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Why Lucifer Needed to Destroy God’s Perfect Law to Set up his own Government — 17 Comments

1. This makes so much sense how you explain it. When I try to explain it, it comes out much more confusingly. Thank you for your explanations that help us understand the things of God better. I always learn something from your articles.

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2. Thank you Karen for your kind, encouraging words. I hope everyone had a blessed Sabbath.

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3. Thank you for a clear explanation on the necessity of God's law. The question I have is, Why are preachers who preach the law is done away with still preaching if as you state they preach themselves out of a job? It seems many have fallen under Isa.30:9-11? Continue the good work. Blessings.

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4. But even if the devil succeeded om "Changing" not "Destroying" God's Law (for even in Daniel it says that he, "the Beast Power," would "think to change times and laws.") The Beast Power only split the tenth commandment to become "Thou shalt not covet they neighbors wife" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors' goods." The Beast Poser did this so that it could then "Remove" the second commandment that forbids "Idols and idol worship" so that it could go on to then justify the "Veneration of Saints and statues of them." But God did not allow that Beast Power to remove or even change not one single thing regarding the other "Nine Commandments" at all. For even the "Fourth Commandment" was only "Changed" but not "Removed," because it has to do with something no one can truly get rid of at all---"The Seven Day Week Cycle," So it just tried to change "The Sabbath Day" to become "The First Day of the week." But when it comes to "The Character of God," no one can truly change that one at all because Jesus demonstrated that "Flawlessly!"

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   • Pete, Satan has been working not just through the dark ages but through much of modern Christianity to void the entire ten commandments.

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5. You wrote:

   “This does not make sense to me, because since when has a law ever been done away with when someone paid the penalty for breaking that law? Paying for speeding tickets does not do away with speed limits. Serving time in prison for a felony does not do away with the laws of the nation. Never in all eternity has anyone ever paid the penalty for breaking a law and done away with the law at the same time, so why would anyone think Jesus did away with God’s law by paying the penalty for breaking His law?”

   I’m not one of those Christians who believe that the law is done away with. I believe the law is fulfilled in Christ, that the law is complete in Christ.

   But I have an issue with the kind of law you are propagating in the name of God’s law. God’s law is design law with inherent consequences. Violating God’s has inherent consequences which God doesn’t have to inflict upon the lawbreaker. There is no such thing as paying the penalty for breaking God’s law. Jesus did not die to pay the penalty for our breaking God’s law. Jesus died to fix what Adam broke in man. When Adam sinned, God didn’t change an iota, His law did not change an iota, what changed was man’s heart. The plan of salvation is designed to fix what Adam broke in the heart of humanity. Adam broke trust and love with God, and Jesus came to restore trust and love back in our heart. Adam introduced to the world sin and death and Jesus died to destroy sin & death and bring life and immortality to light – Heb 2:14-15; 2 Tim 1:10. Adam corrupted the nature of man and Jesus died to purge our sins by Himself and recreate us anew in Himself – Heb 1:3; 5:9; 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:10; 2:22-24. The idea that Jesus died to pay for our sins is a lie and a fraud which makes out God’s law to be an arbitrarily imposed rules without inherent consequences which God must enforce by infliction of punishment on those who break the rules. In conclusion, promoting the wrong kind of law is the same and perhaps worse than believing that the law is done away with.

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   • Again, Mathios, you said it very well when you wrote

     I believe the law is fulfilled in Christ, that the law is complete in Christ.

     As I mentioned previously, this was prophesied in Psalm 40:8.

     But then you go on to write:

     Violating God’s has inherent consequences which God doesn’t have to inflict upon the lawbreaker.

     That's an interesting statement which, on the surface, at least, is easily disproven on a daily basis: Evildoers prosper in spite of their evil-doing. The psalm writers spend a fair bit of time bemoaning this situation.

     That doesn't mean that I disagree with you on the basic premise. God did, indeed, design life on this planet to operate a certain way, and violating His design has consequences. But things don't appear to be quite as simple as you make it sound. Yes, sin affects the sinner. Each time you or I sin we change for the worse in our characters. Each time we violate the laws of our being, we change ourselves to be more likely to suffer health issues.

     Also, it's a no-brainer that a sinner's wish to be separate from the LifeGiver results in death. That is an eternal consequence. But in this life, sinners often prosper and the righteous suffer. The Bible also appears to indicate that God has something to do with the way those eternal consequences are applied. They don't just "happen naturally." The way the Bible describes it multiple times, the Lord does, indeed, "inflict" the final punishment. But it is something that sinners have chosen because they chose to separate themselves from God. It is in no way "arbitrary." But neither does it happen without God's active involvement.

     For instance, all humans will be resurrected. Some will be resurrected to be taken to heaven. Others will be resurrected in order to receive the judgment of "damnation." (John 5:29 also Dan 12:2) Can you explain how the "resurrection of damnation" is an "inherent consequence"? If eternal death is merely the inherent consequence of sin, why will God resurrect sinners only to inflict the final consequences?

     Your argument also appears to leave out the agency of the Holy Spirit and the angels - each of whom intervene in human affairs on a daily basis. But then, you probably disagree with that, if you believe that law and consequences are all "inherent" in creation.

     What about the the death of the animals who died at the gate of Eden to clothe our first parents with their skins? Was that an inherent consequence of something the animals chose? Or did our Creator perhaps directly intervene to cause these animals to die to teach Adam and Eve an eternal truth?

     There is no such thing as paying the penalty for breaking God’s law. Jesus did not die to pay the penalty for our breaking God’s law.

     I trust you realize that your statement attempts to erase the most fundamental principle on which Christianity is built - that Jesus died the death of sinners so that sinners who trust in Him may partake in the life that is inherently His.

     Tell me, did the wise man write truth in Eccl 11:9; Eccl. 12:14? The latter says, "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Why would that be, if consequences are all inherent, and God just lets the inherent consequences happen?

     While the OT writers generally looked forward to justification in God's judgment, Paul refers to a different aspect of judgment in his letters, such as Rom. 1:32; Rom. 2:2-5. And why does the writer of Hebrews refer to "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries"? (Heb 10:27)

     What does Christ mean when He says, "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"? Matt 25:30 And what does the parable of the sheep and the goats teach, if not that there will be a real end-of-the-world judgment? (Matt 25:31-46)

     What did Christ mean when He said, "I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt 12:36-37) To me that sounds like a judgment that will allow sinners to realize that they "earned" their wages of death, however that happens.

     What do NT writers mean by referring to the "judgment seat of Christ"? (Rom 14:10; 1Cor 1:10) ... And that's probably enough for now even there's much more "judgment" talk in the Bible.

     I'd summarize it this way: The inherent consequence of sin is death, because sin is chosen separation from the LifeGiver. But God doesn't just let it happen. He has scheduled a judgment during which He will demonstrate to the universe that the death of unrepentant sinners is just. And He has also said how He will apply the final consequence of death.

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     • You wrote: “But in this life, sinners often prosper and the righteous suffer”.

       Why do you think that is?

       One of the myths widely believed in Christian circles is the idea that material prosperity is a blessing or a curse. It’s neither. Material prosperity has nothing to do with being godly or ungodly because we have more than enough evidence of a rich sinner and a rich saint in the world. Abraham was a rich saint and Osama Bin Laden was a rich sinner. Most of the members of the apostolic church were poor saints and most of the pagans were poor sinners.

       The Psalmist had the same query as you regarding why the wicked prosper in this world, but he found the answer in the sanctuary.

       Psalm 73:16-17 “When I thought how to understand this, It was [e]too painful for me— 17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; Then I understood their end”.

       When Adam sinned, God did not completely abandon him, if He did, Adam would have died body and soul on the day he separated himself from God. God immediately began interceding in three areas:

       • In the heart of man [Gen 3:15]

       • With the evil forces of the fallen angels [Jude 1:6; 2 Pet 2:4; Rev 7:1]

       • Finally, with His Son Jesus Christ who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel [2 Tim 1:10]

       In other words, God intervened to suspend the wages of sin, to keep the wages of sin at bay. God always intervenes to heal and fix brokenness, He doesn’t intervene to inflict pain, suffering and death.

       God even created an artificial death called the first death which the bible calls a sleep until Christ could come and provide the Remedy for our sin condition. According to God, nobody has ever died yet, everybody’s life is preserved by God in a sleeping mode. For this reason, when the daughter of Jairus died, Jesus said:

       “Do not weep; SHE IS NOT DEAD, BUT SLEEPING.” 53 And THEY RIDICULED HIM, knowing that she was dead” [Luke 8:52-53].

       But the people who were mourning laughed at him and today when we say nobody has died, all are asleep, people laugh at the idea but who cares, if they laughed at my master, they would most certainly laugh at me. Notice how the Psalmist says the wicked live at ease:

       “For I was envious of the boastful, When I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 For there are no [a]pangs in their death, But their strength is firm. 5 They are not in trouble as other men, Nor are they plagued like other men” [Ps 73:3-5].

       Whereas the bible says:

       “Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution” [2 Tim 3:12].

       This is easy to understand why. Whenever there is brokenness, there are no pain free solutions. The righteous experience pain and suffering because they are partaking of the Remedy Jesus provided and they are experiencing healing and transformation of character whereas the wicked do not take the Remedy and they do not experience healing and transformation and therefore, their life is mostly pain free. But the day will come when God will let go everyone which the bible calls “God’s wrath” and Paul says they are only treasuring wrath (condemnation which is the fire of guilt that will burn them up) in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God:

       Rom 2:5-6 “But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you ARE [B]TREASURING UP FOR YOURSELF WRATH IN THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

       You thought I didn’t believe in the judgment of God, but I do believe in the judgment of God but not the way Christians teach it, but the way the bible teaches it. Those who believe in God’s law as imposed laws without inherent consequences believe God’s judgment to be legal finding and determination of arbitrarily imposed punishment. And if you believe that God’s law is imposed law, you have no option but to believe that God will have to wield might and power to enforce His law by infliction of punishment on those who break his rules. You have to believe that God runs the universe like Caesar runs Rome.

       But I believe that God’s laws are design laws with inherent consequences, they are protocols upon which all reality and life operate, and disharmony with God’s design laws always result in pain, suffering and death whereas harmony with God’s design for life always result in happiness, health, and life. Therefore, I believe that God’s judgment is diagnosis, therapeutic interventions, pronouncement of natural result. Example:

       Hosea 4:17 “Ephraim is joined to idols, Let him alone”.

       God judges (diagnoses) Ephraim to be joined to idols and His verdict is let him alone, let him go to experience what he has chosen.

       Rev 22:11 “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [e]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

       Jesus diagnoses the conditions of hearts and minds, and He lets everyone go to experience the result of their choice. It’s not His judgment that makes the unjust unjust and the filthy filthy. His judgment is simply revelatory of the conditions of hearts and minds.

       You can examine the two judgments in the first part of the book of Daniel (chapters 4&5), God’s judgment of Nebuchadnezzar was therapeutic intervention designed to heal and save the king and it did just that whereas God’s judgment of Belshazzar was to let him go to experience what he had wilfully, deliberately, persistently and ultimately chose.

       Design laws are the laws upon which our Creator God constructed reality to operate. These are laws such as the law of gravity, laws of physics, laws of health, and also God’s moral laws. Deviations from design laws always damage those who break them and will result in death, unless the Designer intervenes to heal and restore. Thus the Bible teaches:

       • The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)

       • sin grows and brings death. (James 1:15 NCV)

       • The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction (Gal 6:8)

       Examples of violations of design law are:

       • Jump off a building—die

       • Smoke regularly—ruin one’s health and die younger

       • Commit adultery—sear conscience, harden heart, form character of a cheat, and, if no repentance and healing from God, die eternally

       Thus, the plan of salvation is the Father & His Son working together to heal and restore their creation back into harmony with their design—ridding the universe of sin. In this view, sin (which is being out of harmony with God’s design law, the design protocols for life) is the source of pain, suffering, and death. God is the source of healing and life.

       Humans cannot create space, time, energy, matter, or life, thus we cannot create or change God’s design laws. What we can do is make up rules that we call laws and then threaten to punish people who don’t keep our rules. This is the way of sinful beings. This is Satan’s view and Satan’s way.

       [Moderator Note: Please use a first and last name on our blog, as we ask in our Comment Guide Lines.]

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       • Mathios, you eloquently express so much of what we believe!

         However, you imply that we hold to a view that is not accurate when you write:

         You thought I didn’t believe in the judgment of God, but I do believe in the judgment of God but not the way Christians teach it, but the way the bible teaches it. Those who believe in God’s law as imposed laws without inherent consequences believe God’s judgment to be legal finding and determination of arbitrarily imposed punishment. And if you believe that God’s law is imposed law, you have no option but to believe that God will have to wield might and power to enforce His law by infliction of punishment on those who break his rules. You have to believe that God runs the universe like Caesar runs Rome.

         Seeing the judgment not quite the same as you do is not the same as seeing God's law as "imposed law." It's not an either/or situation, but much more complex.

         We agree that God created the universe to operate on both physical and spiritual laws in harmony with His nature of self-renouncing love, and that deviation from that law results in harm. In fact, it was because of this, that our first parents lost their Eden home, and they would have lost their lives too if the Creator had not intervened and granted grace on the basis of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)

         You wrote that

         But I believe that God’s laws are design laws with inherent consequences, they are protocols upon which all reality and life operate, and disharmony with God’s design laws always result in pain, suffering and death whereas harmony with God’s design for life always result in happiness, health, and life.

         I think we both agree that these "inherent consequences" are not necessarily experienced in this life, but refer to eternal consequences.

         I believe the word "judgment" in the Bible refers to a number of different scenarios. Yes, many times it is diagnostic. But other times, it is an imposition of consequences, both temporal and eternal.

         I find this comment interesting:

         God even created an artificial death called the first death which the bible calls a sleep until Christ could come and provide the Remedy for our sin condition.

         I had not known anyone referring to the first death as "artificial" before. 😉 I think I know what you mean, because the "second death" is the actual consequence of sin.

         However, there's a whole other aspect to this subject: Should Adam and Even not have died instantly when they chose to go a way separate from their Creator? That would have been the "inherent consequence" of their separation from the LifeGiver. But, instead of letting them experience the natural consequence of their sin, God granted them and us a period of probation during which we could learn and practice full trust in Him. I believe that even this probationary life was granted on the basis of Christ's sacrificial death on the cross.

         So, the first death is not "artificial" in that sense, but our life, in spite of sin might be considered "artificial" in the way you use the word. What do you think?

         You wrote

         Design laws are the laws upon which our Creator God constructed reality to operate. These are laws such as the law of gravity, laws of physics, laws of health, and also God’s moral laws. Deviations from design laws always damage those who break them and will result in death, unless the Designer intervenes to heal and restore.

         I believe it is a mistake to put physical and spiritual laws on the same level. If we break physical laws, we always experience the consequences either immediately or in a longer time frame, depending on the nature of the laws violated. However, God's grace comes into play when we break His moral laws. If we break God's moral law, we generally continue to live, due to God's grace, with some exceptions, such as the sons of Aaron who presumed to bring unholy fire into the temple and the families of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram who rebelled against Moses' (and God's) leadership.

         Scripture also makes clear that God is in control of how and when the chosen consequence of sin will happen . It does not teach that sinners self-destruct, as some of your statements appear to imply.

         I believe there is much more to God's judgment than either of us have mentioned so far. For one thing, I believe that, in the final judgment, God Himself is on trial before the whole universe.

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   • Hello Mathios, a few thoughts

     You wrote:

     “But I have an issue with the kind of law you are propagating in the name of God’s law. God’s law is design law with inherent consequences. Violating God’s law has inherent consequences which God doesn’t have to inflict upon the lawbreaker. There is no such thing as paying the penalty for breaking God’s law. Jesus did not die to pay the penalty for our breaking God’s law. Jesus died to fix what Adam broke in man. When Adam sinned, God didn’t change an iota, His law did not change an iota, what changed was man’s heart. The plan of salvation is designed to fix what Adam broke in the heart of humanity. Adam broke trust and love with God, and Jesus came to restore trust and love back in our heart. Adam introduced to the world sin and death and Jesus died to destroy sin & death and bring life and immortality to light – Heb 2:14-15; 2 Tim 1:10. Adam corrupted the nature of man and Jesus died to purge our sins by Himself and recreate us anew in Himself – Heb 1:3; 5:9; 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:10; 2:22-24. The idea that Jesus died to pay for our sins is a lie and a fraud which makes out God’s law to be an arbitrarily imposed rules without inherent consequences which God must enforce by infliction of punishment on those who break the rules. In conclusion, promoting the wrong kind of law is the same and perhaps worse than believing that the law is done away with.”

     You wrote:

     “There is no such thing as paying the penalty for breaking God’s law. Jesus did not die to pay the penalty for our breaking God’s law.”

     May I present God’s word?
     Gen: 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

     We know that God instituted the system of substitute sacrifice and the next story is about Cain and Able bringing their sacrifices.

     The story of Abraham being asked to offer Isaac and Abraham, in faith, telling Isaac that God would himself provide a lamb for the burnt offering. Gen 22:8 And God did both then and at Calvary.

     The setting up of the sanctuary in the wilderness and all the laws that went along with it, giving precise instructions of what offerings would substitute for different transgressions very clearly showed that there was a penalty that needed to be paid and the penalty was death. Sin would be confessed over the substitute animal and then the person confessing would have to slay the animal and the priest would then burn the required parts of the animal and take some of the blood into the holy place to place on the horns of the alter of incense or sprinkle it before the vail into the most holy place.

     Hebrews 9-10 is quite a clear explanation of how all this pointed forward to Christ who would take our sins upon himself and shed his blood to pay the penalty for our sins. Not only did he obtain forgiveness for us but the right to cleanse us from all iniquity, to remake us into loving, caring, compassionate people who reflected God’s own compassionate character.
     Here are just a few quotes from those chapters.

     Hebrews 9: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

     Heb 9: 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood there is no remission ……28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many…..

     Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second, by the which will, we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. … 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; …. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

     Here are a few more scriptures:

     Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

     1 Corinthians 15: 3 …Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures;

     2 Corinthians 5: 19….21 God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation……For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

     Isaiah 53: 5-7 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. ….the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all……He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

     Isaiah 53: 10-12 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; ….when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand…..by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities…..he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

     John introduced Jesus by saying: “Behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.”
     ----------------------------------------------------
     I think you are absolutely correct in stating “Adam corrupted the nature of man and Jesus died to purge our sins by Himself and recreate us anew in Himself,” Jesus does that. He gives us his word, the bread to eat daily to learn how to live a loving life, we are washed by the word. He invites us to bring our petitions, sorrows, burdens, confessions to the alter of incense, daily. He promises to enable us to live thru the power of the Spirit which enlightens our minds and changes our hearts and asks us to be lights to others and to intercede for others and to give others bread, daily. This is the holy place ministry of the sanctuary but it does not negate the alter of sacrifice portion where the penalty of death for sin was paid by Jesus, our substitute.

     You wrote:

     “The idea that Jesus died to pay for our sins is a lie and a fraud which makes out God’s law to be an arbitrarily imposed rules without inherent consequences which God must enforce by infliction of punishment on those who break the rules.”

     I don’t see how you arrive at that conclusion. It would be like saying that when we get a traffic ticket for breaking the speed limit and have to pay a penalty, that would prove the law was arbitrary and had no real purpose except to make money for the state. Never mind about the law being made to help us all be safe.

     In the same way, God’s law is simply a description of how love acts. It doesn’t lie, steal, cheat, murder etc. If we chose to live in a selfish, unloving manner we will forfeit life, which is death. Death is not natural but the price of sin, and scripture clearly states that God will destroy the wicked. They do not self-destruct any more than they could create themselves. God is the Giver of life, and He will take it away. This is not mean or vengeful but merciful, for it brings an end to suffering and evil. Does God like doing that? He says not. I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the evil man would turn from his wicked ways and live. (Ezekiel 19:32) But He will do it as He promised. Rev 20: 12-15 I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened…and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works……15 and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

     This doesn’t sound much like something that happens naturally to me.

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     • I believe in the substitutionary death of the Lord Jesus Christ. What I reject is the theory that He was our substitute in order to pay the penalty for our sin. If you can give me one Scripture verse where we are told that the purpose of His substitutionary death was to pay the penalty for our sins, please present it to us and I will join your camp. But here is the biblical purpose of His substitutionary death:

       2 Cor 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, THAT WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM”.

       “God made Jesus Christ who knew no sin to be sin for us” Pause! This is what we call substitution. Then, in the next phrase Paul tells us the purpose, the reason why God made Jesus to be our substitute as follows: “THAT WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM”.

       And I cannot emphasize enough the word “BECOME”. The penal/legal theologians believe that when we accept the legal payment Jesus made on our behalf, God will declare us to be righteous even though we are still unrighteous, which is a lie. The bible says the purpose of His substitutionary death was NOT so that we might be DECLARED, rather, the purpose of His substitutionary death was so that we might BECOME the righteousness of God.

       You wrote: “It would be like saying that when we get a traffic ticket for breaking the speed limit and have to pay a penalty, that would prove the law was arbitrary and had no real purpose except to make money for the state. Never mind about the law being made to help us all be safe”.

       Well, traffic law is imposed law without inherent consequences, you can violate traffic law and get away with it, but God’s law is natural, design law with inherent consequences. You cannot get away with breaking God’s laws such as the law of gravity, the law of respiration, etc… There is punishment for breaking the law of respiration. If you violate the law of respiration by tying plastic bag over your head, you will die of suffocation. The punishment is inherent in the violation itself whereas the punishment for breaking traffic law is not inherent in the violation, rather, it is arbitrarily imposed by the Policeman who writes to you citation which you must pay. There is punishment for breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics by not brushing your teeth, but the punishment does not come from God, the punishment comes from germs. Likewise, there is terrible punishment for breaking God’s laws of love and liberty, but the punishment does not come from God, the punishment comes from sin (selfishness) – James 1:15; Gal 6:8; Rom 6:23; Ps 34:21.

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6. You wrote: “The Sabbath commandment is like a seal to God’s government. It has His name “The Lord.” It has God’s title, “Created” (Creator), and it states His jurisdiction, “the heavens and the earth. the sea and all that is within them.”

   This idea that the Sabbath commandment is the seal of God is nonbiblical. It’s entirely of Adventist making designed to make Sabbatarians feel good about themselves while condemning those who go to church on Sunday. The bible clearly teaches that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not a day, the seventh day of the week.

   Eph 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise,”

   You were sealed WITH the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean you were sealed WITH the seventh day Sabbath.

   The Holy Spirit of God is the power and presence of God [Ps 51:11; 139:7], it is the character of God. God is Spirit [John 4:24] and God is holy, and therefore God is the Holy Spirit, His character is holy & righteous, and the righteous requirement of the law is love [Rom 13:9-10; James 2:8; Matt 22:37-40] and God is love [1 John 4:8, 16]. Thus, the book of Revelation says the seal of God which God will seal the 144 thousand with is the name (character) of God the Father:

   Rev 14:1 “Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, [b]HAVING HIS FATHER’S NAME WRITTEN ON THEIR FOREHEADS”.

   And God’s name is not a day, the seventh day of the week. The seventh day of the week is part of creation and God’s name is not part of creation for God’s sake. God’s name is as eternal and divine as God is because God’s name is God’s character.

   So, when we believe in Jesus Christ and are born again, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God which is the power and presence of God in our heart (spirit) and just before the second coming of Christ, God’s special forces known as the 144 thousand will be sealed with the name (character) of God in their foreheads (mind/soul). The bible never teaches that the end time seal of God is the seventh day Sabbath which is part of creation. This claim that the seventh day of the week is the seal of God is a terrible fiction at best and it is blasphemy at worst. It is the same as changing the glory (character) of God with the creature (a day) just like the gentiles have done so:

   “and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things” [Rom 1:23].

   And Sunday is not the mark of the beast either, if you say it is, give us a “thus says the Lord” from the holy bible. I know how most Adventists will respond to my challenge, they will say you are lawless, you reject God’s law, etc.... I am not under the law though; Adventists believe that they are under the Ten Commandments but thank God that I’m not under the Ten Commandments either.

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   • Thank you for your comment, Mathios.

     I appreciate your referencing the work of the Holy Spirit, with which I heartily agree. I do not, however, draw quite the same conclusions.

     The way I see it, the Bible clearly says that believers are sealed "with the Holy Spirit," not that the Holy Spirit is "the seal. (See Eph. 1:13; Eph. 4:30) There is a significant difference.

     The word "seal" goes back to ancient times when wax was used to seal a document, then stamped with a metal "seal." The Dictionary.com definition is:

     an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity:
     Without the seal, the certificate is useless.

     a stamp, medallion, ring, etc., engraved with such a device, for impressing paper, wax, lead, or the like:
     The king took the seal from his finger and applied it to the document.

     And this definition cannot apply to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but it can certainly apply to the authenticity of His work.

     I read that "the sign of circumcision" is also considered a seal of righteousness. (Rom. 4:11) So it may be that the visible seal of God may look a little different at various times in history.

     I particularly appreciate this in your comment

     Thus, the book of Revelation says the seal of God which God will seal the 144 thousand with is the name (character) of God the Father:

     Rev 14:1 “Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, [b]HAVING HIS FATHER’S NAME WRITTEN ON THEIR FOREHEADS”.

     ... and just before the second coming of Christ, God’s special forces known as the 144 thousand will be sealed with the name (character) of God in their foreheads (mind/soul).

     I most heartily agree with your statement as quoted. However, I believe that the Bible teaches a progression of Christian growth after being "born again." A baby doesn't get born mature. Neither does a Christian. Many things can happen after the original "born again" experience. A baby grows to full maturity in a man or woman with a distinct character, either righteous or unrighteous. So does a born-again Christian. I see the Holy Spirit as the regenerating agent who produces the character of Christ in His disciples.

     Of Christ, the Messianic Psalm 40 says, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." (Psalm 40:8) As the gospel record demonstrates, harmony with God's Holy Law of Love characterized the life of Christ.

     In the book of Hebrews we read that Jesus is "the mediator of the new covenant." Heb. 12:24 The New Covenant promise is that the Lord will put His Law "in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." (Jere 31:31-33) The Holy Spirit brings about this change of character, as you rightly point out.

     But notice that the New Covenant does not nullify the Law of God. It "fulfills" it in the life of believers, just as it was "fulfilled" in the life of Christ. The Lord said that He does not change (Mal 3:6) which we know without reference to a text, I'm sure. And his Law is "perfect," (Pslam 19:7) and thus it stands to reason that it does not change either.

     So let's apply that to what William wrote. (I grant he could have worded it a bit more clearly.) In the last days, of which Revelation speaks, the chief commandment that is universally ignored is the fourth commandment - the commandment that reminds us that God is our Creator and Redeemer. That "seventh day" takes our mind back to God's finished act of creation. The very word "Sabbath" reminds us that we find our rest in Him. Thus the Sabbath is a weekly reminder that we are not saved by our own works, but by His grace. (Even before Jesus came to this planet and gave His life for us, the Lord let the Hebrew people know that the Sabbath is a sign of His work of sanctification. Ex. 31:13; Eze 20:12; Eze 20:20)

     Thus, I conclude that the visible sign of the Holy Spirit's sealing work of sanctification will, in the end time, be the keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath, which the rest of the world does not honor. Willian is correct when he writes:

     The Sabbath commandment is like a seal to God’s government. It has His name “The Lord.” It has God’s title, “Created” (Creator), and it states His jurisdiction, “the heavens and the earth. the sea and all that is within them.”

     I do not believe that the Sabbath is currently functioning as a reliable sign of sanctification in areas of the world where no hardship is involved in keeping the Sabbath. It's easy to carry a flag in a parade, but to carry it in the midst of battle is a different matter. In the battle, only the truly committed are willing to carry the flag. Thus, even now, when Sabbath-keeping means loss of job, imprisonment or death (depending on the situation) only those fully committed to Christ and trusting in Him will hold up the Sabbath flag.

     Neither do I believe that Sunday is currently the "mark of the beast." It is likely that today, more of God's people are ignorant of the significance of the Sabbath than are keeping it in spirit and in truth. But when the issues become clear and people are forced to decide between the sign of the Holy Spirit's sanctifying power and the sign of the authority of an earthly ruler, then only those who are sealed by the Spirit will be honoring the Sabbath of the Lord.

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     • Thank you for your gracious response, Inge! I appreciate your attempt to enlighten me on the seal of God. First off, if you believe that the Holy Spirit of God is an individual person distinct from God and Christ, if you believe that the Holy Spirit is a person who sits on a throne like the Father and His Son, then, I can understand why you find it hard to recognize the Holy Spirit as the seal of God. But the bible introduces the Holy Spirit as the power and influence (hand) of God [Job 26:12-13; Ezekiel 3:14; 8:3; Luke 11:12 = Matt 12:28]; the life and character of God [John 6:63; Rom 1:4], the presence of God [Ps 51:11; 139:7; Rom 8:9-11; Acts 5:3-4], the breath of God [Job 27:3; Gen 2:7; John 20:22], the mind of God [Isaiah 40:13 = Rom 11:34] etc… The Holy Spirit of God is not a different person to God, it is the property of God, it is something that belongs to God. By definition, the spirit of someone is not a different person to the owner of the spirit. Man has a spirit, but my spirit is not a different person to me, my spirit is I myself, not another person.

       I know that trinitarians make the Holy Spirit of God an individual person distinct from God, one who sits on a throne like God and Christ sit on their thrones. That is not biblical, you cannot show me one place in the bible where the Holy Spirit sits on a throne like the Father and His Son sit on a throne.

       The preposition “with” is significant in the statement “….you were sealed WITH the Holy Spirit of promise” [Eph 1:13]. The meaning of the preposition “with” is the same as in the statement “I indeed baptized you WITH water, but He will baptize you WITH the Holy Spirit” [Mark 1:8]. The bible never says we are baptized WITH Jesus Christ but rather we are baptized INTO Christ. Why? Because Christ is a person and you cannot baptize one person with another person. But we can be baptized WITH the Holy Spirit in the same way we are baptized WITH water. So, when the bible says we are baptized with the Holy Spirit, it means we are washed and cleansed with the Spirit (life/character/influence/power) of God. When the bible says we are sealed WITH the Holy Spirit, that means the Holy Spirit is the seal/guarantee/assurance of our salvation. Another synonymous word for a “seal” is the word “guarantee” and the bible says the Holy Spirit is our guarantee:

       Eph 2:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise, 14 WHO[D] IS THE [E]GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory”.

       The Holy Spirit is the seal and guarantee of our inheritance.

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       • Thank you for your reply, Mathios. Seventh-day Adventists do believe that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person and one of the tri-une Godhead. I hesitate to use the word Trinity, because descriptions vary so much. I do know our understanding differs from Roman Catholic teaching. Unfortunately this is not the place to settle the trinity- no trinity debate. You can find our belief regarding the Holy Spirit summarized at What Seventh-day Adventists Believe About God the Holy Spirit. (While the word Trinity is used in the statement, note that it differs significantly from Roman Catholic teachings.)

         However, you write

         The preposition “with” is significant in the statement “….you were sealed WITH the Holy Spirit of promise” [Eph 1:13]. The meaning of the preposition “with” is the same as in the statement “I indeed baptized you WITH water, but He will baptize you WITH the Holy Spirit” [Mark 1:8]. The bible never says we are baptized WITH Jesus Christ but rather we are baptized INTO Christ. Why? Because Christ is a person and you cannot baptize one person with another person

         I find your argument somewhat lacking, since it implies that you can literally baptize a person "into" another. Such a statement should be demonstrable. If it is not, perhaps that is an indication that the Bible writers were using figures of speech - both in being baptized "into Christ" and being baptized "with the Holy Spirit."

         I agree with the rest of your comment:

         So, when the bible says we are baptized with the Holy Spirit, it means we are washed and cleansed with the Spirit (life/character/influence/power) of God. When the bible says we are sealed WITH the Holy Spirit, that means the Holy Spirit is the seal/guarantee/assurance of our salvation. Another synonymous word for a “seal” is the word “guarantee” and the bible says the Holy Spirit is our guarantee:

         Eph 2:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise, 14 WHO[D] IS THE [E]GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory”.

         The Holy Spirit is the seal and guarantee of our inheritance.

         It is not at odds with there being a visible sign of this sealing. I believe this sign includes all of the following from Rev. 14:

         • Rev. 14:1 Having their Father's name written in their foreheads (God's character of love)
         • Rev. 14:4 They follow Christ, the Lamb, wherever He goes. (can't go into detail here)
         • Rev. 14:23 They keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

         Keeping the commandments would make the redeemed loving like Christ, and it would include the 4th Commandment which Christ kept and which reminds us of God being our Creator (not evolution, etc.) and that Christ is our Redeemer and we rest in Him, rather than trusting in our own works.

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     • You wrote: “Thus, I conclude that the visible sign of the Holy Spirit's sealing work of sanctification will, in the end time, be the keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath, which the rest of the world does not honor”.

       Sir, where is your biblical proof that Sabbath keeping will be the visible sign and a seal of God in the last days? On the contrary, Jesus taught us that the visible sign that we belong Him will be love for one another:

       John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 BY THIS ALL WILL KNOW THAT YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES, IF YOU HAVE LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER.”

       Matt 5:16 “LET YOUR LIGHT SO SHINE before men, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN”.

       John 14:15 “If you love Me, [d]keep My commandments”.

       What is His commandments? Who is the best person to tell us what Jesus meant when He said “keep my commandments”? Moses or Jesus? Jesus is the only person qualified to tell us what He had in mind when He said “keep My commandments”. And in the next chapter, he spells it out to us as follows:

       John 15:12 “THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT, that you LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU”.

       The apostle John reiterates the same truth Jesus taught over and over throughout his epistles:

       1 John 3:23 “And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT: that we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST and LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AS HE GAVE [F]US COMMANDMENT”.

       2 John 1:5-6 “And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: THAT WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER. 6 THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK ACCORDING TO HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it”.

       No, the Sabbath day is not the Seal of God, not by any stretch of imagination. The seal belongs to God the Father [Rev 7:2] and the Father has set His seal on His Son Jesus Christ [John 6:27]. It wasn’t the seventh day that the Father set on Jesus Christ for God’s sake, it was His Holy Spirit which is the power/influence/character of God the Father.

       Sunday has never been and will never be the mark of the beast either. This misinterpretation stems from a misinterpretation of the identity of the beast to begin with. The SDA church interprets the sea beast of Rev chapter 13 as the papacy, the Roman Catholic church. However, the bible tells us that a beast represents political powers, not a church [Dan 7:17, 23]. The bible uses a woman to represent a church, a pure woman represents the true church [2 Cor 11:2], and a harlot represents a false church. And in Rev chapter 17, we see the same beast carrying a harlot woman. If the harlot woman is the false church, how can the beast which she rides be also the same false church? And the mark of the beast is the mark of the beast, it is not the mark of the harlot woman.

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7. ”It is time for You to act, O Lord, For they have regarded Your law as void.“
   ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭119‬:‭126‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
   Were the ceremonial or moral laws done away with at the cross? What exactly did Christ abolish on the cross? Let’s take a look at God’s Word to see.
   The ten commandments were written with God’s own hand.
   So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13 NKJV
   The ten commandments were placed inside the ark.
   And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you. Exodus 25:16 NKJV
   The commandments last forever.
   The works of His hands are verity and justice;
   All His precepts are sure. They stand fast forever and ever,
   And are done in truth and uprightness. Psalm 111:7-8 NKJV
   The ceremonial law was written in Moses’ handwriting and was placed in the side of the ark while we have seen the Ten Commandments were written by God and placed inside the ark.
   So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:24-26 NKJV
   The ceremonial laws written by Moses lasted only until the reformation.
   concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:10 NKJV
   It was ordinances that were handwritten by Moses that were done away with at the cross. The ceremonial laws like the feast Sabbath days like the Passover, which pointed towards the cross no longer served a purpose after the cross. The weekly Sabbath in the ten commandments was instituted before the law was ever given (Genesis 2:1-3) and continued throughout the New Testament by Jews and Greeks alike (Acts 18:4) and will continue in the new earth. (Isaiah 66:23)
   having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:14-17 NKJV
   Note: the requirements that were against them was the record of their rebellion we saw in Deuteronomy 31:24-26. The Ten commandments were not against them. They were there for their blessing and protection. See Psalm 19 and 119.
   The sacrificial system ceased at the cross. The ten commandments never ceased.
   Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
   And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
   Even until the consummation, which is determined,
   Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27 NKJV
   In the new testament commandment keeping continues.
   “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:9-10 NKJV
   He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4 NKJV
   The ten commandments convict us of sin after the cross just like before.
   but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:9-12 NKJV
   Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4NKJV
   Jesus did not die to do away with the law. He died so we could be obedient and live righteously.
   who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24
   For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12 NKJV
   Those who keep the commandments by God’s grace will inherit eternal life.
   Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 NKJV
   Summary and conclusion: The handwritten ordinances and sacrificial systems that pointed towards the cross were no longer needed after the cross. The Ten commandments were not handwritten by Moses but by God and do not point towards the cross. The ten commandments endure for all eternity.

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