prov. 15:9 says, that the way of the wicked is an abomination. Which we ALL fall into that category (Rom. 3:23-25).

      We Christians are too busy trying to do Jesus' job of convicting, saving and even deeming people's fate that we forget that we are no closer to heaven, than those outcasts. Jesus wants us to follow His example by the commission He gave us (Mark 16:15). Even in Heaven, God gave Lucifer a chance to repent (Great Controversy pg. 495-497). My goodness if Lucifer (before his name change) was given a chance...anyone has a chance. Again He didn't make any exceptions. Everyone is worthy of salvation, if they are willing to change.

  21. We were born with sin in us but you have a choice. Sin come from a long line of people in our family's Just think how long the devil was here, and sin is sin - all choices and it is the same if we do this or that wrong. all is a sin.

  22. I do not believe that Jesus would "hang out" with homosexuals or with any sinner.

    He cares about the sinner, but hates the sin. He did not go about seeking to find sinners to "hang out" with. He sought sinners to save them.

    The homosexual agenda's tentacles reaches deep into even the church's way of reaching out to sinners...as with any sinner - thieves, pedophiles, murderers, members of the LGBT community, God cares about all sinners; He wants us through Jesus to get rid of sin so that we can stand on the Sea of Glass and see His face! His commandments are still binding; His love is freely given to all. But His condition is that we are obedient to His law: "If you love me keep My commandments!" John 14:15

    • Sharon, I want to start with the last part of your comment. You write,

      But His condition is that we are obedient to His law: "If you love me keep My commandments!" John 14:15

      Have you considered this commandment Jesus gave: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (John 12:34) He loved us enough to die for us.

      Do you suppose He wants us to love others like that, or not?

      To "hang out with" implies to spend time with. And you think Jesus would not spend time with gay people? Do you think they cannot be saved?

      And Jesus surely did "go about seeking to find sinners to 'hang out' with." He went out of his way to spend several hours with the woman in Samaria who was living common-law with a man after having been married five times, for instance. That's how He went about saving people - He spent time with them. And in the presence of His love and purity, they were drawn to repent and to worship Him.

      It works no differently today. Only love can draw people out to genuine repentance. Repentance based on fear is self-serving, and Jesus demonstrated self-*renouncing* love, not doing things to save ourselves.

      Jesus said that "If I be lifted up, I will draw all unto me." (John 12:32) I believe that saying has several layers of meaning. The most obvious is Christ being physically lifted up on the cross. But that dying 2,000 years ago doesn't do any good unless we help people to "see" it by making the love of Christ clear to them. And there's no way to do that without demonstrating some of it ourselves. Surely it is not done by refusing to spend time with people.

      Or what do you think?

  23. I think this whole topic is a difficult one for Seventh-day Adventists to deal with mostly because the world sees it as normal behavior and in fact promotes it. When people believe in evolution that says that we are just another animal that is further up on the evolutionary tree then practices such as homosexuality become acceptable because they know that lower animals do it. Anyone who owns a dog knows very well what I am talking about. So to me the problem has to do with acceptance of a stated prohibited practice.

    There are sins that we have to deal with constantly that we will have to struggle with the rest of our lives. Alcoholism is one thing that comes to mind. Anyone who has come out of AA knows the idea that "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic." Alcoholics know that it is a daily battle that they cannot relax on or else they will slip back into the practice again. To me the same goes with a lot of others sins as well, especially those concerning sex.

    Considering all of this it seems to me that what we are dealing with here is attitude. We know that we will all slip at times so it is not that kind of a thing that is the problem. To me the problem lies in the acceptance of a wrongful practice and refusal to turn from it. Therefore, to me, the condemnation is on those who "practice lawlessness" which is a stubborn, willful disobedience (Mat 7:23; 13:41; Rom 1:32; Gal 5:21). The idea of practicing involves an ongoing action, a chosen direction as the NET Bible puts Heb 10:26 so well, "For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us" or that of the New Living Translation, "if we deliberately continue sinning."

    To me then there seems to be a fork in the road on the matter of homosexuality. Those that want something better are in and should be accepted in spite of the struggles they have while those who raise their fist in rebellion who are determined to remain in that state have only condemnation to look forward to. Even though Jesus would like to save the rebellious He cannot for they have chosen which side they are on. For us seeing the difference is difficult if not impossible but sometimes an attitude is manifested and the church cannot remain indifferent to it.

    • Tyler, I agree that what we need to address is attitude. That was the point of my post: We need an attitude like that of Christ in order to cooperate with Christ.

      Since Christ said He came to save, not to condemn (John 3:17), we don't want to condemn people beforehand and judge that their attitude is not right. It seems to me that even the attitude of some of His disciples wasn't always good. 😉

      I believe your analogy to alcoholism is relevant. We know that inheritable factors are involved with alcoholism, and it doesn't just go away - even after conversion. The only way to deal with it is to stay away from alcohol. But alcoholism is by no means a perfect analogy. It's not possible to just stay away from sexual stimuli. If we go out in the world at all, they will come. I think the important thing for gay people is to recognize that these stimuli are not sinful in and of themselves. It is like Martin Luther is reported to have said, "You can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building nests in your hair."

      We cannot prevent the stimuli, or even our physical and mental reactions, but we can avoid entertaining the thoughts. And that is only by the grace of God. I suspect it's not an easy road for gays. But then, it's the same battle straight men must face in regard to women. It's harder for some than for others to avoid lusting. (Matt 5:28)

      • Jesus prayer was not that God would take His followers out of the world, but that He would keep them from the evil. You are correct Inge, temptation is constantly in our faces in this world, but what did Jesus do in the constant face of temptation? I believe there is a clear strategy for the follower of Jesus in Phil 2:5-8, Matt 11:29, and 2 Cor 10:5. In this manner we are kept by God from the evil. We can't keep ourselves is the clear meaning of Jesus' prayer.

        It always comes to the choices we make out of faith in God's word, beautifully exhibited in the life of The Word made flesh. He is our example of living by faith in a world devoted to feelings. Surrender, meekness and service are the Gospel remedies for any sin.

        I always cringe when the word "attitude" is used because it's not something we can change ourselves. Too many have been told "you need to change your attitude!", but without being told how this is accomplished. Faith overcomes the world and it's attitudes, and faith is the only means we can exercise that will take hold of God's grace, which corrects every attitude that is off balance with His. Follow the strategy above and attitudes will be in perfect unison with the Creator of all things. The Holy Spirit will live in the heart empty of self and yielded to the Father of spirits.(Heb 12:9)

        We cannot address attitudes without first addressing faith, which comes by...you all know the rest. (Rom 10:17) I've always seen attitudes as a by-product of something else. It's what others see that reveals what they can't see. The power of God alone can correct any evil, and He said it from the very first entrance of sin into this world when He promised; "I will put enmity..." Only God can "create a clean heart and renew a right spirit within". Only by faith is this to be realized by the sinner. Only the power of the Divine can correct wrong attitudes.

        We are told; "commit your way unto the Lord, trust also in Him, and He will bring it to pass". Man trying to correct his attitude would be like the earth, when it was "without form and void" trying to create itself.

      • The question would Jesus hang out with gay depends on the situation Jesus would find Himself involved. If He were to be approached and asked about that lifestyle He would surely guide the inquire to a safe answer. But if He should come upon an orgy or two men engaged in such an act He would continue to walk pass the situation and not for a moment gaze upon the act until the act was completed maybe go back to correct that sinful lifestyle.

        The devil would always find a way to place Jesus in an uncomfortable situations. If you remember in a past incidents several gay people would come to Christian churches to create an uncomfortable environment.

        If your gay sin is a secret sin attending any church would be a comfortable situation for all members but if those individuals who refuse to let go with Jesus help and continue to practice because they believe that it's not their fault and Jesus made them that way and you should accept their lifestyle.

        Also I believe you would all give second thoughts as to homosexual who have abuse children in the past and even if they are no longer involved in such acts feel comfortable as a member of your church. I believe Jesus would want them to attend a church where they are not placing anyone in an uncomfortable setting. In reality I cannot really speak for Jesus so why did I try?

        • Hello dear Brother!
          JESUS does see all and does not avert HIS eyes. Psalms 139 shares that even in the darkness everything is as day(light). Even in your darkness, Robert Rouillard. While JESUS was walking the earth he was constantly in the presence of sin whether it was pride or unforgiveness or sodomy. God HIMSELF came to a dirty foul barn - ever exposed to all the wickedness. Even Satan, himself the father of all sin, had an audience with HIM. I am sure during the whole time JESUS looked at him directly.

          I am celibate now and gay, and I can assure you while I was doing the worst things, JESUS was there always wooing me. Always present. Never taking His eyes off me. Gays are precious in HIS sight. Just like you! Your sin is repulsive but you are not.
          The sinners flocked to HIM. Don't think there is a difference between gay sinners and straight sinners. That's a tool of the devil to discourage gays and to make straights feel better about themselves - "at least I'm not like THAT sinner!" Luke 18:11

  24. Virtually everyone agrees that we owe others love, including those with whom we disagree (Romans 13:8-10). The question outstanding is, how do we express that love?

    Much is promoted and practiced under the garb of love. A discerning Spirit is required to determine what is of Heavenly origin (1 John 4:1). Truth tellers need not be offended by investigation or challenge. Godly love is not always ‘nice,’ but it is always wise, and more importantly always Spirit directed. When we lean on the arm of flesh, thinking we have the template to deal with ‘sin’ or ‘error’ cases we will likely make mistakes.

    Before starting a ‘gay’ ministry, inviting homosexuals into the home, patronizing ‘gay’parties, watching ‘gay consciousness’ movies (which include questionable content), etc. we do well to ask Jehovah not just how, but if we should even get involved in such. There is a way that seems right, but…(Proverbs 14:12, 13). Jesus was radical, but He never led Himself (Luke 4:1). Those who draw close to Christ learn to distrust themselves, and constantly seek for guidance from the Higher Power.

    A distinction is to be made between an individual and an agenda or movement. For example, SDA’s love fellow Protestants, but reject apostate Protestantism, understanding the anti-Christ agenda. The Serpent’s assault is first subtle, then violent. Satan would have us treat his attack on God’s institutions and order as light matters, and use ‘guilt trips’ – “you don’t love me” and charges of phobia, as is common in the media, to propel the brethren in a certain direction.

    Some believe that sinners, as we all are, have no business calling sin as it is, because that is judging (of course that only applies to certain sins). So Law defenders should be quiet and get out of the way of progress, so the work can be finished. We can play it ‘safe’ to save our souls, or fix our minds to please God, whether or not we are counted worthy to go to Heaven. Who is it that gave us our commission? We answer to the spirit which leads us. With the best of intentions and while loving the Lord we may still be used by an alien spirit as Peter discovered at least twice (Matthew 16:22, 23; John 18:10, 11). Self-confident Peter learned to distrust himself. It becomes us to adopt such a posture and to be sober and vigilant (1 Peter 5:8)

    So how do we express that love? Ask the Holy Spirit and trust Him.

    • Hugh, I wish you would address the question of whether or not Jesus would associate with gay people.

      As it is, you seem to oppose the message of my post which advocated acting like Jesus would, and I did imply that Jesus would, indeed, associate with gay people. I did not advocate that every reader "start a gay ministry." That is for individuals to decide, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And it's usually only feasible in larger cities where there is a sizable gay community, and in such a situation it would take a great deal of wisdom indeed and a genuine understanding of the mind set of the community.

      But my question deals more with how do we treat people whom we expect to be gay. Should we shun them? Should we make clear that we don't want to see them in church? Or should we love them the way we love our family and friends? Should we make them feel welcome?

      What would Jesus do? That is my question.

      It seems to me that the way we relate to gay people should be the way Jesus related to people and the way we should relate to all people:

      Christ’s method alone will give true success in reaching the people. The Saviour mingled with men as one who desired their good. He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, and won their confidence. Then He bade them, “Follow Me.”

      There is need of coming close to the people by personal effort. If less time were given to sermonizing, and more time were spent in personal ministry, greater results would be seen. The poor are to be relieved, the sick cared for, the sorrowing and the bereaved comforted, the ignorant instructed, the inexperienced counseled. We are to weep with those that weep, and rejoice with those that rejoice. Accompanied by the power of persuasion, the power of prayer, the power of the love of God, this work will not, cannot, be without fruit. (Ellen White, Ministry of Healing, p. 143)

      How do you see it?

      You wrote, "A distinction is to be made between an individual and an agenda or movement," but it is not clear that you made such a distinction.

      • Inge,
        Firstly, thanks for acknowledging my comment and the opportunity to

        1. - The short answer to your main question is Yes, Jesus would
          associate with gay people.
        2. - Hang-out is generally a more loaded term and the sentiments of
          the article appeared to go beyond normal association we have with
          fellow sinners. Appropriate limits are to be observed subject to
          context or circumstances, and more importantly the Spirit’s leading.
        3. - All, including the unrepentant and those who break the law of
          the land are welcome to church. Everyone is to be encouraged to come to
          the place of hope. And kindness is to be shown.
        4. - If one is certain about how to relate to our gay friends then
          he/she may proceed. Still we are not obligated to observe the
          convictions of others. We answer for our own.
        5. - We can be wrong in our views (all of us). It behooves us to
          adopt a teachable spirit and a submissive attitude to the Holy Spirit.
          We do not always know what Jesus would do. And some things we should
          not try without special direction and maybe a 40-day fast in the desert.
        6. - Regarding “Christ’s method alone…” is SSNET Christ’s method?
          How about mass evangelism which is responsible for most conversions to
          SDA? What about Pentecost then, and the one we anticipate? The EGW
          quote needs to be properly applied or it will contradict what she says
          elsewhere. It is not our imperfect “goodness” (passing for the goodness
          of God) which effects change. It is the Holy Spirit. That is the
          goodness which is efficacious.
        7. - Most people who came into contact with Jesus actually rejected
          Him (Jews). Many today, including in church admire Jesus, but have no
          desire to truly repent or surrender. Good works are overrated in
          relation to salvation. It is easy to run ahead of God thinking we have
          the formula to save. Contrary to popular opinion God does not need us
          to save others. He includes us in the plan to develop our characters.
        8. - Individuals we should reach out to. At the same time we ought
          not to ignore the realities of the wider society, and the powerful gay
          movement (supposedly outcasts) sweeping the world and at times
          punishing high profile dissenters (financially). They are equipped with
          clever recruiting and marketing tools (and videos) and are much better
          known than SDA’s (the real outcasts). Our words and actions may
          unintentionally provide enabling force.
        9. - Explaining away, rationalizing, excusing and justifying certain
          deviant conduct which is at best questionable satisfies the agenda of
          the enemy of souls. Outright endorsement (which may be down the road)
          is a part of the plan. Downplaying the sins of sexual perversion in
          Sodom plays into the narrative of, “It’s not that bad. Really it’s
          okay.” Intimating that abomination is too strong a term or should be
          avoided in describing this or any sin might make some feel better. Yet
          a need for change is not aroused by comfort, but discomfort. Pride,
          including gay pride is prevalent because it is seen as normal, and not
        10. - We are all born with defects (whether bio-chemical or
          otherwise). We need not pet those defects and boldly wear labels
          associated with sinful tendencies. Jesus works to correct these, to
          restore the image of God in those who would confess, not cover up. If
          it is impossible to change then the god served must not be all that
        11. - What is ennobling about hoisting a gay banner and inserting the
          label in the God-inspired name of the SDA church? Is this not an
          affront to God?
        12. - There is more but brevity is already exhausted. More anon.
    • Hugh,
      We all have a struggle. The gay issue is just a great big metaphor for the struggle in all of us as we go through life and try to represent Christ.

      • Larry,
        "just a great big metaphor," meaning nothing more, not a serious or real issue? Are there other metaphors we are getting unnecessarily worked up about, like sunday laws and time of trouble?

        If we see little need to stand up (faithful) in the least, what reason do we have to believe we will stand up (faithful) in the greater tests (Luke 16:10; Jeremiah 12:5))? Whether right or wrong in understanding those who are not convicted cannot be expected to respond. The others have something to think about.

  25. Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. Do gay people, feel,think,or know they are lost? Do they desire repentance, or would they come to Him for acceptance?

    • Jesus told several parables that tell of seeking the lost:

      He told of the parable of the prodigal son, who knew he was lost and returned to the Father's house.

      He told the parable of the sheep which was frightened and lost, but didn't know what to do about it. The Shepherd had to go find that lamb, and He did.

      And He told the parable of the lost coin. It didn't know it was lost, but it was greatly missed until it was found.

      Jesus came to this world, seeking not only the lost son, but also the lost sheep and the lost coin.

      He came to save not only those who know they are lost, but also those who do not know they are lost. Those not knowing they were lost sensed their soul need in the presence of His holiness. It is Christ's desire that we reflect His character to the world around us, so that those who don't know they are lost will sense their "lostness" and feel His love drawing them to Himself. That can only be done if we "hang out" with people we consider lost. We must get close enough to them to understand them and love them, and they must see the character of Christ reflected through us, however dimly that might be.

  26. Yes, Jesus mingled with all classes of people but at every point He came in changes occurred in the lives of the repentant. Most turned away from their sinful life-style to adapt to the life-style required by Jesus and those who would not change walked themselves away from Jesus - Mary, the woman at the well, Zaccheaus, Matthew, Peter, the demon possessed, etc all turned back to love Jesus and His ministry dearly while the likes of Judas rather turned away further into sin. Jesus, His love, life-style, desires and works must be spoken everywhere. The repentant gay will identify with Jesus in newness of life. The unrepentant may choose to walk away. However, we are duty bound to keep praying on behalf of such.

  27. The church is the hospital for sinners. We all understand that we are sinners but the difference among us is the ones who are struggling not to be and others justifying sins. As We are living in the world of sin, I'll be judgmental to treat bad a gay and treat well a known adulterer.Again, to give a gay special attention, I'll be wrong as to promote sin. We need to tell the fact that sin is sin, whether it is homosexuality or theft of all kind.
    Jesus is very merciful to us and we are needed to show mercy to others.

  28. Dear Inge Anderson, I read your article on would JESUS CHRIST hang out with "HOMOSEXUALS". The answer to that question is emphatically NO!!! Why? Because the majority of Homosexuals don't think that their "Life-Style" is a "SIN" against "GOD" and they have no intention of "Repenting". As you can see they need people, to see, feel, and understand their point of view, instead of "GOD'S invitation, to "Repent" and "Surrender" their life unto the "LAMB of GOD" that was sacrificed to save them from the condition that Lucifer, Satan, the Demon, put them in.. They latterly run from Jesus Christ, but they claim all of "HIS" promises, without surrendering to any of them. Finally don't get Bamboozled, by the Spiritual Disguise, of Satan, after all he much stronger than you; you need JESUS

    • Deacon, I would disagree with the fact that many "don't think that their life-style is a sin against God". The only sinners who cannot be convicted are those who once were but refused to act on it. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of "sin, and of righteousness and of judgment". Jesus did not err in this statement and all sinners are made to understand their danger in persisting to do evil before God.

      While many will SAY they don't believe, the truth is in Jesus and not men. If we find pleasure in unrighteousness and love not the truth(meaning that we recognize it is truth) we will become delusional and believe lies eventually (2 Thess 2:10-12). But it is a choice, not true ignorance. This is not to say all people understand all truth, but each is convicted of their present danger and if they follow this conviction, more light will follow as they advance in the truth.

      Perhaps you view the idea of "hanging out with" in a different way than Inge does, and I think she is meaning in the manner of Jesus, who mingled among sinners without being a sinner Himself, and never encouraging them in their sin. He called sinners to repentance and does this still through the Holy Spirit dwelling in His servants.

      To me the main point is Jesus never uttered condemnation (John 3:17, etc) but made holiness and righteousness clearly demonstrated and revealed the love and mercy of God towards sinners. Most will reject, but do we know which ones? We are not to judge, but witness. God will teach each of His servants how to be effective in their witness. (Act 1:8)

      Our mandate is to sow the seeds of Truth in righteousness, everywhere.

    • All of them are running from Jesus? Do you know all of them? How can you say that. How else can they be saved unless Jesus is with them. Read John 17:3. Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. There is help for all!

    • Hello Deacon God Bless You. You say Jesus would not hang out with homosexuals and you seem quite certain there. Well if homosexuals are not worthy to hang out with Jesus then neither am I or you for that matter. Why? Because we are all sinners and continue to be. Pride there's a sin, how many people are full of pride? So full they don't even know it and continue with prideful acts and thoughts. How many times do people covet without realizing? People do these things all the time. How many people gossip at church? How many people in church are having affairs? How many women and children been molested and raped by pastors in every denomination, and nothing is done about it? How many people go to church, behave and say all the right things, but live in secret sin? How many repent but then still keep on committing the same sins over and over again? We all sin. Isn't that one of the reasons Jesus died, to take on our sins? To cover us and save us?

      One of the biggest sins is rejecting people who are seeking God. Think about it. You and me who are sinners telling someone else they are not worthy because of their sin. None of us have that right; only God does. Deacon, we all need Jesus all the time 24/7

      I have to disagree with you on this statement..............
      (majority of Homosexuals don't think that their "Life-Style" is a "SIN" against "GOD" and they have no intention of "Repenting".)

      Where did you come up with that? Did you take a poll? Only God knows one's heart. Assumption's mean nothing and get you nowhere. God died for all of us, he didn't die for everyone except homosexuals, none of us are less special in the eyes of God. We are all worthy and loved by the greatest love, God. Have a blessed day.

  29. I get you Inge. Thank you so much for the powerful article and links! What I've derived from this article is let us not rush to condemn but rather let us show love. Christs love rather than to segregate, for Christ came not to condemn but to save " John 3:17" rather let's speak the truth in LOVE.

  30. I have watched the movie all the way to the part of learning who is Jennifer Knapp. I get the idea that we should be loving and encouraging people of all walks of life to come to the feet of Jesus. What do we do then after that? Do we tell them they are wrong? Or do we tell them they are right?

    I am hoping we are inviting them in so that they will be converted, not to continue on their life. Sin is a choice. Righteousness is a choice. This issue is not just homosexuality in a vacuum. Observe the churches and the people that was shown on the movie. Earrings, rings, drum sets, electric guitars. To some of us this is no big deal. Yet some of us knows there is another kind of bell ringing. I lived in Columbus,OH, area for about a year. That is not the same Worthington SDA church that I have attended. It is true that one error leads to another.

  31. I remember a student telling me his story about how he felt as a child, knowing that he was somehow different to other boys. As he grew it dawned on him that he was attracted to the same gender. He was torn between his feelings and what he was taught by his church. During his teens, he was baptised to "wash it all away". The next day he found he still had the same feelings and learn to live with them.

    A friend of mine had a daughter who confided in her in her late teens that she had same gender attractions. It is the stuff of a parent's nightmare. Do you think that mother ever stopped loving that daughter?

    I can tell you story after story of gender challenged folk both inside and outside the church. There is one thread that is common to all. They did not choose to be attracted to the same gender. As one woman said to me, "Do you seriously think that I would chose a life of conflicting emotions and moral decisions? There is nothing I would like more to be rid of it. But I am what I am and I have learned to accept myself as I am."

    Some of the stories break one's heart; attempted marriages, searching for companionship, loneliness, depression, and for some, (far to many) suicide.

    It may surprise some of us that compassion without judgement is the best way to treat this problem. All of us need a listening ear, a comforting touch, a shared prayer, irrespective of our particular sin damaged condition. Or are we too comfortable with our socially acceptable sins of pride and selfishness?

    • "Compassion without judgement" which is exactly what our Heavenly Father shows us, "His compassion's are new every morning." Hard to imagine, when you think of how sinful our nature is. Judging anyone for any reason, leaves you open to be judged, God forbid.

  32. Yesterday I posted your article on my facebook wall. I also put a plea out to people to be more loving towards homosexuals, many of whom will admit that what they are doing is wrong in God's sight. The struggle is VERY real for many of them and maybe if they were shown mercy and love they would get the strength that they need to accept Christ's power to change their lives and do what is right.

    Two professed Christians proceeded to brow beat me with scriptures and accusations about gays which had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. I became very concerned and I started deleting their comments for fear that some struggling homosexual, someone who truly only needed a kind word would be hurt. My deleting their comments made them even more persistent but I refused to be bulldozed into anything but making my point, which was that ALL homosexuals should be shown the love of God! In the end I had to actually block one of them because he totally invaded my space with his barrage of comments and I believe the other person (who is SDA) may have unfriended me.

    I hold no animosity for them, and now I have a little taste of what it must be like to be homosexual but I maintain- Jesus hung out for three years with a lying, thieving traitor. In fact he called him his FRIEND. Whenever we think of turning your back on anyone living a life of sin, remember that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ not only loved us but he DIED for us. The greatest of these is L-O-V-E.

    • Barbara, I find it so encouraging when people "get it" - that is get the point I was trying to make, which is that "that ALL homosexuals should be shown the love of God," not just the reformed ones.

      (And I note that a number of others commenting "got it" too. Thank you all. Perhaps I'll get around to responding later.)

      And, yes, you now have a little taste of what it is like to live with a homosexual orientation - whether or not the person is celibate or sexually active.

      I know people with same-sex attraction who have been celibate all their lives, yet they feel the sting when the preachers thunder from the pulpit about the "sin of homosexuality." Among other things, the preachers don't seem to understand the difference between a homosexual orientation and homosexual sex. If they are going to preach against gay sex, they have a biblical basis for it, just as much as preaching against fornication, adultery, divorce and remarriage. But for some reason they generally pick out only one of the biblical prohibitions. Why might that be? Is it easier to pick on a small group who are not big financial backers than to preach against something that might be relevant to members of the congregation? To me, it smacks of encouraging the attitude of the Pharisee who prayed, "Lord I thank you that I am not like that publican," and God could not justify him, while the publican went to his home justified. (Luke 18:11-14)

      And in the comments under my post, it is evident that people here do not distinguish between loving people and approving of all they do. If we cannot love sinners without approving of all they do, we will have very few people left to love - very few people towards whom we can practice the command of Jesus to "love one another as I have loved you." I believe it is this lack of love that marks the church of Laodicea. It is time for us to accept the remedy from Christ, and when we do, I am sure He will pour His love into our hearts, so it will spill over to all around us and not just a chosen few. (See Rev 3:17-18)

      I am also happy that you recognize that it is the love of God that leads to repentance, and that if we are really concerned that gay people need to repent, then we need to demonstrate the love of God to them. Calls to repentance that are not preceded by a demonstration of the love of Christ may just be a matter of joining the devil in his work. After all he is the "accuser," and I believe he accuses people of their sinful condition to lead them to despair and eventual suicide. What must Christ feel when professed Seventh-day Adventist Christians join Satan in this work of destruction?

      By calling ourselves Christians, we represent Jesus Christ to the world. What kind of a picture of Christ are we showing to the world? That was my main point.

      It matters how we treat gay people - not just for their sake, but for God's sake, because we demonstrate to the world what kind of God we serve. Is it one who writes off whole segments of the population as just being too disgusting to save, or does He bend down in infinite love to save even the very lowest?

      And I'm not saying that gay people are the "lowest," but some professed Christians seem to believe it, and I'm saying that even if their assumption is true, then, we must still consider how Christ would treat gay people and do likewise. And that would make a whole lot of difference in the world.

      Incidentally, it seems pretty clear that some comments come from people who don't know any gay people up close but draw their conclusions from gay pride parades or something similar. That is akin to judging the lives of straight people from the hedonistic Mardis Gras celebrations. In each case there are people who live a certain indulgent lifestyle for a few days or most of their lives. But they do not represent all gay people or all straight people.

      But in the end, it doesn't matter. Christ associated with the most hardened sinners, and in the warmth of His love, their hearts were melted.

      • The question is, are gay people hanging around with Jesus?

        In the first resurrection who will Jesus hang around with? How about the second resurrection?

        Recently read that "There are souls perplexed with doubt, burdened with infirmities, weak in faith, and unable to grasp the Unseen; but a friend whom they can see, coming to them in Christ's stead, can be a connecting link to fasten their trembling faith upon Christ." {DA 297.2} We all have a work to do to prepare those with the help of the Holy Spirit to a place where sin will no longer exist.

  33. I am an evangelist, and every time me and my wife are invited by a local minister or whom ever to hold meetings, we welcome every body including Gay people.
    All of us are sinners and we need a saver.

  34. [Moderator's Note: Please us full names when commenting. Comments without full names may not be published. Thank you.]

    Jesus came for sinners. Anyone who acknowledge her or his sinful condition and need of a savior came to Him and none he turn away. But those who did not belief and plots for His destruction, according to the holy scripture, Jesus did not give His heart to them, He withdrew from them. So it is today. all who heard His voice and come to Him shall be received. Matt 11:28-30; Jesus did not hang out with sinners but rather sinners who acknowledge their need of Him came to Him. The church doors are open to whoever everyone but to be a member of the church is a spiritual relationship to God through baptism. Read Church Manual Revised 2005 17th edition page 30.

  35. I believe the Gospel is about walking in and living in, Jesus shoes. Surrendering our will to Him and allowing Him to live out His life in me. The reality of doing this is, do I reject my sister or niece or indeed, others who, like them, struggle with their sexual orientation, or do I, like Jesus, love them even more? A galvanising subject indeed that brings out the best and worst in our sinful humanity, but thank you Jesus for the Cross and His eternal forgiveness. Remember Matthew 7:1-5, for those who would chose to judge...whether gay or straight, we all will come on bended knee before our Lord and Master, to account for our actions. So, do we do as Jesus did and would have us do, or do we sit in judgment? Blessings ulalei

  36. We don't need to judge anybody but Jesus told us the outcome of our actions and He will Judge accordingly, and by us telling somebody what Jesus said on a certain topic isn't Judging is merely saying what Jesus said.
    As has been pointed out sin is sin, however how we address it that makes the difference, notice Zacchaeaus reaction to meeting Christ, He didn't just keep on doing what he was doing but he instantly reformed, Mary was told to go and sin no more.
    Anyone that met Jesus had a massive change in their life.

    Sure we all struggle with different sins in our lives, however we need to kneel at the foot of the cross and ask for forgiveness and repent of the action and ask for strength to overcome the sin.

    Jesus said that He came to save us from our sin, not in our sin.
    We need to Hate the sin and love the sinner and this principle should be applied to every situation.
    Would I welcome a homosexual to our church? Certainly! would I condone His lifestyle? Never!
    The church is Hospital for sinners, but going to Hospital one would hope to recover.
    Jesus loves every Human ever born on this Planet But he pleads with us to change our ways and live.
    I like Paul am a chief sinner But I thank God for Jesus that I can turn to Him for Pardon and strength to help me from day to day.

    Being a sinner is not the problem, but justifying it is.
    All sin needs to be taken to Jesus and He will deal with it.

    May the Love of God fill our hearts, and ask God to help us put aside all those things that hinder us on our walk with Him.

    • Thomas, you wrote, "Anyone that met Jesus had a massive change in their life."

      So why is it that people who meet us don't have a "massive change in their life"?

      Is it perhaps because we do not follow the example of Jesus and we do not allow Him to change us first? Is it because we do not allow His love to flow through us?

      Even Paul said that it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. (Ro 2:4)

      It is not our job to produce results in other lives. It is our job to do the work of Jesus on this planet, and that is the point I'm trying to make in my post.

      (We must also remember that the change is not always for the good. When sinners encounter the Holy Spirit either through Christ directly, or through His followers, they will, indeed, change. They will change as they accept the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives, or they will change as they reject it. And the change is not always immediate.)

      • Amene Inge!

        I take from this special Scripture reference, for Jesus to make "that" change in our life we need to be as little children, to enable Him to change us. Secondly, if we don't, he cannot use us to be part of His plan to change others. Lastly, if we don't assume the humility and innocence of a "child" to make the change, we cannot enter His kingdom. Living in the reality of having members of our family who are Gay, He can change us ALL, if we let Him.
        Matthew 18:3 (AMP)
        And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven [at all].

  37. [The writer of this comment has provided a full name to the SSNET staff in accordance with our full name policy but has asked us to withhold the name due to the sensitivity of the comment. While in most cases a full name is required to publish, request has been granted since this is a very important and sensitive comment.]

    When I read this post and after watching the video, I cried.

    I am a male and have known I was gay from a very young age. I am currently celibate. But I have had two failed heterosexual marriages. During those marriages I remained physically faithful to my partners. Mentally faithful had always been a challenge. I keep my feelings to myself out of fear of not being accepted.

    I was sexually abused by a church member at the age of 11. I was indecently assaulted and taunted by church kids my own age because I had no inclination to date girls during my mid to late teens.

    Some of the comments posted here vindicate the fear that I have. Other comments I find encouraging.

    The bible story of the woman being dragged before Jesus to be judged often comes to mind and in that story I find solace. It was the church leaders who dragged that woman before him. From what I have read of Ellen White's books, it was Mary Magdaline who was dragged before Jesus. Elsewhere in the Bible we have Jesus dining at the place of Simon the leper whom Jesus had healed. Ellen White points out that Simon, a church leader, helped lead Mary into sin and was still very judgemental about the sort of woman she was. Jesus makes a very important point. The one who has been forgiven the most, loves the most.

    The reality is that both Simon and Mary are both sinners. Mary knows to what depths she had to be lifted up from. Obviously Simon does not. Simon doesn't think his sin is as bad as Mary's. Mary knows where she has been and what she has been forgiven of.

    I relate to Mary. I see myself in Mary's shoes being dragged before the Saviour because of who I am.

    Have you ever considered what the Lords Prayer says about forgiveness? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Unless we learn to forgive, we are not going to heaven. We can only learn to forgive after learning how to love. The one who has been forgiven the most, loves the most.

    My saviour has taught me how to forgive. It is how I found healing for the things I have suffered. But I am still gay. God has not changed this. I cry as I type this.

    Have you learned to forgive? Have you really learned to forgive?

    Your getting to heaven depends on it.

    • Hello David,

      I feel your pain and in truth, those of us who have never had to struggle with what your experience is all about, never will know what it is like to be in your shoes. But praise the Lord for His righteousness for He covers our shortcomings and renews us perfect! He loved that one sheep that He left the ninety-nine to pursue and look until He found him or her to bring them back to Him. We all at some point in our walk in this life, have been that "one sheep" but by the Grace of God, we are saved.

      I hear you loud and crystal clear, what your plea for those of us who need to be compassionate and understanding towards others who don't fit into the conventional mould, like gay people. Who struggle like you and my sister and my niece and many gay people who love the Lord. Forgiveness is a an important part of our salvation, why? Because as God's precious Word tells us, unless we first forgive, we cannot be part of His kingdom! Period. No if's or maybe's or but's. So for those of us who are judgmental about gay people, who will never really understand what it is like to by gay, unless of course you are prepared to "walk" in their shoes! -- first remove the "plank" in your own eye, before trying to remove the speck of dust from our gay brethren's eye.

      Mark 11:25-26 And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and [g]let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your [own] failings and shortcomings and let them drop.

      26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings.

      God bless and keep you David, my sister, my niece and others walking with Jesus, who are Gay. Like us ALL, the one sheep that Jesus came to save...God's richest blessings! ulalei

  38. We need to be very careful to avoid the slippery slope towards compromise; the same God who walked this earth destroyed Sodom whose PRINCIPAL sin led to the naming of the perversion that is sodomy! God loves and is long-suffering but He judges as well -- I said He(God)judges!

    Note, Jesus never "hung out" with people that were hostile to the gospel ... which is why he rarely hung out at a Pharisee's home: this is very important. And when we "hang out", are we telling souls about the love of Jesus and His call for them to be BORN AGAIN? If you really love the soul for which Christ died, you'll never be comfortable leaving them languishing in their sin. ALL sinners must be BORN AGAIN.

    The true object of life is ministry. Our duties as members of The Lord's remnant church are: firstly, to develop a personal relationship with God (through prayer, bible study); and while we submit ourselves to the convicting & converting influence of the Holy Spirit, we are commanded to fulfill the gospel commission (yes the gospel commission is a command, but if you love Jesus you'll do His commandments): and remember unity is essential for the outpouring of The Holy Spirit; it's part of the devil's aim to split the church over issues that don't amount to a hill of beans.
    The gospel is to be preached to all -- gays included. Jesus preached the gospel to all the sinners he "hung out" with -- preached it in LOVE (Jesus is only sinless person to ever walk the earth -- and this (the preaching of the gospel in love) accounted for all the radical transformations The Lord brought to the lives of the sinners He came in contact with.

    Remember the true of life (our lives) is MINISTRY; also, we owe EVERY sinner sincere prayer, regardless of the sin that's manifest. When we minister to a soul, The Holy Spirit will provide the wisdom and the correct approach; our duty is submit to Him. Our church is mandated (by The Creator of the Universe) to be in the business of soul-winning (even if the members don't live up to the mandate .. the rocks will cry out). Peace....

  39. I just wanted to tell "David Gay" that I cried when I read his story because I feel what he feels. Not because I am gay, but because ten years ago I was inflicted with a condition that has no treatment and no cure. It is known in the medical world as (PSAD) Persistent Sexual Arousal Disorder. When it started I did not know what was happening to me and I gave in to the symptoms however and when I could just to releive myself of the aweful intrusive and unwanted feelings that I had absolutely no control over. The symptoms of arousal come in unwanted times and places, are not initiated by anything external, are unwated intrusive, and UNRELNTING! It would go on for hours, sometimes days, at work, at the foodstore, at home, everywhere and even after it was relieved, it would begin all over again within seconds! For years I visited doctors, I read articles, I participated in studies, and I joined a support group online. The condition can lead to thoughts of suicide and I often wished I could just die....Finally 4 years ago I accepted Christ. When I realized what power I had in Christ I started to pray and fast diligently, knowing that he would rid me of this dreaded unwanted scourage. To this day, God has NOT taken it away but he keeps reminding me that HIS GRACE IS SUFFICENT! I still have PSAD but I am single so I am completely celibate. Sometimes I cry out to him and ask him WHY!? WHY ME!!? But in spite of the fact that I have not been cured, I hold fast, knowing that there is a purpose for my suffering. I feel empowered because while I still suffer, the condition no longer controls me. I control it through the power of Jesus Christ. I also feel as if he has allowed me to experience this so that I can be more sensitive to people like "David Gay". I feel as if I know David's struggle intimately and I understand his pain. HANG IN THERE David! Stay doing God's will. Do not give in to your desires. God will give you the strength. HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT!! I love you, and Jesus loves you more!

  40. We humans do have a tendency to go overboard in our enthusiasm for our causes, and that is not all bad, but I caution that in our attempts to demonstrate Christ's love for ALL sinners we don't become like the church at Corinth. It is well for us to remember that only as we see the perfection of Christ and our imperfections (as in sins) that we come to see our immense and indispensible need for a Savior, the only Savior - Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

  41. In my 20s I fell deeply in love with a girl who stole my heart. She had suffered abuse earlier by a couple men AND A WOMAN in her life. Then suddenly she started drifting away, leaving me little clues on purpose that she was lesbian. Being naive it took me a while. The night I confronted her and she confessed, my whole world was shattered! I knew if things had not happened in her life she would not have chosen this lifestyle. I went home and that night I banged my fist against the walls and cried out to God "Why did you allow those things to happen to her that let her turn out like this!" My grief was more over her salvation than our relationship. And I was frustrated with a God who would allow her to be abused and then condemn her for her choices.

    Jesus told Nicodemus "God did not send His Son to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17

    I observed that gay bashing has no redeeming value. You can either redeem or condemn. You can't do both. Guilt tells us we need to change. Condemnation tells us there is no hope for change. The Holy Spirit brings guilt with a hope for change. Satan brings condemnation which only leads to hopeless despair. Myself, and the church made it clear that we did not condone her lifestyle, but we did not have to stop associating with her, she stopped associating with us. We let her know we would always be her friend we just wold not condone her lifestyle.

    After a few years she left her partner and came back to God. She married and now has a family. She told me a few years ago on the phone that she always appreciated my friendship, because while she knew I did not approve, she never felt condemnation. She felt redeeming love. A love that went beyond romance and physical attraction as I loved her soul more than anything else. I spent entire nights crying and praying, not for our relationship but for her salvation.

    I have known this woman my entire life. This story covers a lifetime. I have seen what redeeming love can do and I have seen the damage condemnation brings. She is living a new life with a beautiful family because her God and her church redeemed her instead of condemning her.

    To me, the perfect ending would have been for us to get back together, but God did not write the story that way. Still I have learned so much from our friendship that has helped me help others find forgiveness and a new victorious life in Jesus! And I am thankful that we are still friends and though hundreds of miles away her family are my friends too!

    • Thank you so much for sharing, William. 🙂

      It seems to me that you modeled more than the love of a man for a woman. You modeled the love of Jesus: She knew you did not approve of her behavior, yet she did not feel condemned! And I'm guessing it was the memory of this love of God demonstrated through you that brought her back to God.

      She is living a new life with a beautiful family because her God and her church redeemed her instead of condemning her.

      A beautiful demonstration of how God can love others through people fully surrendered to Him. Thank you!

  42. God is love. It is so much greater than what we can really comprehend. It's unlimited. It's without measure. His love embraces every single person. Because of his great love, he will sit with any gay person, hold them and show them his unconditional love.

    This is what is lacking in the church. Instead of showing love, all the gay person sees is insensitive Christians who shows all the traits of modern day Pharisees - "I thank God, I'm not one of these people." This, dear Pharisees in the church, is hurtful, distressing and sickening. Unless you have walked in the shoes of our LGBT Christian members, you don't know what you are talking about. Please, modern day Pharisees, God loves you too, just as He loves all is gay children. The greatest sin pride and self righteousness. Lack of showing God's unconditional love is causing the pews to empty and driving folks away from church .

  43. Of course Jesus would hang out with gay people. He would hug them, socialize with them and not feel threatened by the stares or remarks he would get.

    But nothing in the Gospels suggests that Jesus said to Mary or Zacchaeus, "It's OK what you did." Maybe he would say, "I understand your weakness, the power of a fallen nature." He would never condemn them for something they were born with, but maybe he would encourage them, like everyone else not to be a victim, dragged to and fro by their natural tendencies. Maybe that is the message they would hear from Him.

  44. I've notice the term "Judgmental" used frequently and I wonder at times what the writer means by it.

    If someone is a thief, by me saying that Jesus condemns thieving, is that Judgmental?
    I don't think so,firstly is not I But Christ that said it.
    we are supposed to sound a clear message not a confusing one.
    I believe that How we do it is what makes the difference.

    We should always show our love and genuine concern for the offender.
    Our duty is to show the Love of Jesus but in saying that we also need to point out that Jesus love prompts Change and if that change doesn't take place eventually we will have to pay for that sin.
    I'm not talking about the struggle that we have with sin, as we all struggle, and we are always invited to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find help in time of need,

    However we don't say Thieving is fine, we get on our knees and ask for forgiveness and strength to overcome, and as He stated "if we confess our sin He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
    the process for forgiveness is the same it doesn't matter if the sin is thieving, adultery, or homosexuality.
    We as Christians don't point out sin to say Hey I'm better than you, that is Judgmental.
    However as Christians for our love and concern for our Brother or sister if we see something not right we should mention it in love.

    At least I would hope that if I was doing something wrong That someone loved me enough to come to me and tell me.

    We are not to Judge However God has Given us instructions on rights and wrongs and in that sense He is the Judge "Thus said the LORD not I"

    We are all running the same race, we are all trying to reach the destination, in this race there are no competitors we are all working together helping each other not wanting that any should perish but that all reach the destination, Eternity with Jesus and each other. Amen

  45. [Moderator note: Thank you for your comment, but please use first and last name when commenting on this site.]
    Umm, God is NEVER going to send them their same-sex soulmate. Homosexuality is a sin and God would never fulfill or answer that "prayer".

    I think we should treat everyone with kindness and decency but NEVER condone the sin or make them feel comfortable about their sins.
    If I'm sinning, I want something to speak up and let me know. Iron sharpens iron. We aren't to condone each other sins but try to lead each other on the pathway of Truth and Righteousness. Don't be comfortable in sin but do something about it. I know that their feelings of same-sex attraction can be overcome. It's been done before!! and NOTHING is impossible with God. Nothing.

  46. "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you're not saved yourself, be sure of that!" Charles H. Spurgeon.

    Believers, let us not forget the very purpose of Jesus' ministry: to seek and save the lost (John 19:10). Just as He was driven by love to save a fallen race, so should we reflect this same love to all kinds of "lost people" including the gay. If we truly have the love of Christ, we would seek and pray for their salvation above all else. How do we this? By the way of love. In case you think you think I mean "coddling", please prayerfully read 1 Corinthians 13.

    I believe Jesus would definitely have been/would be found in the company of the gay, for the purpose of their discipleship and salvation.

    Let us desire that they know God more than anything else through and remember that the ground is level at the cross.

  47. I have thinking a lot about this topic and after reading carefully all the comments and opinions, this is what I think. Jesus won't accept to hang out with gays. And we should not forget that whenever he met a sinners, He told them to forsake their sin full ways and follow. Remember what he told peter and James! Leave your nets and follow me.

    However if Jesus comes down today and one gay person asks, Jesus I am gay would you accept me? Jesus won't say to that person oh yah I watched the movie about gay Adventist and learn how to accept gays, lets go hang out! He will absolutely say forsake your sin full nature and follow me.

    However, there is one thing said about gay brains, the way it is explained to me it sounds like God is not a perfect creator he can creates brains that lead to sin full behaviors. God did not create homosexuality in us he created perfect men and women who choose to sin and disobey him. We should not let ourselves deceived by movies LET US SPEND TIME learning about jesus love from the bible. He was kind enough to confront a Samaritan woman and she was willing to repent, he did not support Mary to continue to prostitute or even give in to Judas because he knew he was going to commit suicide. Remember the spirit of prophecy says in the last days the devil will deceive even the elect. Be blessed.

    • Dear Angel,

      I'm not sure your concerns have received a response, so I will do my best to address them.

      You wrote:

      Jesus won't accept to hang out with gays. And we should not forget that whenever he met a sinners, He told them to forsake their sin full ways and follow.

      I assume you believe that Jesus would not associate with gays because they are too sinful. If that were true, none of us would have a hope! When He walked this planet, Jesus associated with the worst of sinners to demonstrate His love to them, and many of them repented in the sunshine of His love.

      I don't believe you can demonstrate from the Bible that "whenever he met a sinners, He told them to forsake their sin full ways and follow." He spoke very little about sin. He spoke a whole lot more about the Kingdom of heaven. He became the friend of sinners so that sinners might be drawn to Him.

      However if Jesus comes down today and one gay person asks, Jesus I am gay would you accept me? Jesus won't say to that person oh yah I watched the movie about gay Adventist and learn how to accept gays, lets go hang out! He will absolutely say forsake your sin full nature and follow me.

      Jesus doesn't have to watch movies to understand gays. And if He asked them to forsake their sinful nature, He would ask the same of you and me. And we would all be lost, because we cannot forsake our sinful nature. We can only forsake our sins, as Jesus gives us the power.

      However, there is one thing said about gay brains, the way it is explained to me it sounds like God is not a perfect creator he can creates brains that lead to sin full behaviors. God did not create homosexuality in us he created perfect men and women who choose to sin and disobey him.

      Research has demonstrated that gay brains are different. And we now have good evidence that it is not the result of homosexual behavior, but the cause of it. People are born with a predisposition to homosexuality in the make-up of their brains. Although this, alone will not make them gay, when a couple other factors -- such as an emotionally distant father or some kind of abuse -- are combined with the brain factor, the person will turn out gay without their having any choice in the matter.

      God made Adam and Eve perfect, but He didn't make you and me perfect. We all have some imperfections both visible and invisible. It's the result of the degeneration of humanity since the Fall. God doesn't blame us for our condition. Instead He came to save us from it. Gays as well as straights can accept salvation and enter heaven on the merits of Christ alone. Gratitude for such undeserved favor will cause us to want to honor Christ with obedience to His laws. He supplies the power for obedience.

  48. I am thankful for the testimony of people who testified that they are struggling with inclinations and thoughts which they have not overcome. I want to say specifically to those two people (if we read the comments we would see their testimonies)that God's grace is sufficient for you. Keep your hands in His and he will do the rest. If, like He said to the Apostle Paul, he would not remove the thorns in your flesh, His grace is still sufficient.

    Now to the other faithful SDAs who think that we must overcome before Christ can save us. I am thinking about a whoremongering leader by the name of Samson whom He saved even in the throes of his suicide. I am wondering if Samson had overcome his whoremongering thoughts before he died. He obviously did not overcome them shortly before because he slipped back into sin after judging the people of God for about 20 years. What I am sure about is that God saved him, because his name is mentioned in the Hall of Fame in Hebrews. If he had not overcome his whoremongering thoughts and God saved him, then how can we limit God's ability to save the gay person who has not overcome his inclinations when God returns?

    • Struggling against natural inclination is not sin. Yielding to temptation and transgressing God's law is sin. We are born sinners and through faith in God's grace are able to gain the victory over sin. Faith leads to a full surrender of our own will and accepting God's will. We are told to "fight the good fight" and to be found "striving against sin". "Draw near to God" and "resist the devil" are not just passive ideas to only be mentally accepted.

      We cannot make assumptions concerning what is not revealed. It took a long while for Samson's hair to grow again, longer than the brief account in Judges takes to read, and his prayer of faith tells me he had confidence in God's salvation and acceptance of his complete repentance. Just put yourself in his place, doing the work of a beast with your eyes gone. I can't imagine he didn't see much more clearly his sin, keeping in mind that the Holy Spirit was ever-present.

  49. Thank you for this blog. My younger son and I watched this last night. It truly makes you think about how others feel who society would deem as an outcast. I have learned a long time ago to always love others no matter what they do or who they are as a person and we teach our children that as well. I was put to the test last summer on practicing what I preached. I didn't have to deal with the issue of homosexuality, but with the murder of my brother by another inmate that made national news. I had to forgive him, love him, and accept him as someone needing the love of Jesus. So, I know the need of exemplifying love to others no matter what, I must be like my Savior. This is going to be an Ays program for our church . We have youth and adults who are struggling with this and also family members and friends. We are going to show the video and then do a discussion with a panel of the local pastors, Ay leader and youth.

    • I definitely agree with doing this program for AYS and involving various dept. of the church.
      We will follow through with that suggestion. Many Adventist Churches feel uncomfortable with the topic. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us through these uncharted waters.

      • Don, I suggest familiarizing yourself with material at GLAdventist.org and GLOW.cc before showing the movie and hosting a discussion so that you may be prepared to present biblical solutions during the discussion.

        The implied conclusion of the movie is that gay marriage is the solution to homosexuality. But that is a self-indulgent view which does not harmonize with Christ's call to self-denial and cross-bearing. Christ's call is the polar opposite of the thinking that "if God made me this way, He must be okay with me indulging my propensities."

        I highly recommend I recommend this vesper presentation by Pastor Michael Kelly at Oakwood University on Relationships, Opposite Sex, Same Sex, Homosexuality and ... Among other things, he deals with the relationship between David and Jonathan.

        If you cannot show both videos, I recommend choosing the one by Pastor Kelly, since it is quite balanced.

        I also recomment Rosaria Butterfield's interview on youtube for you to see - not necessarily for the AY meeting. (You'll have to decide.)

  50. Apparently the subject of our humanity, as it relates to gender and sexuality, is an area begging for more understanding, especially within the religious community. The scripture tells us that God made humans male and female (Gen 1:27), a concept that's also reinforced elsewhere in the animal and plant world. We understand that the Creator had a specific intent in mind for the male/female design which was to be "fruitful and multiply..." (Gen 1:28). We know that the physical anatomy of males and females and the attraction they feel, make this possible for the most part. We've come to expect certain behaviors to agree with a specific gender and we generally believe that behavior is a matter of our choice.

    How many of us chose our gender at birth? We just kind of found ourselves male or female...under normal circumstances. What about the abnormal circumstance when an individual is BORN, what used to be called hermaphrodite, now more commonly referred to as ambiguous genitalia? Perhaps, this physical abnormality may present us an opportunity to temper our sometimes rigid beliefs about individuals' "choices" with respect to gender attraction. Is it possible that Scripture might have been telling us something about our human nature that we might have "chosen" not to believe?(Jer 17:9 ; Jer 13:23; Isaiah 44:20). None of us have chosen our gender or skin complexion (I've chosen male and brown:)) and just maybe Scripture is telling us we don't "choose" our choices either, since the fall of Adam. Fortunately, some of our choices are "kept in line" by parental, religious and other social influences as well as our nations' legal systems while others, like the tomb-dwelling man Jesus met, can't be bound "not even with chains"(Mk 5:3-4). We're hard-wired for language but are our regional accents our "choice" or not?

    Thanks to the kindness of an almighty Creator, those of us who can as well as those who can't be bound, are presented with an opportunity for REAL freedom for ALL "those who are oppressed" (Lk 4:18 NKJV)!! Yes, we must speak the truth to each other about all aspects of our human experience that fall short of our Creator's will for us as a specie (1 Cor 6:9-10; Rev 21:8). However, we may need to be aware that our sexuality flows from the same place as our fea, lying, covetousness, drunkenness and, our old nemesis, unbelief. TRUE freedom comes to Adam's descendants when, and ONLY when, the One who declared Himself a sight-restoring, oppressed-liberating, broken-heart(mind)-healing Redeemer comes into our death experience and restores life (Lk 4:18, 21). While not all dead corpses stink, all,to be useful, NEED life. Fortunately for me I was only born brown and not with ambiguous genitalia or sexuality, but there's plenty that places me in the same place of need as homosexuals(Gal 6:1-2). Thank God, that the One who meets sinners (Lk 19:2-5) in their place of need (Philippians 2:5-8) also sends humans with minds like His (v.5) to do a similar work. Promised from the Old Testament (Ezek 11:19-20), the REALITY of the New Covenant (Heb 8:10) is indeed "good tidings of great joy which will be to ALL people"(Lk 2:10)!

  51. A lot of the posts here remind me of arguing rabbis. Truly, a lot of you know the words but you don't know the meaning.

    A woman got herself into a bit of trouble with the law over physical abuse with her kids. The police took out an AVO against her and she was not able to return home to her family until things were resolved through the courts.

    I took this woman in because she had nowhere to go. I didn't condone what she did, but I fed her and supported her for the fourteen months it took to sort this out. While she was under my roof, I did my best to make sure she maintained contact with her husband and kids. I did what I could to ensure her marriage survived this. I also prayed.

    Today she is back living with her husband and kids, she is also now a baptised member of our church. Her son was recently baptised as well.

    All I did was take her in and lived my life. When she asked questions about my faith, I said enough to satisfy her curiosity. Eyebrows were raised by some at church over this. A male church member having a non related married woman living in his house. I am sure she would have been happy for them to taker her in. I told the pastor and the elders why she was living in my house and I assured them that I was protecting this woman's fidelity with her husband.

    When she started coming to church with me, a few of the ladies took her under their wing. It was because she was loved with Christ's love that she started taking Bible studies that led to her accepting Jesus as her saviour.

    I don't want to be boastful, though this is what Christ calls us to do. Read Matthew chapters 5 through to 7. This is the expanded version of the commandments of God, Exodus 20 is only the summarised version.

    All we need to do is keep God's commandments. The summary of the summary is: Love god with all your heart and mind; Love your neighbour as yourself. This is what it is about. If other people have their agenda of selfishness, the fight becomes God's, not yours.

  52. Dear Inge,
    thank you very much for your article and for addressing a topic like this with great concern for the protagonists of such a delicate issue and for giving us the opportunity to go directly to the font.

    Solomon once wrote: "For love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot sweep it away. If one were to give all the wealth of one's house for love, it would be utterly scorned."

    Personally I don't see big difference between hetero love and homosexual love: both love are powerful, genuine, self sacrificing, overwhelming, compassionate, caring, ... The same love I feel for my wife, a gay person feels for his partner; the good I receive from my hetero relationship, very similarly a gay receives from his. In one word, the love a gay person feels for his lover is very like the one spoken here by Solomon. That's why, I think, we should be careful and ask ourselves some few questions before we sentence someone to perdition if he/she accepts his/her gay condition and decide to live in accordance with it.

    As far as I know, statistics say that it is around 8-10% the number of those who thanks to prayers, psychologists, friends, or case, change their gay sexual orientation to a hetero one. Excluding those who have homosexual intercourse for vice and those gay who have a promiscuous sexual conduct, it remains a big number of people that in spite of prayers, psychologists, friends... won't change their condition anyhow and most probably gay will die.

    It is clear to me the Bible condemns homosexuality because it was considered a vice or an abominable pagan spiritual practice the Jews should avoid absolutely. But do the Bible authors consider homosexuality in its complexity, as we came to know today (or it came to happen recently), making distinction between the vice and a true feeling of love?

    I know that homosexuality does not respond to the ideal of Creation. We live in a world completely upset by the effects of sin from the core of our being. But also lions, in their beauty, don't correspond to the ideal of creation, yet not for this we expect them to become vegetarian! In the same way, very often, human "necessities" exceed God's prohibitions or intentions.

    In many occasions God agreed to give what in origin he didn't contemplate: after the flood God gave man meat to eat, in the desert God gave meat to His people just because they got tired of manna; He agreed to give them a king even though He was not of that opinion, He let them have slaves, go to war...

    Most of our patriarchs were used to the detestable practice of concubinage and polygamy: even these cultural practices do not respond the ideal of creation but God allowed them, making the patriarchs, anyway, fathers and builders of our faith. To David, Nathan, the prophet, said that God would have given him even more wives than those He already gave him, if he pleased!!

    Jesus seems to confirm this delicate way of thinking speaking of David when he was hungry of bread. The high priest Ahimelech simply gave him of the bread that was determined to priests alone: he didn't suggest David to kneel and pray (with him) God to make the miracle; he didn't pretend David to exercise his faith till a starving death. God's Church has never been the place for ascetics and heroes, but of jars of clay that with their defects in sincerity proclaim the love and wisdom of God.

    There are human cultural barriers to which God Himself submit. In the ancient Sanctuary there was no place for eunuchs and women (and divorced people I imagine). Today, it is not like this fortunately. Paul himself, who was the greatest theologian of the N.T., commanded women to be silent and submitted to men; for him fathers could decide to give their daughters in marriage or not... I am sure the apostle Paul had nothing against women but if we read 1 Tim 2:11-15 and we judge it with our today's knowledge of gender equality I don't know which adjective to use to judge what he wrote there! This should not get us surprised, that is normal: Paul was a man of his time! What must surprise us, instead is Gal 3:28! Therefore, it does not marvel me if he believed that homosexuals were an abomination: simply it was the common way of thinking.

    The great sympathy shown by your article (and many others who posted) could be supported, in my opinion, by a even stronger theological sympathy. If we don't, we risk to grow up children of God, yes, loved by us but repressed and filled of destructive and unnecessary feelings of guilt.

    • G'day Daniele,

      I read what you posted and my heart cries out for it. But the heart can be a deceitful thing and I dare not consider it.

      I find myself like Paul caught between two natures, Romans 7:14-25. The first real relationship I had was with another male. We were sexually active at the time. The guilt I experienced forced me to break off the relationship. The other person was so heart broken because of it. I shudder to think I hurt him. He couldn't understand how I felt. I loved him with all my heart but the guilt was too much for me. It was a few years after this that Jesus called me to his side.

      When I think back on those times, I question myself whether I could have brought glory to God in the circumstance of that first relationship. Solomon was right when he speaks of love and jealousy.

      In a heterosexual relationship, the protocols of society protect the relationship to a degree. If you are a man married to a woman you would ask questions if your woman was constantly hanging around other men. If you are a woman married to a man you would ask questions if your man was constantly hanging around other women. In a same sex relationship the social protocols have been removed. It requires a trust far greater than you would find in a heterosexual relationship. It is my opinion that this is the reason for a higher incidence of domestic abuse in gay relationships when compared to heterosexual relationships. I could be totally wrong, but this is what I have reasoned out.

      Is it possible for a same sex relationship to survive a life time?

      Yes it is possible but the odds are against it. God is a compassionate God and at the intellectual level I recognise His wisdom in what He has created. My heart screams out in conflict with this though and sometimes the loneliness is unbearable. All I can do is trust in my God and let Him guide me along in my journey.

  53. Inge,
    I have been enjoying reading the various comments especially yours, however on your comment dated Feb 22nd you stated "I think the important thing for gay people is to recognize that these stimuli are not sinful in and of themselves". This statement challenged me. Are you saying that the thought to engage in homosexual activity is not in and of itself wrong? From my limited understanding of the Bible we will be judged by God for our thoughts, words and deeds. If thoughts to steal and fornicate are not spiritually and morally wholesome for the kleptocrats and womanizers, how do you explain the statement.
    I look forward to your usually insightful and sincere posts.

    • Michael, I thank you for asking so that I can clarify what I mean. I am definitely not saying "that the thought to engage in homosexual activity is not in and of itself wrong." It is wrong.

      What I am saying is that the unbidden visual stimuli to which males are prone is not sin. Not being a male, I can only trust that what I read, have been told and have observed as a married woman is true: Males are primarily sexually stimulated by sight, and this stimulus comes without conscious thought. (I've even read that some males can get an erection by looking at a beautiful car!) The stimulus from seeing a beautiful woman, pleasurable as it may be, is not sin. It becomes sin only when the mind is engaged and follows through with lust - imagining some kind of sexual contact. (Matt 5:28) I believe that the secret for overcoming the impulse to lust is to view the beautiful woman as a child of God whom the Savior yearns to draw to Himself.

      For gay males, the same thing is true when they see attractive men. The stimulus is unbidden, coming without conscious input. That is not sin! Far too many gay men agonize over their "sin," feeling condemned for what they did not choose. They are not sinning as long as they submit their sexuality to Christ and choose to view the other man as a child of God whom the Savior yearns to draw to Himself. However, since the Bible does not sanction any male-to-male sexual activity, "the thought to engage in homosexual activity" is sin.

      Can you see the difference?

      Martin Luther is credited with the saying that "You cannot keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building nests in your hair," meaning that you cannot keep impulses/passing thoughts from entering your mind, but you can choose not to entertain them.

      I realize I have mentioned only men. That's because female sexuality works a bit differently. But the same principle holds true. Unbidden impulses are not sin. Only as we imagine a wrong act, i.e. lust, do we sin.

      I believe it is also important to note that intimate same-sex friendships are not sin. In fact, paradoxically as it may seem, I understand that they can be an antidote to same-sex lust. Ideally the friendship is with a heterosexual person. But there's something about the familiarity and ordinariness of a long-standing friendship that reduces lust, even though that doesn't mean that temptation goes away. David and Jonathan had an intimate friendship, but the gay theology that makes them "gay" is clearly wrong. In their culture it would have meant death to act as they did if they had been suspected of being homosexual. And if David were gay, he would not have sinned with Bathsheba!

      It is unfortunate that western society does not value male-to-male friendships. In the book Purity & Passion, Rich Ghent and Jim Childerston argue persuasively that intimate male friendships enhance sexual relations in marriage. Therapists treating gay males also share that male-to-male friendships reduce the tendency towards promiscuous homosexual encounters.

      The bottom line is that Christ understands the sexual struggles of single persons. He was single Himself during the most hormone-driven years of a man's life. And I believe He has a special regard for those struggling with a homosexual orientation because, while on this earth, He demonstrated a special interest in the outcasts of Jewish society.

  54. It is natural that we are disgusted with homosexuality and the people that flaunt it. Many good Christian people and even people who don't have a religious bone in their body are revolted by such things.

    I as a celibate gay christian man have been at the receiving end of such hatred as long as I can remember. God's solution to this is to look at the people who carry such rancor in their hearts toward me and my kind is to FORGIVE FORGIVE FORGIVE -for they know not what they do!!! There is peace to choose to look at any and everyone with the same eyes that JESUS looks at the Ones HE died for.

    We are to look at sin with hatred. but not the sinner. Problem is that when it comes to gays (esp. those who flaunt and help move society to accept it as normal) we see them as one in the same as their disgusting acts/thoughts. Paul called himself the worst of sinners not because he did worse things than others but because he knows how important it is to esteem others higher than himself. To see his own beam in his eye to live and spread the GOSPEL.

    The first time I set foot in a SDA church at age 12 I learned God hated homosexuals and the quote of the day bandied around in the 1970's was 'gays should be lined up and shot!' and 'they should be put on an island where they will die off.'

    The devil tried his best to do me in with hatred from Christians, and the devil does his best to turn away so many other gays from a GOD Who is not repulsed by them, but loves them with an everlasting Love -like HE loves You All. The reason why Christians don't think JESUS hung around homosexuals in a Centurion/ Administration Occupied (lived, worked, played) Gay-Eros-influenced Roman culture planted in Israel is beyond me. If you know many gays as deeply as I do, you can testify that gays would be hanging around JESUS and nowhere in Jesus words you hear to a person 'BUZZ OFF!'

    Apparently there is an 'us' and the 'them' theology ruling hearts. Don't you realize that we ALL are the same. gays and straights . . Only God can enlarge the hearts to look upon gays better than selves.

    GOD bless you all. 🙂

    • Steve,
      Your comments are reasonable and you come across as very conscientious. Given your views why is it important or necessary to label yourself "gay?" Considering the association of the label with a movement which opposes some of what you believe, is it not better to view yourself as a Christian who acknowledges certain undesirable tendencies, like all of us do in various ways, and most of us without labeling ourselves?

      As well does it not reinforce in the mind that the inclination is 'normal,' and that one might be very comfortable with it? Might it also communicate that God is not able to reverse the propensity or in some way inhibit belief that one may fully overcome?

      We have all sorts of inherited and cultivated tendencies, but we look forward and claim something better, even before it becomes a reality, because we believe the report of the Lord, and not those who say we are stuck or doomed (Psalm 23:3; Luke 1:37).

      • Hugh,
        You asked a very good question of why would a gay person who is now a christian would still call himself gay.

        Well I will share a few reasons that you may not agree with or understand and that is ok. What I am expressing are very personal and tender so consider this an honour 🙂 It has to do with COMMUNITY

        1. We are liars when we say we have no sin. 1 John 1:10 It's very important in fellowship to tell the truth of ourselves with each other. It is up to ourselves what to share and what not to share with others. It cannot and should not be dictated by another. In that sharing we constantly focus on JESUS loving where we are now and loving us all to completion

        2. To find safety in fellowship. A Body of Christ is called to be a safe place for trust to build and connection to be formed and to find encouragement (Heb 10:25) and accountability. Fellowship brings growth and healing and in this process even a closer walk with each other and GOD. Are you safe to share a struggle with without condemning or showing self-righteousness?

        3. Why do I tell others I'm gay? It is not a sin to be gay. The sin is lust in the mind and acting on it, just like with heterosexuals.
        It is a great way to share my Testimony. After all it relates directly to How Jesus Saved Me! A Sinner! And between you and me and all who see this, telling people in some circles that we are Christians evokes 2000 years of violence, fraud, scandals, abuse, misogyny and hatemongering. And even today some churches do that. Some are very aware of all that baggage and avoid us Christians at all costs

        4. To go back to the God's Word in 1 John 1:8-10: It does great damage to struggling gays to assert oneself as being completely healed of my homosexuality by calling myself "straight" or "ex-gay."
        If it is true, by all means sound the trumpet, let the pigeons loose! But in most cases, even ex-gays who marry an opposite sex partner and sire children, still struggle with attraction to the same sex. And that attraction may never go away until the other side of eternity.
        To say that same-sex attraction just goes away gives a a false impression. It is an excruciatingly soul destroying life to be gay and seeking the elusive 'sainthood' of heterosexuality and not finding it but comparing your walk with ex-gays who announce they are TADA! I'M STRAIGHT while it is not true.
        Speaking particularly of ex-gay ministries: Many have killed themselves because of no hope and others have cut or tried to cut off their genitalia in desperation. My gay brothers and sister deserve the TRUTH of SANCTIFICATION. It's not overnight or necessarily complete at sudden death.

        4. There is healing when you share the inner parts of yourself, when you look into another's eyes and see JESUS (non-condemnation) IN THE FLESH. There is freedom in that and JESUS IS GLORIFIED!

        There are other reasons outside of these 4 entirely on another level, but I chose to share these because it strikes at the heart of how GOD deals with us in relationship and calls us to do and be the same towards others. I am sure I gave you enough to chew on.

        On a even more personal note of my long hard walk -- it's nice to stop the busybodies from wondering why I am not married yet or the dreaded awkward ringing of the bell, "I've got a nice girl I want you to meet!"

        I will get even more deep with you, my friend and brother in Christ. I can't tell you how many times I got to know good people in the past and formed bonds and rejoiced in the LORD together to only be suddenly avoided because they got wind of the fact that I AM GAY (and therefore demon possessed, as some believe, and they cant hang around a walking, talking demon-controlled homo expelling green split pea soup vomit). I find it best to be upfront early on to avoid such devastating disappointment of being rejected by someone I though to be a soul brother. If I'm upfront and thought to be a castaway by them, it is is better for both parties emotionally.

        And on a preachy side note...
        Gossiping/backbiting would stop or greatly be lessened if we told the talebearer how disgusted and repulsed we are by their backbiting and character-assassinating sins (just like many freely do with homosexuals). Ellen White calls it cannibalism, which sounds pretty evil to me. Can we deny fellowship to those people who do so wickedly and have some credibility in the gay community??? ...

        OK off my soapbox 🙂 God bless you all and be with you as you reflect and pray where your sin is in this. IF JESUS be lifted up, He will draw all gay men and women.

        • There is a difference between being a "sinner by birth" and "sinner by choice". We cannot do anything about the first, because of our first parents- Adam and Eve choice. But the second, we have to answer to God at the Judgment.

      • Thank you for that wonderful testimony Steve. @Hugh you said

        (As well does it not reinforce in the mind that the inclination is 'normal,' and that one might be very comfortable with it? Might it also communicate that God is not able to reverse the propensity or in some way inhibit belief that one may fully overcome?)

        Hugh being gay is not a propensity, so to speak, like addiction. It is something different entirely. It's not a habit people pick up. It's not a choice either. No one would choose that. A life of judgment, bullying, being ostracized from family, friends, church and community.

        I have known of many who tried to pray the gay away and it didn't happen, only God knows why. We live in a fallen world and do not have all the answers on why people are gay, they just are. Born that way if you will. Steve says he is a gay Christian, if he were to say otherwise it would be a lie. Are people suppose to lie to make others feel comfortable?

        Heterosexuals have no idea what is like to be gay and we fear what we do not understand. God understands and that is enough, we don't have to understand, but what we can do is love. That is what Jesus wants us to do -- love with a greater capacity beyond ourselves. Forget your preconceived notions and labels and just love, otherwise you can get caught up in that, and love goes by the waste side.

        We are suppose to bring people to the lord not repel them, and the only way to do that is show them how loved they are by God and Christians. Do your thoughts and ideas on this look like Jesus? Jesus just loved us, all of us. He has no conditions on his love for us, but man does.

        With all the sins and abominations, why is this the worst for so many??? If you think being gay is a sin that is, I however do not. Being born a certain way is not a sin, the acts anyone of us can do is. Let's stop judging others and let them have their own personal relationship and journey with God, and let's love and support them in it. Now that looks like Jesus. God Bless!

        • Felicia, to me it seems that you might have things a bit confused when you say, “Hugh being gay is not a propensity, so to speak, like addiction.” A propensity is a bent to something, a kind of gravitational force that is pulling on us in a particular direction and in our use of the term it is not because of a choice. Both homosexuality and many addictions often come from a propensity that we are born with just like any sin is but in some cases it is a clear choice rather than a propensity. For those cases there is no excuse.

          I believe in spite of propensities we still have a choice and in a lot of cases that is something we must battle with for the rest of our lives. That is why being a part of an environment of sin is so miserable. It is like trying to run up a sand dune while someone is constantly pushing you down.

          • I think you're right, Tyler, that being gay is a "propensity," that is not chosen, but just is, and I believe that's what Felicia meant, judging by the rest of her comment.

            The choice we have is regarding how we deal with our propensities, not about the innate propensities themselves. We can choose to submit our propensities to God and be obedient, or we can choose to yield to our sinful propensities.

            Seeing that sexuality is a very powerful part of human individuality, I have seen a lot of gay people expressing discouragement at the thought of never being able to express their sexuality in a relationship.

        • Felicia, you wrote; "Heterosexuals have no idea what is like to be gay..." I would say that is not completely true. It's simply having a natural attraction to something God disproves of. That would be true for every person born on this earth since Adam and Eve sinned, according to several passages of scripture. Heterosexuals might not have the attraction to the same gender, but the attraction is just as real, and can often be out of place with God's plan. Homosexuality is not the only way to transgress God's will sexually.

          Just wanted to point that out. The whole purpose of this post is that sin exists in every way possible and none are exempt, but all are promised "the grace of God that brings salvation". Jesus does not draw a line for whom He is willing to save from sin.

        • Felicia, I get what you're saying regarding Heteros don't know what it's like to be gay.

          Growing up gay in a straight world and finding out you're not like them as a youngster is scary and shocking. And pretending you're like them takes away all your energy - always looking over your own shoulder and checking off lists so you won't be discovered for who you are!!!

          Love your thoughts.
          God bless you.

  55. It's quite interesting reading all the comments concerning the so called "Gay" issues. I remember reading, that Jesus was tempted in all points. Hey guys, He never sinned. If you call your self being different, that's ok, (sin not) Let it go and let God.
    In this world we are confronted with all kinds of situations, you don't have to give in. Give it all to the one who can handle it. That is, to a loving Saviour, who knows how we are but can save all of us.

    • Myrtharyn, could you please explain why you refer to the "so called 'Gay' issues'?

      Do you not believe there there are people who are attracted to the same sex just as you are (presumably) attracted to the opposite sex?

      What do you see as the purpose of God in establishing a church community? Does the community have any responsibility to its members in terms of support and encouragement? Or should we just tell each other to just "let it go and let God."

      It would be really helpful if you could share with our gay brothers and sisters how you "let it go and let God" in your own life. They can be encouraged that it is possible by seeing what God has done in the lives of others. What did you "let go and let God"? Are you experiencing complete victory over sin?

  56. Thanks Inge for posting this; it needs to be discussed.

    We have so much to learn about the character of God. How great his love is for us. We can't fathom that kind of love here in this world, not until we get to heaven. The Creator of the universe giving his only son to die so we can live. Not only die but to be tortured and murdered by the very children He created. It's bigger than we know.

    It took time for me to get the right picture of God. He is a God of love and compassion not a God of fire and brimstone, a lie Satan perpetuates. God is not checking off a list of wrongs but checking off a list of love. When people come to realize that kind of love, and feel worthy of it, that is when they will start seeing the worth in everyone, and how worthy and deserving everyone is in receiving that love. It makes you view things in a different light. Now I look at everyone, even people I don't like or understand and say "that is a child of God and He loves them wholeheartedly without question. He died for that person." It changed my life.

    When you look at someone and know that Jesus died for that person, He died for them, no if, and's, or but's. Then who am I to judge, say, or think anything negative. It minimizes what Jesus did when we do that; we have no right. In other words, when we do that, we are basically saying what Christ did for all us is no big deal. That can't feel very good to Christ-- peoples attitudes about others.

    Remember what Jesus's greatest commandment was? (Matt 22:37-38) It was love, love for him and our neighbor, period. It something that needs to be worked on daily, but so worth it. God Bless you, Inge, you are doing wonderful things here 🙂

  57. [This comment is based on Matt. 9:9-17; Mark 2:14-22; Luke 5:27-39 as interpreted by Ellen White in Desire of Ages, Chapter 28]
    I heard when it comes to personalizing the Scriptures, we are to insert ourselves in the story when GOD HIMSELF walked the Earth.

    So this is what I have done with this chapter from the Desire of Ages, pp.272-274, in paraphrasing and condensing it for myself:

    Of the people in Palestine, none were more hated than the gays. Their flaunting and open sin and gay parades were a continual irritation to the Jews ... And the gays were promoting their lifestyle as normal and even demanded to be treated like the straights and to be able to get married to each other. A gay who was proud of his state was looked upon as betraying God's natural state of creation. He was despised as an apostate and was classed with the vilest of society.

    To this class belonged Steve Wicher, who, after the four disciples at Gennesaret, was the next to be called to Christ's service. The Pharisees had judged Steve according to his orientation, but Jesus saw in this man a heart open for the reception of truth. Steve had listened to the Saviour's teaching. As the convicting Spirit of God revealed his sinfulness, he longed to seek help from Christ; but he was accustomed to the exclusiveness of the rabbis, and had no thought that this Great Teacher would notice him.

    Marching at the Gay and Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Pride Parade, the gay dude saw Jesus approaching. Great was his astonishment to hear the words addressed to himself, "Follow Me."

    Steve "left all, rose up, and followed Him." There was no hesitation, no questioning, no thought of the self-indulgent gay lifestyle to be exchanged for self-denying celibacy and purity of heart. It was enough for him that he was to be with Jesus, that he might listen to His words, and unite with Him in His work.

    Principle is always exacting. No man can succeed in the service of God unless his whole heart is in the work and he counts all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. No man who makes any reserve can be the disciple of Christ, much less can he be His colaborer. When men appreciate the great salvation, the self-sacrifice seen in Christ's life will be seen in theirs. Wherever He leads the way, they will rejoice to follow HIM.

    The calling of Steve to be one of Christ's disciples excited great indignation. For a religious teacher to choose a an openly gay dude as one of his immediate attendants was an offense against the religious, social, and national customs. By appealing to the prejudices of the people the Pharisees hoped to turn the current of popular feeling against Jesus.

    Among the gay community a widespread interest was created. Their hearts were drawn toward the divine Teacher. In the joy of his new discipleship, Steve longed to bring his former associates to Jesus. Accordingly he made a feast at his own house, and called together his relatives, gays and flamboyant drag queen friends. Not only were gays included, but many others who were of doubtful reputation, and were forbidden by Law by their more scrupulous neighbors.

    The entertainment was given in honor of Jesus, and He did not hesitate to accept the courtesy. He well knew that this would give offense to the Pharisaic party, and would also compromise Him in the eyes of the people. But no question of policy could influence His movements. With Him external distinctions weighed nothing. That which appealed to His heart was a soul thirsting for the water of life.

    Jesus sat as an honored guest at the table of the gays, by His sympathy and social kindliness showing that He recognized the dignity of gays and lesbians; and they longed to become worthy of His confidence. Upon their thirsty hearts His words fell with blessed, life-giving power. New impulses were awakened, and the possibility of a new life opened to these outcasts of society.

    At such gatherings as this, not a few were impressed by the Saviour's teaching who did not acknowledge Him until after His ascension. When the Holy Spirit was poured out, and three thousand were converted in a day, there were among them many who first heard the truth at the glittery table of the homosexuals, and some of these became messengers of the gospel. To Steve himself the example of Jesus at the feast was a constant lesson. The despised flaming homosexual became one of the most devoted evangelists, in his own ministry following closely in his Master's steps.

  58. Inge, I would like to thank you. Good bless you in your ministry.

    To the others with their genuine questions and to the supportive commenters, it has been a real blessing. It makes the struggle worth it.

    My goal in life is to live a life that my Jesus approves of. I make many mistakes along the way. I think it was Leo Tolstoy who said, “If I know the way home and am walking along it drunkenly, is it any less the right way because I am staggering from side to side! ”. So it is with the Christian walk on the journey to Heaven.

    When I hear some of the remarks from other Christians, I find it very discouraging. Sometimes I wonder whether I should just give up the struggle and just follow my inclinations. So I sway from side to side along the path. It is you people who give encouraging words and truly show the love of Christ that makes the walk along the road of life a beautiful thing. It gives me encouragement. It enables me to walk the next few steps towards my goal.

    Over the years I have learned to be cynical. But I find walking with God and hearing from people who care, allow me to see past my own cynicism.

    I might be gay, but by the grace of God I am on a journey to Heaven. I am looking forward to meeting you all there.

    Thank you.

    • I love the way Jesus did his ministry. To all He says "go and sins no more". While Jesus loves the SINNER, he hates SIN. No matter the sin, God said He hates sin, sin must be given up. God has the power to change us(sinners) and make us become like Him(saints). We read sin shall not rise again in that new heaven and new earth. Read Romans 1:21-32, and Rev 22:14-15.

    • David, I really like this paragraph in your reply. If only all of us would have as the primary goal of our lives that Jesus could approve of our lives, the Lord would soon come to take us home.

      I suspect that none of us walk a straight forward path on the way home. We all stagger drunkenly, so to speak:

      My goal in life is to live a life that my Jesus approves of. I make many mistakes along the way. I think it was Leo Tolstoy who said, “If I know the way home and am walking along it drunkenly, is it any less the right way because I am staggering from side to side! ”. So it is with the Christian walk on the journey to Heaven.

      I gain courage from this assurance:

      The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by th tendency of the habitual words and acts." (Steps to Christ, pp. 57-58)
      It tells me that it's the overall direction of our lives - whether or not we are moving closer to Christ and home - that counts. Often we may stagger, but let us stagger forwards. 🙂

      This, too, has helped me:

      There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” 1 John 2:1 (Steps to Christ, p. 64)

  59. Please note: If you are going to respond to the first bit of what I say, make sure that you show evidence that you have read the last bit. This comment is a bit longer than what I usually write so you will need to scroll down a bit.

    I think that it is fair to say that our attitude to people who have gender orientation problems is very much determined by our view of the causality of the problem.

    • If you think that God has created each of us perfectly male or female and that it is a choice as to whether you behave as a male or female, then you will see and form of same gender attraction as sinful.
    • If you think that a person's sexuality is determined by causes over which a person has no control, then you will probably be more understanding of the issues that people have with their sexuality.

    Now a bit of personal history:

    I grew up on a farm where we kept sheep and cows. One of the jobs that I used to help out with as a kid was the castration of male lambs (Just accept that is part of farming practice - this is not a discussion on animal rights). Occasionally we would find a lamb that had both male and female eternal genitalia. Of course Dad and I discussed the situation - the farm was a great biology lesson book - and I learned from quite early on that things could go wrong with gender.

    I went to a boys' high school during my puberty years and observed and took part in typical adolescent interaction. There was the usual horseplay (those of you who remember your teenage years will know what I mean), and it quickly became clear to me that I was heterosexual but that some of the other boys in the school were not. Activities that disgusted me and that I wanted no part in held a particular attraction for a small number of others.

    I became a teacher and became very much aware of the human cost of gender orientation issues in the church and have gone to some length to be aware of the problem and compassionate towards those who struggle with their sexuality.


    I have not followed the scholastic papers on this research - that is both costly and time consuming - but I have taken the time to read reputable news articles and listen to experts who have to deal with sex orientation issues. So I will pass on what I have heard.

    Our perception of our sexuality is built on a number of factors:

    Genetics: Obviously there are genes that carry information about our sexual organs and how they are placed and function and so on. Genes also influence the brain, which controls most of our sexuality. Some of the genetic information is obvious and well understood but some of it is diffuse and it will be some time before we reach a full understanding of the coding.
    Hormonal development: As a person develops both in the womb and during childhood and adolescence, changes in body development occur as the result of hormone releases. These released should happen at particular times in the development of the person, but sometimes they may go off either at the wrong time, or out of sequence. This messes with the development process. We know about the obvious ones like giantism and so on, but the ones that affect or sexual development are still not well understood. We do know that trauma and other environmental factors may change the trigger times for hormonal development.
    Environmental and cultural influences: This is often very vague. There are a couple of documented situations - some children in some cultures do not show external genitalia until puberty. It is almost as if the gonad migration that should occur before birth has been delayed. Some of the expectations of puberty behaviour are based on culture.

    The significant thing that I think that has happened in research is that we are now aware that the idea that our sexuality is determined by a single defining factor is wrong. That is one reason that that early research was flawed. There was nothing wrong with the research at the time, it is just that subsequent research has shown the limitations of early research. That is the nature of discovery research.

    We have ample evidence that the human body can be born defective, or develop defectively in areas other than gender. We accept that can happen, and is not a choice of the person concerned. We should not make an exception for gender attraction issues.

    Human Compassion
    The main issue that is at stake in this discussion is who we should feel compassionate for and how we should express that compassion.

    I do not feel comfortable standing on my high moral ground just because I am a heterosexual monogamous male and condemning those whose perception of their sexuality is different from mine. Jesus did not stand in heaven and say, "If you are good enough and behave yourselves, you will eventually get to be where I am standing." He got down among the sinners (He hung out with them - if you want to use that terminology) and he suffered with them. And just maybe that is what he expects us to do.

    A senior Adventist administrator once said to me, regarding discussions such as this, that only those people who have close friends or family members who are gay should be allowed to comment. I know what he meant. At that particular time we had both had colleagues who were dismissed from Adventist employ for "inappropriate lifestyle choices."

    Like some of the others who have taken part in this discussion I have been round long enough to have seen friends, colleagues, and family members struggle with same-sex attraction. In many cases these folk were Seventh-day Adventists. I have seen the whole spectrum of responses - celibacy, trans-gender changes, heterosexual marriage, and, unfortunately, suicide. These folk are not the nameless homosexuals that you read about or see on TV. They are people I know by name and with whom I interact.

    Condemnation is not going to work; I have only got compassion left.

    • I appreciate and relate to Maurice's sharing from 1st hand experience. My mother loves all over my sister and niece, despises the sin but like God tells her, Love God and love our fellow man. So she just loves all over them as she know Jesus would. So should everyone else, and be like Jesus, allowing Him to live His life through them, and they will be NOT judgmental about something that in the end, is between God and that beloved person. Gay or straight, we all come on bended knee before God to give account of ourselves. Remove that plank out of your eye before trying to remove the speck of dust from your neighbour's eye!

  60. As complicated as this subject is for spectators it's is a lot more complex for individuals it involves. myself included. sure it's contentious too, but as a group there is always some kind of it.

    As a gay man with a strict Adventist upbringing, it's torturous to learn that "saved by grace" doesn't apply to me.

    While the circles i was brought up in didn't proclaim that, it has been by and large what you hear in most denominational churches.

    Yes there are the verses we are reminded of go and sin no more, being saved from our sin, then the "gay verses" gen 19, lev 18, romans 1, 1 Cor 6, etc.

    the verses are pulled out and presented in a way that if it was say wearing clothes of more than one fibre, or cutting hair, or men shaving their face, it would be used to exclude them from being christians.

    Then another similar subject, divorce and remarriage. Growing up, the grownups would always denounce remarriage; fast forward to when i am a responsible age, with one or two exceptions they are divorced and mostly remarried.

    On a theological level, it seems like the church of the apostles where various figures required the converts to be jewish, be required to keep the laws of moses, and be circumcised in order to get a look in at being christians.

    on circumcision, Paul tells us that it doesn't matter that whats more important is what it represents circumcision of the heart, and another place he (Gal 3 28) in Christ Neither Jew nor Greek, slaves nor free, males or female. i think as a denomination we have a long way to go on treating perspective members similarly, i recently was in a sabbath school where we were talking about the church on jewellery dress and worship music.
    the minister stated that if the church enforced a dress code there would be hardly any baptisms, telling.

    in Christian love

    • Elias, I'm so sorry that you've gotten the impression "that 'saved by grace' doesn't apply to me." I hope that's really only what you see some portraying and that you don't see that as reality. We all have struggles. Thank God that His grace is strong enough to give us victory in every area of life. And His grace is for you, too.

      • Yes John,

        It's not a church wide exception. if this analogy makes sense here goes. growing up in conservative crowds, the conferences were seen to be out of control liberals. Other times and people have decried them for being out of touch, out dated conservatives.

        In a group, say you emphasise saved by grace alone, person 2 denounces you for ignoring sanctification or calling out person 3 on sin, Person 2 emphasises striving to be like Jesus. now personally it's inappropriate for a person seeking to be like Jesus to censuring, minimising person 3.

        As christians from left and right, sanctification isn't an over night experience. the problem of "calling out sin" is him(or her) without sin throw the first stone. (John 8 7)
        and part 2 is (Romans 2;1) there is no excuse for judgement, you get self condemnation since you do the same things.

        God is our solution in all this, so focusing on yours or my failings is a distraction. I need to make Him the central part of my life and personal religion. I think how long it takes to understand various things, months years etc. on a personal note, i've read various books on the Bible, homosexuality and church. the "verses" (GENESIS 19 (cf. 18:20)
        LEVITICUS 18:22 (20:13)DEUTERONOMY 23:17-18,ROMANS 1:26-27
        I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & TIMOTHY 1:10 feature in all of them, the law of moses, the dietary laws, the purity laws etc. as non Adventist perspectives, one common verdict was the levitical laws are irrelevant to christians. this was a non answer since we denounce unclean food and keep the sabbath. As a denomination, we don't enforce the remaining part of law of moses, or laws of the Jews.
        grooming laws were Israel specific, in the last comment circumcision as a requirement, we don't regulate either.

        Trust God

  61. I think it is ironic that this discussion of sexuality has arisen within the study theme of "Discipleship". Since Inge posed the initial question of "Would Jesus Hang Out With Gay People Too?", we may need to ask ourselves, "what is my (individual) responsibility to people in need of discipleship?". Since it is Jesus who invites us to "follow Me and I will make you fishers of men" (Mt 4:19), then we need to be educated by His High Priestly example. In Mt 8:1-4, a leper approaches Jesus and requests healing. Is Jesus "grossed out" by this man's approach? Not only is He not "grossed out", He (gasp) touches him! He touches him while declaring His desire for the man's cleansing. In agreement with the Mosaic law he directs him to go and show himself to the priest. In Acts 10, God clearly does a work in Cornelius (Acts 10:2,15,28) and sends him (figuratively) to the "priest", Peter. It was the now previously prejudiced Peter, under inspiration who later wrote 1 Pt 2:9. The priests in the wilderness Tabernacle not only killed animals and sprinkled blood on behalf of the guilty, Leviticus 13-15 instructed priests in their other duty as community doctor/health official. These priests, who interestingly were priests by birth, were required to have repeated contact with lepers (and some potential ones). Not only did these lepers come to the priests (Lev 13:2) but the priests also had to go to the "hang out" of the isolated (Lev 14:3). If we believe that 1 Pt 2:9 applies to us as God's professed people, then our first responsibility is to ensure we're of correct "birth" to practice. Then we'd better be educated in preparation for practice. Then in accordance with our education, are we to practice. May the High Priest find us only competent practitioners.

  62. He will meet them, too, but tell them kindly, explainers God's way of sexuality, not worldly.
    He will tell you to follow His word, not your own way. Jesus know the book of exodus and Deuteronomy about homosexual. Jesus know the result of homosexual by God. You have a right of choice, but he did not force it, but pray for you to follow God's way of sexuality.

    • Jason, as I study the Bible, I see that Christ mingled with men (hung out with them), ministered to their needs (healed them, fed them, answered their questions), and only then did he bid them follow Him.

      I don't see Jesus spending much time telling sinners what not to do - other than in his rebukes of the religious leaders. But He did not condemn the outcasts of society. They already felt condemned. They needed to experience His love, and He mingled with them so He could minister to their needs. When they sensed His holiness and purity, they felt their sinfulness by contrast. He gave them courage by expressing the confidence that they could "go and sin no more" (as He did with Mary) and He expressed the confidence that they could be His true followers (as He did with Matthew).

      If we associate with people only to tell them that they are wrong, we are not following the example of Christ. We are missing the steps of mingling with them to do them good. We are missing the step of demonstrating that we are their friends.

      Preaching to people without making friends with them first is never going to work. Only the methods of Jesus will bring any sinner to repentance. If we think people need to allow Jesus to live His life of purity in us and to love others through us.

  63. I have read the article, and the comments and I have watched the video. You know after reading the comments I am left wondering if we have forgotten that God is also a God of justice. Mercy and justice work together, but sometimes we tend to think that mercy is the here all and end all.

    One thing that has been reinforced from the discussion and presentations is all sin is sin. There is magnitude of sins and degrees of punishment, but we were not given the duty of gauging someone else’s sins. The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, and it also says that lying lips are an abomination. Both obviously are terrible sins, as are all other sins.

    One comment says that we have propensities, another inherited tendencies. This is true one person may be struggling with lying, another with stealing, another with evil surmising, hypocrisy, pornography, but what we must always remember is this, God never blesses us in sin and He will never save us in sin. We have an overcoming work to do and it must be done for us to be saved. Remember, when Jesus presents the redeemed to His Father He says these are they who have overcome. Sadly we cuddle some sins even within our own breasts, as we condemn others, this is wrong but it does not change the fact that homosexuality is also wrong.

    We often say much more than we realize with the words we leave unspoken or the idea that is transmitted by what is said. To say that one cannot change is to say that God has limited power. To say one was born homosexual is to say that God is cruel for making people like that then expect them to live differently. To say that time have change and so people are now naturally homosexual is to say that God has no control over how things develop.

    Yes Jesus was tempted as we are and He did not sin! This is important. He came to be our example and if His example does not apply today then we hope in vain.

    If I have a problem with lying, say I lie when I feel threatened and want to protect myself, does this change that it is a sin. Would I have had to spend all my life overcoming it? Yes likely I would. Must I overcome it? Yes I must because if I do not, truth is I will not have a place in God’s kingdom. The simple truth is we must love God more than all things. From the beginning the battle was really about obedience. Do we obey God or do we try to make others and God accept us in sin? The same applies to all sins, so yes we love the sinner but we hate the sin and that means always letting it be known that God is love and mercy and justice too. We must love more than else or we will never choose to obey Him.

    • Thank you for your comment, Keisha.

      You wrote, among other things ...

      To say that one cannot change is to say that God has limited power. To say one was born homosexual is to say that God is cruel for making people like that then expect them to live differently.

      Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "change." God is in the business of changing us into His image, so, if we submit to Him as our Lord, we will be continually changing - whether we are homosexually or heterosexually oriented.

      But you may be referring to changing a sexual orientation. And that is a different matter, because there is some pretty solid evidence that a homosexual orientation is very much part of a person's nature - the same sinful human nature we all possess.

      You might as well say "To say one was born a sinner is to say that God is cruel for making people like that then expect them to live differently." The fact, however, is Adam and Eve were created perfect, but everyone since then has been born with the effects of sin. I don't know about you, Keisha, but I wasn't born perfect. Some imperfections are visible, others are invisible. Some are in my mind, some in my body.

      You may be the only exception on this planet, but as far as I know, none of us are born perfect. And a homosexual orientation is just one of the regrettable results of sin.

      But God made provision for the terrible emergency of sin. He came to be one of us and die in our place. As a result He can give us the victory over both our acquired and inherited impulses to sin. But that doesn't take give take our sinful nature away. Likewise, I know many gays who are faithful to their wives or who are living single lives of purity by the grace of God. But God doesn't take their homosexual orientation away.

      It's not easy to be a gay Adventist when most of the church, and the pastors as well, are ignorant on the subject of homosexuality and make no distinction between a homosexual orientation and engaging in same-sex sex.

      The facts are: Some heterosexuals engage in gay sex, but that doesn't make them homosexual.
      Some homosexuals are heterosexually married and have children, but that doesn't take away their same-sex attraction.

      The original question was whether or not Jesus would associate with gay people, and I trust that you recognize that Jesus associates with all sinners in order to draw them to Himself. Note that,

      Christ’s method alone will give true success in reaching the people. The Saviour mingled with men as one who desired their good. He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, and won their confidence. Then He bade them, “Follow Me.”

      There is need of coming close to the people by personal effort. If less time were given to sermonizing, and more time were spent in personal ministry, greater results would be seen. (Ministry of Healing, p. 143)

      I suspect that you may be uncomfortable with my suggestion that homosexual sex is sin like any other sin, and you conclude that I don't take homosexual sex seriously enough. But that's not the case. I think we don't take our sins seriously enough. Instead we like to look at other people's sins and think we are just a little better, thus committing the sin of spiritual pride. And that's the very sin that makes us nearly impervious to the grace of God - the only thing that will save anybody.

  64. Yes. Jesus WOULD hang out with gay people. He would hear when they call, He would meet with them, He would eat with them and certainly --He would never pass them by.
    Jesus loves us all so very much..... He loves us, accepts us, forgives all of our sin no matter what that might be. He does however, come into our 'hearts home' and rearranges the furniture-- actually He throws an awful lot of it away.
    If I were a kleptomaniac, nymphomaniac, homicidal maniac, greedy, full of pride...etc.... Jesus would love me indeed, but He would tell me to step away from my sin.
    I notice that this issue of acceptance in the churched community seems to have ramped up in response to the ramping up of the gay agenda in the media. We need to remain steadfast in showing the love of Christ to all people but, be equally resolute in standing up for the principles of the Bible.
    Isn't it interesting that Christians are becoming the counter-culture in the world. Quickly we have become the ones described as unaccepting,
    unloving, intolerant. Christianity is becoming the new ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLE. Let us remember whose ground we are on and what is at stake for each one of us . Pray, submit, pray some more.

    • I think Jesus would have eaten and been in the company of gay people. Everybody lives with a choice. If discover that they are gay, they have to make a choice. Keep up the lifestyle or change. It might take some time but God able to give power to overcome.

      I had a close childhood friend that I think was gay, the sister is still living, both were church people too. I did not handle this discovery well.

      A former SDA that turned out to be gay and the friend was a Marine and another race too.

      We all need prayer.

  65. Many of the comments under this blog post have touched on appropriate relationships between people, and in that spirit, I recommend this vesper presentation by Pastor Michael Kelly at Oakwood University on Relationships, Opposite Sex, Same Sex, Homosexuality and ... Among other things, he deals with the relationship between David and Jonathan.

    This is aimed at young adults, and if you do not appreciate "real" language regarding relationships, please don't bother to view this video.

    While Michael explains the causes of homosexuality a bit differently than I do, he does recognize that biological and environmental factors work together to form a homosexual orientation. I appreciate his final point - that we need safe environments for life change to take place. Unfortunately most churches currently do not offer such an environment for persons dealing with sexuality issues.

    Apparently we expect people to change before they come to church! If we have the mind of Jesus, we will make our churches safe to come with their troubles.

  66. Here's a great commentary written by Willie and Elaine Oliver on dealing with an issue of a gay wedding. It is called, "The Wedding Invitation" from the "Relationship Rx" column in the July/August 2013 issue of Message Magazine. It is a response to the question of how to treat an invitation to a wedding of two gay partners.

  67. On working with homosexuals. As a retired pastor I think back to when I worked with gay men. They begged me to baptize them into the church and would cry like a baby when I turned them down. It was heart wrenching to say the lease.

    I believed then and now that we must show loving care to all who wish to come to Christ. We must treat them as Christ would. In His ministry Jesus would say. "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." I believe that that concept still applies today. However it is not our place to decide just what the outcome should be in individual cases.

    I turned those folks down because they - for whatever reason - decided to not apply that statement of Jesus.

    • Glenn, I believe we are all agreed that we need to surrender our lives to Jesus. But I'm wondering what you understand by applying "the statement of Jesus." Could you please explain?

      Have you not sinned since you were baptized?

    • Dear Glenn,

      Where does the work of the Holy Spirit fit in with your decision, not to tender to His flock and allow Him to work out His life in him or her, rather than for you and I to decide how an individual should comply with "that" statement? In Hebrews 5 it talks about our spiritual immaturity, so I take from this, our walk with Jesus is about growing in him, from a "milk to solids" experience, coping with change that the Holy Spirit will effect in our lives, if we let him, gradually. But, it is the individual choice, a gift from God, to make that change. So, to turn anyone away from Jesus in the manner you describe, I would ask the question, where does the Holy Spirit fit into making such a decision? If as a disciple, with our witness modelled on Jesus example, would He have done the same?

      God Bless, ulalei

  68. "but simon didn't know what GOD and JESUS are really like-kind and merciful. Simon thought that Homosexuals should be pointed out and avoided' Messiah pg. 309 (paraphrased)

    It is distressing to me to see many comments that think gays are different from them. Somehow Jesus would be avoiding them or gays themselves would run the other way if JESUS is seen coming down the dusty roads of Palestine.

    Have theses people even met the real JESUS? Ellen White has some very direct comments on how Christians should act towards sinners( HOMOSEXUALS).

    I want to say to all the gay people here (Christian or not) to not to listen to such foolishness. It is the devil's plan for you to place no hope in CHRIST. And the devil will even use CHRIST's CHILDREN, if he can, to turn you all away. JESUS is full of non-condemnation and love for you. HE would have died for you even if you were the only Homosexual on earth. God is not ruled by our culture or prejudices or fears or ignorance. Please take that into consideration when reading the comments.

  69. I've read the many comments, and the question that I am asking, is this really about mingling with Gay people? or is this an acceptance of Gay people coming to church, and church fully accepting that this gay couple who is legally married should be accepted in the fellowship and be able to practice and live their lives like any other married couple? Because if the question was straightforward as mingling with gays, Jesus would have no problem dealing with that, cause he loves all mankind regardless of their status, but make no joke, he does not tolerate gay or heterosexual sins. SO should gays come to church as a couple or if they are dating, and be accepted fully in the fellowship?

    • Hi Elizabeth,

      My concern is that we demonstrate the love of God to gay people the way Jesus did.

      Christ’s method alone will give true success in reaching the people. The Saviour mingled with men as one who desired their good. He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, and won their confidence. Then He bade them, “Follow Me.”

      There is need of coming close to the people by personal effort. If less time were given to sermonizing, and more time were spent in personal ministry, greater results would be seen. (Ellen White, Ministry of Healing, p. 143)

      Among other things, this would mean that we minister to their needs and demonstrate that we love them before trying to tell them what they ought to do.

      I am not advocating changing our church membership policy.

      You wrote,

      but make no joke, he does not tolerate gay or heterosexual sins

      It seems to me that Christ does not cast us off when we are still full of sins. Instead, He draws us close to Himself and cleans us up when we submit our will to His. (We need to remember that the sin of pride is every bit as hateful to him as sexual sins. Ellen White likened the sin of gossip to cannibalism, and that sin does not seem to be absent in the church.)

      To your specific inquiry re gays coming to church "as a couple," I say, praise the Lord that they do come! And do your best to demonstrate the love of God to them and minister to their needs. When you have established a basis of friendship, and they ask for baptism, then is the time to go through the baptismal vows one by one and ask if they will surrender their own desires in favor of God's requirements. The same rules apply to all who asks for baptism.

      On the other hand, no one is to be excluded from attending our worship services on the basis of the amount of sin in their lives (as if we could judge accurately). Our churches are supposed to be hospitals for sinners, and they can only be that if we recognize our responsibility to minister the love of Jesus to all who come.

  70. I understand the use of the statement of Christ when He said to go and sin no more. That applies to you and me today. Of course we cannot judge others - that is not our job here on earth. However if an individual openly decided not to follow the teachings of Christ and His word, it would be wise to allow them to make their decision for themselves.

    • Hi Glenn,

      Thank you for your reply. I believe you meant this as a reply to my reply to your previous comment. Now I just want to make sure I understand what you required of those gay men who asked for baptism.

      In the case of gay people, if they refuse to surrender themselves fully to Christ, including their sexuality, that would, indeed, mean that they are not ready for baptism, and it would not be right to baptize them.

      However, you wrote,

      They begged me to baptize them into the church and would cry like a baby when I turned them down.

      That did not sound like rebellion to me, and I was wondering what you required of them. I will share a bit of my experience with gay people below.

      I have known gay couples who lived together for many years, while being faithful to God's sexual standards. One couple lived together for over 35 years before one partner died. They had actually owned a couple of gay bars in San Francisco. One of them was a former Adventist who had been rather badly treated and misguided by the church and then plunged into life in the gay community. When he could resist the call of God no longer, he came back to the church and brought his Roman Catholic partner with him. The church accepted the sincerity of their profession, without requiring them to split up their assets and live on separate properties. They served the church faithfully for years before the original Adventist man died. I can see how they might have been placed in a real dilemma if the pastor who baptized them had required them to split up and split up their assets as a requirement for baptism. (That would be the pastor's personal interpretation of biblical standards, rather than a biblical requirement.) As it was, I knew the couple for years, and I know that they kept each other faithful. The love and respect they had for each other actually prevented them from engaging in sex.

      The congregation did not regularly ask them whether they were living celibately. (They were.) We do not regularly ask our heterosexual members whether they are living in sexual purity, including abstention from pornography. (And pornography would surely fall into the category of lusting.) We leave it as a matter between them and God. There is no reason to have a different standard for those with a homosexual orientation.

      I know of another two gay men who do not advertise themselves as a "gay couple" but simply call each other friends. Due to the financial hardship of one of them, they are currently sharing housing. It is the best solution for them both. Yet some would consider them "living in sin" simply because they are both homosexually oriented. I don't believe God sees them that way. He sees not only at the choices in their lives, but also the intention of their hearts. And I believe that they may be closer to His heart than some of us more conventional Adventists.

  71. To me one of the best examples of how Jesus treated sinners is the way He treated Judas. Perhaps one of the most outstanding things is that He never openly rebuked Judas even though He could have (Jn 12:6). There is more to the story though. While He never pointed fingers He did rebuke Judas personally when he complained about Mary’s anointing of Jesus but He did so in a way that the other disciples didn’t perceive it.

    For the purposes of this thread I think we need to understand that while He was painfully kind to Judas He did so for many reasons especially when it came to the other disciples’ respect of Judas. Jesus adhered to His own advice, “The servants said to him,`Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' But he said,`No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest’” (Mat 13:28-30 NKJV).

    What Jesus did do was to mildly discourage Judas at the beginning when he was in the process of joining the group as Ellen White said:

    While Jesus was preparing the disciples for their ordination, one who had not been summoned urged his presence among them. It was Judas Iscariot, a man who professed to be a follower of Christ. He now came forward, soliciting a place in this inner circle of disciples. With great earnestness and apparent sincerity he declared, “Master, I will follow Thee whithersoever Thou goest.” Jesus neither repulsed nor welcomed him, but uttered only the mournful words: “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head.” Matthew 8:19, 20
    Judas believed Jesus to be the Messiah; and by joining the apostles, he hoped to secure a high position in the new kingdom. This hope Jesus designed to cut off by the statement of His poverty.
    The disciples were anxious that Judas should become one of their number. He was of commanding appearance, a man of keen discernment and executive ability, and they commended him to Jesus as one who would greatly assist Him in His work. They were surprised that Jesus received him so coolly. (The Desire of Ages, p. 293.2-293.1)

    To me that is the same as welcoming sinners to church but requiring a bit more to join the church through baptism. It also says that we are not to bring unrepentant sinners into full fellowship until there is some sign of repentance and that is where I see the relationship of the gay community to the church.

  72. Glenn, I would like to ask one very pointed question concerning the discussion you and Inge are having for the sake of clarification.

    You said that even though the gay people begged you to baptize them you came to the decision not to honor their request. My question is exactly what was it that brought you to that decision? In other words was it something they said or did or was it something having to do solely with a particular theological position on your part? Or was it a little of both?

  73. Thanks, Grace, for pointing us to this interview with Rosaria Butterfield. She reminds me so much of a dear friend that it was a delight to watch the interview.

    It's a good counterpoint to the Seventh-Gay Adventist movie. 🙂

  74. In your post its mentioned that, "God who wants nothing more than to see us happy, healthy and holy – both here and in the hereafter."
    True , "Happy is the people who's God is the lord" And as far as the healthy and holy, "...forget not all his benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases..." Psalm 144:15 and 103:2,3 respectively.
    Isn't that what Jesus came to do? John 8:36, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." speaking of those that were once in sin, and were now free from it.
    1Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor 'effeminate', nor 'abusers of themselves' with mankind (homosexuals, as they had no such term back then), Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
    "And such 'were' some of you:" They were once a certain way, but now they have been changed. Surrendered to God.
    ! Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be 'in' Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."There is hope for any one who is slave to sin. Romans 6:2, "... How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
    That's what Jesus did on the cross, He crucified the sin nature, so we don't have to live in it any longer. "How shall we?" Big question! Here's the answer! We should not live any longer, 'therein'. This is the way to get these "three blessings"of happy, healthy and holy. Because we have the new creation way of living now, thanks to the 'Cross'. Romans 4:25, "Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." Nailed to the tree and rose from the dead, securing our (just as if I never sinned) position. For without both ingredients, ! Corinthians 15:17, would be a grim reality, "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins."
    But we believe the gospel record that He rose from the dead, and forever lives. So we are now dead to sin and no longer servants of it. John 8:34, Jesus said, "Truly I say unto you, whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin."
    Why did Jesus come, to "hang out"? Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life,.." John 10:10.

    • Thanks for your comment, Don. It is helpful to remember that language and concepts have changed. When we mention gay people/homosexuals today, we are referring to people who are intrinsically attracted to their own sex, rather than the opposite sex - even if they are virgins. In other words, the term does not necessarily imply sexual activity or even sexual fantasy. It is just a statement of sexual orientation, just like "heterosexual" is.

      In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul gives a very hopeful message - that it is possible for those who once engaged in immorality of various kinds to be "washed, sanctified, and justified." That message is for you and me with our sinful nature as well as those for whom a homosexual orientation is part of their sinful nature.

      Did you take the opportunity to view the vesper presentation by Pastor Michael Kelly at Oakwood University on Relationships, Opposite Sex, Same Sex, Homosexuality and ... on Youtube? If not, I recommend that you do. His presentation is quite balanced.


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