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The End Time and Conspiracy Theories — 104 Comments

  1. Thank you so much for this article Marcos! When I was younger I loved studying JFK conspiracy theories. Later in life, I realized a lot of the "facts" these theories were based on were simply not true. It amazes me how people will follow lies in search of the 'truth." I came to realize to a conspiracy theorist there is no truth! Everything is a lie. That's pretty scary because if everything is a lie and a cover up and there is no truth, then where does that lead us in our spiritual journey and where does that put God? God is in control and not secret societies anyway. Thank you Marcos for leading us back to Jesus!

    Amen!(24)
  2. So Marcos makes a few good points. He said his purpose was not to condemn the men he mentioned, but he surely discredited them and belittled them to my mind. And while I agree that we have to avoid going crazy, we cannot forget that the Bible warns us that our worst spiritual enemies will be those of our own faith. As Paul said "grievous wolves" would come in after his departure not sparing the flock. He also said that heresies would come in among us so that those who are established (I suppose in the faith) may be made manifest.

    Then I have a few questions - one is - how come we no longer preach the Three Angels Messages in our churches today?

    Amen!(45)
    • Albert, we have a member in our church who asks the same question, "Why do we no longer preach the Three Angels' messages?" Yet I hear it preached all the time - in more fullness than it ever was in the beginning.

      Perhaps you see the "message" differently than I do. Please recall that the message is the "everlasting gospel" in the context of the end time. (Rev 14:6) The messages about the judgment and Babylon are completely meaningless without the context of the gospel. So the gospel needs to be preached in the context of the judgment time and the errors of Babylon - i.e. focus primarily on the Good News, not on Babylon.

      And Marcos did not "discredit" any person. He wrote about certain theories and how to relate to them. I believe that men who promote such theories condemn themselves.

      When we focus on sharing the Good News of Christ and His soon coming, we will not have time to delve into conspiracy theories. When we focus on nurturing our relationship with Jesus so that His character may be revealed in us, we will not have time for conspiracy theories.

      So let us agree to focus on Christ.

      Amen!(40)
      • Sis Anderson, I too share your concern about this question.
        Many people say from time to time that the Three Angels Message is endangered--but I'm never clear about what they mean by this.

        Amen!(5)
        • Just my 2 cents, when we see other brothers concerned about the 3 angels message they are trying to express the principle that those messages are designed to prepare a people to stand for christ and reveal christ to the world. in word and deed they are more than a message they are testing truths designed to help us separate from the world( sin) and reveal christ. they are to cause an expierience of self abandonment through the gospel that christ may be formed within but the feel as if the main preaching is to new people and that older members are not being fed that the gospel that is emphasized is light and fluffy but doesn't cause us to reflect on our condition in light of God,s grace and mercy.

          Amen!(1)
    • What really is the three Angels Message?
      Does it differ to that which was given to the disciples?

      Is it fear, judgement or Love?

      Amen!(1)
      • To Lindsley,

        You asked a question that i have heard before and have asked before myself... What is the three angels message? Well after reading through the verses of Revelation 14 here is what i can say about the purpose of the message.
        1. It is Gods last message of mercy to a fallen world.
        2. The reception and rejection of these messages will determine ones destiny.
        3. It is the message that will ripen the harvest (on both sides).

        Ok, Now lets look at the message.

        First angels Message
        1. Everlasting - It covers everything that is everlasting, eg. (God, Jesus, The Law (Fear God), Plan of Redemption and True Worship and Health Message, True Education)
        2. Judgment- Investigative Judgment (Prophecy) The Righteous dead (1844) and soon the living (before sunday law it must begin)

        Second Angels Message
        1. Babylon is fallen- Image of the beast set up (Sunday Law Passed)
        Those who have rejected the first message receiving the mark of the beast.

        Third Angels Message
        Those who have received the mark of the beast will now received the out pouring of the wrath of God (Seven Last plagues)

        I know that there is more to it but those are a few things i have seen and I thank God for allowing someone like me to even understand a little of Gods Everlasting Gospel.

        It is not a message of Fear but one of Mercy to those that received them in their order and walk in the light of Gods truth.

        God Bless

        Amen!(1)
    • Albert, funny I am not a conspiracy theorist but my sermon today in the Brooksville SDA church is on the three angels message in Revelation 14:6-12. I will not be preaching about any conspiracy theories though. I will be preaching about the everlasting gospel of the cross setting us free from Babylon's legalism, and about how the Sabbath is a sign of grace. Those who take the mark of the beast will be trusting their works and ability to do business (buy and sell) to save them instead of resting their faith in Jesus on the Sabbath and trusting Him to save them. The three angels message is a Christ centered and cross centered message.

      I am puzzled when I hear conspiracy theorists saying we don't preach the three angels message anymore. As I listen to them I get the idea that instead of lifting up Jesus as the Savior of the world we should just be telling people they are going to hell if they don't keep the Sabbath. Like Marcos says, these conspiracy theorists love to talk conspiracy theories instead of Jesus. In about three hours (Lord willing) I will be preaching the three angels message and Jesus.

      Amen!(24)
      • Hi William, thanks for your note. You are not a conspiracy theorist at all if you preach the Three Angels Messages. You are preaching the Gospel. And neither are the people who preach it today preaching conspiracy theories. Those who advocate for it should not be considered conspiracy theorists either. They are just labeled as such by some. JESUS was labeled a fanatic because He believed and lived the Scriptures.

        Obviously, though, these Messages are for a specific period in time as is evidenced by the content they present. We are told my the Spirit of Prophecy - for those who still accept the Spirit of Prophecy - that the Three Angels Messages is "the Gospel in verity".

        In the Gospels we read nothing as alarming as are the Three Angels Messages. I therefore conclude that the context in which they are presented, or in which they are to be presented, is somewhat different from the present one being advocated. I also here conclude that I may be wrong and that I am willing to be persuaded if someone can show me different.

        Amen!(2)
    • "How come we no longer preach the Three Angels' Messages...?" Do we not preach those messages? I've heard them preached in the churches I've been attending, not always labeled "Three Angels' Messages" but the same content none the less.

      Amen!(10)
  3. alliance, confederacy, scheme,... are some of the words other translations use in place of conspiracy in Isa 8:11-13.

    We typically think of "conspiracy" as an alliance or confederacy or scheme of other people of whose identity we are not sure, intent on doing us harm.

    Pastor Torres's article is doing a good job at pointing us toward developing a greater trust in Jesus instead of developing fear of harm from mysterious alliances. In Isaiah 8:11-13, king Ahaz had a valid reason to fear the alliance between Izrael and Syria. It was a real alliance that conspired to destroy Judah. It was not a theory. The conspiration was a fact.

    It was the lack of trust in YHWH on the part of Ahaz for which Isaiah came to Ahaz so that Ahaz's faith would rely on YHWH and NOT Assyrians.

    Isa 8:11-13 as a very weak platform to formulate an argument against "Conspiracy theorists".
    Listening to Dr. Veith lectures on the secret societies, I was always left with the impression that at the end of each hour's lecture he did a good job of steering the listeners to trusting Jesus and to not fear the mysterious alliances.

    I read the warnings from many of our writers on the coming alliance of church and state and imposing Sunday as the day of worship. They use that as the reason for leaving the cities and moving to the country to avoid the imposition. To me, those writings sound like a conspiracy theory also. So, I wind up rather confused. Do I build up the trust in the Lord to take care of me while living in the city or do I build up the trust in the Lord to take care of me while living in the country? Perhaps, according to the author of the article, the only mistake that the young family did was filling up the U-Hall with canned food. Should they have moved without food to that cottage to WV?

    Amen!(20)
    • Neven, I write as coming from the background of having consistently chosen to live "in the country," except for brief periods of time.

      Living "in the country" was best for our family when our children were growing up. But that didn't mean we had to "escape" to some nearly secret location where we stashed enough food to live through the time of trouble.

      What I find disturbing about much of the teaching surrounding the "flee the cities" exhortations is the emphasis on self-preservation rather than a concern for the spiritual welfare of the inhabitants of the cities. The whole focus is on survival of the self and family. Is this what Jesus modeled? (By contrast, Ellen White wrote about living outside the cities but near enough to minister to their inhabitants.)

      Right now we are retired and still living in the country - so far removed from population centers that sharing the gospel face-to-face is a challenge. We are currently praying for God's guidance to move to an area where we will be closer to our neighbors and have more opportunity for personal ministry, among other things.

      We each need to ask the Lord for direction in our lives. This may not be the time for everyone to "flee the cities." There may be a need for folks in the cities to witness to their neighbors - if they will do that. We have been given a specific sign to literally "flee the cities" - the passing of a national Sunday law in the United States. This has not yet occurred. So any preaching that pre-supposes that the time to "flee the cities" is now, irrespective of other factors, is in error, in my opinion.

      As for that young couple mentioned in the post - they had apparently mistaken the signs of the times by "fleeing the city" to such a remote area that chances of their witnessing to their (non-existent) neighbors was insignificant. How much more service to the Lord could they have rendered by living in a community where they could share their faith with others young families?

      The way conspiracy theorists operate is to mix a lot of truth with enough error to come to wrong conclusions. This is not necessarily on purpose, but that's what it is.

      That being said, none of us have a perfect witness, and God can use us in our imperfections. This post is not about the people who major in conspiracy theories. I have no doubt that God has used their ministry to impact others in positive ways. After all, if God can speak through a donkey, he can certainly speak through imperfect human beings who are sincere but wrong on some points. Yet I agree with Marcos that our witness would be better if we and they let go of our mistaken notions and focused on the truth of the Bible rather than assorted conspiracy theories based on questionable suppositions. I believe that the latter hurts our witness to thinking people.

      The aim of Marcos's post seems to be to have us pay less attention to conspiracy theories and more attention to developing our relationship with God.

      Amen!(24)
      • Hi Inge...

        Thank you for such a beautiful reply.
        Due to a combination of circumstances and decisions made by my parents to serve as light house keepers, I was raised on small islands in the Adriatic see. Practically speaking, we were living in the country, separated by water instead of three lined roads from the population centers.

        And I agree with Marcos's argument 100% that we as listeners to conspiracy theories should react to them in a way that increases my trust in the Lord and not become paralyzed by what I hear. Whan I listen to [name redacted] revealing the hidden agendas of various organizations and societies, my trust in the Lord is encouraged knowing He will eventually wipe out every evil thing any way.
        I am under the impression that he was led by the Lord to cover the conspiracy theory topics because there were some people whose hearts were turned to the Lord because of his presentations. While other's turned to fear instead of trust in the Lord. It is as Jesus said, it depends on the hearer's heart condition... the stony ground, the way side ground, the thorny ground or the normal soil ground.

        Currently, I live in a small city and feel that I am not doing by best to witness to my neighbours. I feel like I am socially isolated from them being that I am of a rather reserved personality type. Maybe growing up in that light house environment contributed to that.

        Amen!(15)
        • I just want to say to you, Neven........ You made a valid point when you mentioned quote, " It is as Jesus said. It depends on a listeners' hearts condition....... the stony ground, the way side ground, the thorny ground and or the good soil ". I do believe [name redactedd]'s teachings can never approach everybody. His teachings are coming from different angle but if you notice they are all pointing to the same direction as other Pastors' sermons or lectures. They all come down to one thing and that........ is this Mystery of Babylon (the conspiracy theories) is at work and in progress. Whenever I watch [name redactedd]'s lecture, it raises my awareness of how important it is to not to waste time in making everything right with God. Those people involved in Illuminati, Freemasons, Knights Templar, Bilderberg etc. are the fulfillment of the Bible Prophecy. And they are not wasting their time at all to meet their goal. These people who are under the deception of Satan are busy bodies doing about what they thought is for good cause. If those Satan's human agents are not idle in weakening our connections with Jesus through different shapes and forms to distract us then what shall we do? Therefore wake up from slumber and arise to do what is necessary to be on God's side. Isn't that is the same as when we hear our Pastors teachings on pulpits. ARE WE READY FOR JESUS COMING ? GET READY.

          Amen!(17)
  4. What connection does "groups like Battlefield Hollywood" have to do with conspiracy theories? Little Light Studies, a self-supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, produced a DVD series of talks discussing the spiritual dangers of secular media.

    Is it a "conspiracy theory" to state that those of the world teach values of the world? The essence of the message proclaimed by this ministry is that we, who have been called out of the world, should not be unequally yoked to those who would lead us away from God. Their message is more common sense than "conspiracy theory" to me...

    Amen!(43)
    • Ken, thank you for your comment. I didn't realize what Marcos was referring to until you posted your comment. Then I remembered watching some of these videos several years ago.

      While I sympathize with the aim of the makers of these videos, I have to agree with Marcos's assessment. Here's why:

      The videos are sensational, as conspiracy clips tend to be. They focus on hidden meanings in symbols, not recognizing that symbols have the meanings we assign to them. (Symbols have no inherent meaning of their own.) So this is what happens as a result of viewing a video focusing on supposed meanings of some relatively common symbols: Every time a person sees such symbols after seeing the video, that person will think of the evil meaning the movies claimed for it. Without seeing the movie, the person would not be burdened with such evil meanings. This is true not just of these videos but of most conspiracy videos and of many of the Walter Veith lectures on various conspiracies.

      [Later edit: Please note that, according to BJ's comment on October 2, that "Little Light Studios producers have walked away from symbols association years ago." If that is so, the foregoing critique is no longer applicable.]

      Some of the "facts" are not facts. The subliminal messages idea is bogus. (The most-often cited example of increasing sales of popcorn in a theater never happened. It was pure fiction. Later studies have only yielded ambiguous results.)

      The videos specialize in hyperbole and focus on demonic activity and give the devil way too much credit. That was my initial reaction.

      I think this is a good analysis of some older lectures, I believe it applies to the videos as well, and it also makes the connection to conspiracy theories: "Battlefield Hollywood."

      It seems like the producers have now given more footage to the brain connection. That is very good, provided they got their facts straight. (My confidence factor in their sorting out fact from fiction is not very high, due to what I have seen.) The irony is that these good folks who have "left Hollywood" are using some of the most effective and bad techniques of Hollywood to fight what I would be tempted to call a movie addiction.

      I personally believe there are very few "good" movies - probably not more than one a year. I have seen movies that help me understand people in different cultures, different times in history, different walks of life, with different disabilities, that sort of thing. These are the kinds of movies that I would call "good movies," but they are few in number, if one chooses to by-pass the violence and sex-saturated movies I would expect a Christian to by-pass.

      So if these folks can help people kick their movie habit, that is a good thing. However, I believe we don't need to use the tools of the devil to do the work of the Lord. In other words, I believe it is possible to achieve the same ends without using conspiracy theory scare tactics and sensationalism. And that would be much better - which is Marcos's point.

      Amen!(13)
      • David Read makes this point in his article:
        "The New Gnosticism, or the Conspiracy Mongers"

        He argues that there is sufficient information in Biblical principles to steer people away from the movies and music of the world without having to introduce conspiracy theories to do so.

        I'll leave the link here:

        http://advindicate.com/articles/2516

        I think, again, that this is a serious problem.

        Amen!(4)
        • Thanks, Andrew, for the link to that excellent article. David introduces an angle that I hadn't thought of before: An emphasis on "knowing" all the secret conspiracies really is an emphasis that implies salvation is related to knowledge - i.e. a new kind of gnosticism. I wouldn't have thought of putting it that way, but it's true.

          Maurice Ashton pointed out something similar in his comment, although he didn't use the label "gnosticism."

          The teaching of Christ, by contrast, is that to know God is eternal life (John 17:3) - recognizing that the biblical "knowing" between men and women produces children. That is, biblically, "to know" refers to an intimate relationship. And we don't get to know God by delving into conspiracies.

          Amen!(5)
        • But some people need more than just principles. When they are able to see what's really going on (the conspiracy), they then reach the point of making a change. Like when some people realize what really goes inside a hot dog, they quit eating it. It's not enough to tell them it's bad for them. I know a few people who have become Adventist because of [name redacted]'s conspiracy sermons and then they make the connection to the Adventist version of end-time prophecy. Same with Little Light Studios.

          Seventh-day Adventism is, after all, based on a pretty big conspiracy theory about how Papal Rome changed the Sabbath, took over Christianity and teachings, and how papal Rome will rise again before the end comes. Kind of hypocritical of us to criticize those that find evidence in history and current events to bolster that conspiracy and it's eventual fulfillment.

          I agree one can definitely go overboard and that conspiracies can be toxic but the search for truth will sometimes bring you into the land of conspiracy theories. But as the author points out, the search for real truth, the "risen Savior", should keep us out of that toxic realm.

          Amen!(19)
        • Danny, if we are not motivated to "eat and drink...to the glory of God", then it's true, some have to be motivated by the 'facts' of what they are actually eating. But isn't this not of faith? Many vegans living in dishonor of God

          The SDA church is actually based upon the Bible and the Gospel it contains, and believes the core message is the everlasting Gospel, which is "the power of God unto salvation" due to our transgression of God's law because of our sinful nature. The rest is to know the wiles of the enemy of souls so we can help others escape his grasp.

          If we are not drawn to Jesus and His purity, nothing else can save us, and though we might be led to accept certain "truths", it will be in the weakness of flesh. The Gospel is first and foremost and Jesus must be lifted up above all else if sinners are to be saved.

          I have witnessed those who were convinced of the corruption of the apostate church and became sabbath "keepers". They didn't last long and were back where they came from before hearing the convincing arguments that can often change people's minds without transforming their lives.

          Many ways to convince others of one thing or another, but only one Way to Life. Motivations that come from a sensational exposure of error cannot save one soul, unless it leads them to seek the Savior.

          Amen!(9)
        • If we are not drawn to Jesus and His purity, nothing else can save us, and though we might be led to accept certain "truths", it will be in the weakness of flesh. The Gospel is first and foremost and Jesus must be lifted up above all else if sinners are to be saved.

          I have witnessed those who were convinced of the corruption of the apostate church and became sabbath "keepers". They didn't last long and were back where they came from before hearing the convincing arguments that can often change people's minds without transforming their lives.
          ------------------------------------

          I agree Bro Whiteman and I think the Bible bears this out.
          The children of Israel were always "repenting" when things turned bad for them--but it never seemed to last.
          I too have seen people who believe in conspiracy theories spiral out of the church in a dramatic way. This is particularly dangerous for certain kinds of people who are not emotionally stable but temperament.

          Furthermore there are many more non-SDAs who believe these things than SDAs; therefore believing in conspiracies doesn't even necessitate Adventism.

          I really, really, really like the first line of your post:

          "If we are not drawn to Jesus and His purity, nothing else can save us."

          Amen!(1)
    • All this time consumed by conspiracy theories - or whatever you want to call this obsession with everything that is wrong - is just not where it is at. I think some SDA's have read extended scenarios with some pretty outlandish stuff into the Great Ccontroversy.

      Have we tarried so long that we have lost the vision of the gospel? Have we become so Laodecian and our fire for Jesus settled into an ash heap of looking for the latest breaking news of yet another panacea to get our church's spiritual dead batteries charged up? Have we become so cynical that we have become a religious type of the John Birch Society? Are we propped atop a watchman's tower with binoculars scanning the horizon for latest Jesuit plot? This is NOT the sign of Jesus coming, but a sign of the delay.

      Instead of laboring in the Lord's vineyard we are in the bushes looking for spooks. Independent outfits like [name redacted] are part of the problem, not the solution. They generate more heat than light.

      My cousin works in the wine industry. He tells me that the time to pick the grapes is determined by the sugar content of the grapes, and not by the severity of an approaching storm. I think too many people are so zoomed in by the storm that they become sour grapes.

      Revelation 14 has a total of 6 angels. Read on past verse 12 and you will find 3 more angels. But first there is Jesus pictured on a cloud with a crown on his head and a sickle in his hand. He has come to harvest the world. The ripening harvest is the greatest sign of the coming of Jesus.

      So spit out the sour grapes of the latest take on what's wrong with everything. Uplift the Savior and let Him be Lord of your life.

      Amen!(5)
  5. A good post in many ways. I agree with the author that we should not focus and concentrate on minor, nonrelevant issues (eg. the shape of the inauguration stage). On the other side controversial issues are not necessarily to be avoided. If a person has sure and valid information in an area, such as secret societies (as with [name redacted) I beleive it is good that these matters be shared to the public to the extent that it is relevant to the great controversy theme. I can not do that, as I do not have the necessary knowledge in this area. However, many masons found the faith because of the ministry of Veith. As long as people have valid information/knowledge about so called "conspiracy theories", which are relevant to the great controversy between God and Satan I beleive it is appropriate to share the information. However, as the author mentions, if you exerience that it leads you away from a deep relationship with Christ then it is better not to go there.

    Amen!(26)
    • Allan, it isn't hard to find all those conspiracies on the internet. I'm sure you can find them too. But not everyone has the gift of speaking that [name redacted] has. Oh, how I would like to see him use that gift to consistently lift up Christ!

      We are counseled:

      Resolve never, never to repeat error, but always to teach the truth. Fill hearts and minds with the solemn, sacred truth for this time.{Ev 623.4}
      Dwell on present truth, on Christ's second coming. The Lord is coming very soon. We have only a little while in which to present the truth for this time--the truth that is to convert souls. This truth is to be presented in the utmost simplicity, even as Christ presented it, so that the people can understand what is truth. Truth will dispel the clouds of error. {Ev 624.1}
      Give the people present truth. Talk the truth. Fill their minds with truth. Build up the strongholds of truth. And do not bring Satan's theories to minds that should not hear in regard to them. What the people need is not a representation of the seductive arts of Satan, but a presentation of the truth as it is in Jesus. Remember that the devil can be served by a repetition of his lies. The less we handle these objectionable subjects, the purer, cleaner, and less tainted will be our minds and our principles. . . . {Ev 624.2}
      And I have been shown that we are not to enter into controversy over these spiritualistic theories, because such controversy will only confuse minds. These things are not to be brought into our meetings. We are not to labor to refute them. If our ministers and teachers give themselves to the study of these erroneous theories, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It is not the work of the gospel minister to voice Satan's theories. . .Ellen White, Evangelism, p. 623 ff.

      Also:

      We May Have Less to Say—There is need of a much closer study of the Word of God; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before in the history of our work. We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the Papacy, but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has so shaped matters, both in the giving of the prophecy, and in the events portrayed, as to teach that the human agent is to be kept out of sight, hid in Christ, and the Lord God of heaven and His law are to be exalted.—Ellen White, Evangelism, p. 577}

      Amen!(2)
  6. THE MAN OF SIN...seems that the Holy Bible is filled with past/future "conspiracy theories".

    2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

    2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
    King James Version (KJV)

    Amen!(14)
    • Chris, you have made a good point that there is a grand conspiracy against the Kingdom of God led by Satan himself.

      The trouble with the kind of conspiracy theories Marcos writes about is that they lessen our credibility regarding the real conspiracy. Informed folks know that the kind of conspiracy theories some of these folks preach have been around for 50+ years, with variations on the same theme. They all have some truth in them, but mixed with so much speculation and outright falsehood that thinking people will reject them and anything associated with them - such as valid biblical prophecy.

      As far as I can determine, most of the anti-Catholic and anti-Christmas, anti-Easter, etc. theories have their origin in a book, The Two Babylons: Or, the Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod. It is a mishmash of fact, speculation and outright fiction that was passed off as history for decades and even distributed with Bible Study aids and then Bible study software.

      Just one example: The foundation of his grand conspiracy theory rests on the "fact" of a marriage between Nimrod and Semiramis. He did not let the genuine historical fact that they lived many centuries apart get in the way of a good conspiracy that would serve his purpose of demonizing the Catholic church. We do ourselves no good by buying into such sensationalism, and the people Marcos named have unfortunately bought into it wholesale.

      Amen!(8)
      • It's the variations that tip you off to something not being quite right.
        Thank you for the book reference. I've been searching for years for original sources for this Nimrod/Semiramis story and have been unable to find any.
        Many times I have heard this from the pulpit and have been trying to verify it for myself.

        Amen!(1)
    • Chris, there is a difference between a conspiracy theory and God revealing facts, even if they haven't occurred just yet. God is simply warning and pointing to His Son as our only true hope of escaping the trap Satan has laid for us.

      As we read it today, 2 Thessalonians is a fulfilled prophecy. This does not constitute a conspiracy theory, and wasn't in Paul's day either. God does not give us theories, only facts.

      Amen!(5)
  7. Placing Walter Veith and Pat Robertson even remotely in the same sentence is ludicrous. That's comparing the 700 club with Amazing Facts - even more ludicrous. [Personal judgment redacted.]

    Walter has done so much more than "conspiracy theories" in his thoroughly research seminars, on such a wide range of topics, that your attempt to discredit him and place him along Pat Robertson is truly unfair. Similarly, I personally know of MANY MANY people who are Adventists today and looking joyfully towards the coming of our Lord, as a direct result of Walter Veith seminars! I do not however, personally know of ONE person who is an Adventist today by listening to Walter's critics...

    Amen!(70)
    • I feel rather belittled by Eugene's comment. Being a Walter Veith "critic" ... I resent being placed in the category of not bringing ONE person to become an Adventist. I could give you my resume as far as the Adventist work. But really is that necessary? I just hope that from this day forward .... since you now know of me - that you will no longer make such a statement.

      Amen!(6)
    • The comment, "I do not however, personally know of ONE person who is an Adventist today by listening to Walter's critics..." assumes that critics of conspiracy teachings do not preach the gospel or evangelize.

      The conferences and churches that do not allow conspiracy promoters in their pulpits do evangelism by preaching Christ and using the prophecies in the Bible, as supported by well-known facts of history (not questionable "secret" knowledge0. That provides the information and motivation that the Holy Spirit can use for conversion of souls. Conspiracy theories only detract.

      It seems to me that if you know of no conversions through such biblical preaching, your circle of acquaintances must be quite narrow.

      Amen!(1)
  8. It's not people like Walter Veith or Little Light Ministries ( Battlefield Hollywood etc) that promote conspiracy theories. They speak the truth about the reality of the devil's efforts to deceive, and point to Christ as the solution.

    Yes, there are people who are into conspiracy theories on the church, or those who dwell on the problem more than on the solution, but the author, Pastor Marcos Torres, needs to be careful and not dismiss everything out of hand in an effort to be "balanced".

    Amen!(26)
    • You say that Walter Veith does not promote conspiracy theories. Yet he has promoted all of the following at one time or another:

      1. Saddam Hussein has been dead since 1999 and that the man by that name who was hung for crimes against humanity was a body double. (That's in a video with over 250,000 views on Youtube)
      2. Modern Bible translatioins are mis-translations and the result of a plot to deny the supreme deity of Christ, among other things
      3. President George Bush and the CIA are responsible for planning and executing the destruction of the World Trade Centre towers in New York City. (The CIA planted explosives in the buildings.
      4. All the major world leaders are under the direct control of secret societies, particularly the Free Masons and the Jesuit order of the Catholic Church. This is evident by the secret handshakes seen everywhere.
      5. The Christian Alpha Course is evil, since alpha brain waves are being used in a hypnotic way to control other human beings.
      6. The Jesuits created and control the Mormons.
      7. The Catholic church created Islam.
      8. The Catholic Religion and Islam are actually the same, as evidenced by secret symbols on their buildings. They are both a form of Baal worship.
      9. The Islaamic crescent moon symbol comes from Baal worship.
      10. The video-game “Pac-Man” character represents the “all-seeing eye of Lucifer
      11. Nelson Mandela and Joseph Stalin are spiritual brothers in the same “club” controlled by Rome.
      12. The Illuminati control the world governments towards the goal of a one-world government.
      13. Freemasons under the command of Rome may well have journeyed to the moon in the 1960s in search of the lost technology of the ante-deluvians
      14. The Jesuits control pretty much every earthly organization, including the Freemasons.
      15. The Russian Federation chose the two-headed eagle for their coat of arms because it is a Masonic symbol.
      16. The assassination of John Kennedy was a conspiracy.
      17. The Oklahoma bombing was a conspiracy.

      It seems to me that the problem is that many people do not recognize conspiracy theories but innocently accept them as demonstrated facts. I think the current Wikipedia definition is pretty good:

      A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.

      The examples I gave above should further help in understanding what constitutes a conspiracy theory.

      Many of the above are popular conspiracy theories easily found on the internet. Some are demonstrably false. Others have some truth in them. [I have heard him lecture on the major points above, but have not personally heard all. I'm going on the testimony of others for some of those points.] But the point of Pastor Torres's post was not whether conspiracy theories are true or false. It was about conspiracy theories, irrespective of their being true or false or partly true.

      Please review his points indicated in bold in the blog post above these comments.

      Amen!(4)
      • Is it a conspiracy theory if they have facts to back up the theory? What is the SDA churches' view on [name redacted]? Have you heard of him? I give at least some credit to the theories about the Jesuits, Freemasons and the Illuminati because I don't underestimate the Prince of this World, Satan, and his influence on those who will stop at nothing to gain fame, fortune and power. Even so much as sacrificing their souls to the devil.

        Amen!(2)
        • Yes, Kevin, I believe it is still a "conspiracy theory" if you have facts or "facts"' to back it up. See the Wikipedia definition of a conspiracy theory. (For the record, many of the "facts" proposed in favor of conspiracy theories are not reliable, sometimes outright bogus and often as personal as the reading of shapes in the clouds.)

          God did not give us the job of checking out every conspiracy theory to determine if it is a genuine conspiracy or not. He gave us the job of spreading the gospel of His Kingdom to all the world. Studying of conspiracies - true or not - is the devil's diversion to keep us from doing the job God gave us to do.

          As for [name redacted] - I hadn't heard of him until you mentioned his name, because I am far too busy to spend time researching into conspiracies. The first results that come up for him on Google let me know right away that he is a conspiracy promoter and not very favorable to mainline Adventism, holding that the church has been infiltrated by Jesuits. It also seems that he is a former SDA minister who now promotes survivalism (stockpiling food and weapons).

          One of our church founders had something relevant to say many years ago, and this is still true:

          We have found in our experience that if Satan cannot keep souls bound in the ice of indifference, he will try to push them into the fire of fanaticism. When the Spirit of the Lord comes among His people, the enemy seizes his opportunity to work also upon different minds and lead them to mingle their own peculiar traits of character with the work of God. Thus there is always danger that they may allow their own spirit to mingle with the work and that unwise moves may be made. Many carry on a work of their own devising that is not prompted by God.--Lt 34, 1889. (1 Mind Character and Personality, p. 38 [Similar to 5 Testimonies to the Church, p. 644.])

          There is a whole culture of conspiracy alive and well in the world. And it is not one permeated by the Spirit of God. When Adventist preachers dabble in this culture, God is not honored. It is just as important in our time to leave conspiracies alone as it was in Ellen White's time.

          Amen!(3)
        • It doesn't seem very important to me what terminology is used for dwelling on satan's work, or the intense focus on unraveling his deceptions and devices (or as Ellen White has said "the seductive arts of Satan"). I agree with Inge--God gave Ellen White very clear counsel on this subject. I listed her quotes in two separate comments on this thread. Before reading these EGW quotes, I had purchased multiple sets of DVDs by [name redacted] covering material referred to in Pastor Torres’ article. While I knew they should not replace my devotional time, I felt they were fascinating and helped me to better realize the nearness of Christ's return, and that this justified my attention to them. After stumbling across these Ellen White statements, it became impossible for me to believe I should continue watching them.

          Amen!(3)
      • Thank you for your reply, Inge. I tend to agree with you now. I know that Jesus has to be the center of our focus. Only a personal relationship with Him will get us through the trying times ahead, if we are alive to face them. I thought there was some good in "knowing" how tribulation is rising and how it's going to come about. Now I see that it is a bit distracting from Christ. Even if we have the knowledge about how things will happen, we won't be prepared unless we are fully surrendered to our Savior. Thanks again.

        Amen!(6)
  9. I think this is one of Seventh-day Adventism's worst problems; because is strikes at the very heart of our legacy of prophecy.
    Many SDAs see a seamless integration between EGW, Revelation and the latest conspiracy theories of the day.
    What is even more alarming is that many of these conspiracy theories have originated with people who do not share our historicist view of prophecy.
    Many of these theories are peddled by people who have a dispensationalist view of the Bible and a futurist prophetic outlook (Fundamentalist Baptists and other like-minded American movements).

    Amen!(9)
  10. I agree and disagree with Mr. Torres. Although I delve in to some lectures by [name redacted], they never give me sense of overwhelming fear of what has been learned through his lectures. It actually helping me face the reality everyday that the Bible Prophecy is so real and backed up by his presentations with the support of some materials which he is fortunate enough to have access on them to share his audience. So far everything I have learned from [name redacted] had helped me to get with Jesus so I can be ready for His soon coming. In my opinion, his lectures which are labeled as conspiracy theories which by the way I never perceived they are because he has supporting documents and materials to go with his lectures, are just the extensions of the Bible Prophecy. The writer could be right at some extent on some people. There maybe some people do get wrapped up too much and neglect what is real important in keeping a relationship with The Lord Jesus. Finding a balance is necessary so that we not only focus on [name redacted]'s lectures but also study and meditate on God's Word.

    Amen!(41)
    • It is each one responsibility, that after learning of a matter to verify and choose, With every truth we need to ask God for strength to handle the truth in the correct manner and correct attitude. If one is has a fearful mind, ask of God to help to grasp the truth in a correct attitude, he will do so and you will hop in joy as you wait for his soon coming. It will be stupid to refuse the truth because your afraid. Rather swallow the truth holding the hand of God.

      Amen!(4)
  11. I can relate somewhat, and some good points are made.. however, the article is unbalanced and essentially accuses any persons or any ministry who discloses something that might be considered a "conspiracy theory" wrong in doing so, and spreading harmful information which leads people away from Christ. What exactly is a conspiracy theory anyways? There is a more balanced approach which acknowledges that there is plenty of knowledge available to God's people which is outside the status quo and mainstream media, but we need to be careful about whatever "theories" we entertain and how we relate to them. Think about it, the light SDA's have been given on health would make us look like conspiracy theorists to many, and what about the simple prophecies of Revelation and Daniel? And actually, if we admit that the U.S. is on the road to total tyranny (making an image to the beast), then we would be irresponsible and ignorant to completely ignore or refute the "conspiracy theories" which support that fact. There is a careful balance and unfortunately the vast majority are on one side or the other, instead of in the middle- which is a bad witness on both sides.

    Amen!(21)
    • James, the warning is against a focus on "conspiracies" whether real or imagined.

      What Adventists have taught regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation is easily verified from credible historical and contemporary sources without the need to consulting the alternate culture of conspiracy theorists.

      The problem with promoting unverifiable conspiracies in conjunction with seminars focused on biblical prophecy is that this discredits our teaching regarding these prophecies.

      Accepting the conclusions of Marcos's blog entry will not prevent us from teaching the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

      Amen!(0)
  12. I too find [name redacted] to be spiritually uplifting! He has a tremendous knowledge that is able to expose the sophistries of Satan. One must remember that truth is knowledge and we certainly need knowledge in order to see where and how Bible prophecy is unfolding in our time.
    The criticism of [name redacted] by Marcos is not warranted. Anyone who will take the time to view and listen to ALL his seminars and presentations will find him to be a humble person responding to God's leading and giving a message that is desperately needed by Christians and non-Christians alike in today's world!
    We need more men or women like [name redacted] to present facts and proofs that support the Christian faith and lead us to Jesus, our only way to the Father for forgiveness and the reward of eternal life.

    Amen!(33)
  13. Interesting comments, mostly about defending people and subjects other than the main thrust of Marcos' comments. Which is about conspiracy's and what they can do to our thinking in terms of reality. Should we be alert to possible threating situations, that are real, and not figments of our imagination? Yes I would say so, but to magnify the possibilty of immanent danger, ends up many times in over kill. The tendancy to embelish and exaggerate becomes more likely as fear grows stronger. We do live in a society of rampant lawlessness and extremism that makes trust very unpopular. There is only One that is completely trust worthy. Paul said in 2Cor 1:9,10, their trust in God was their solace in the face of death. When we fear, we are lacking in love, 1John 4:18. Satan has to be happy when we do not trust God to care for our needs.

    Amen!(17)
  14. Even though Marcos mentioned Dr Veith only in passing, we have received so many comments defending Dr Veith and in some cases attacking Marcos to the point that the comments were not publishable, that I feel it may be helpful to provide more background regarding Walter Veith.

    My background re Walter Veith:

    I probably heard the first series Dr Veith every presented as a potential evangelist. This was in Surrey, British Columbia, but I don't remember the year. (The current headquarters of his ministry is there.) I was charmed by his accent and his manner. I thought that his new approach to evangelism - beginning with science lectures and then leading to biblical subjects was just what this church needed. I was happy to see that he started an evangelistic ministry. And so I enthusiastically recommended his ministry for years.

    Years later, in an online discussion forum, someone brought up Dr Veith, charging him with promoting conspiracy theories. Having only heard him in person at the beginning of his independent ministry career, I defended him vigorously. (I didn't realize that he had changed trajectory in the meantime.)

    About the Amazing Discoveries ministry:

    Amazing Discoveries, the ministry promoting Dr Veith, is located in my home conference of British Columbia. One of his speakers is a member of my home church. Our niece works in his office. BUT, our conference has advised all our churches not to give Dr Veith a pulpit because of his promotion of conspiracy theories. (By definition, conspiracy theories depend on their authentication on "facts" that are not well-known and not generally accepted as fact.)[paragraph edited Oct 4, 2014]

    The videos I'm particularly referring to are part of the Total Onslaught series, though the same approach is likely evident in other lectures. I admit I didn't watch the whole series. But in what I did see, I was dismayed by what passed for "research" and the speculation that went into his interpretation of occult or demonic symbols. He seemed totally unaware that symbols do not have inherent meaning. The same symbol, for instance can mean one thing to an ancient civilization and have a totally opposite meaning for the German Nazis. Using Dr Veith's approach that the supposedly most ancient meaning of a symbol (or a related representation of it) is the "real" meaning, the swastika means "to make good," and thus it became a symbol of good fortune. Now is that what the swastika means to you? Or to your neighbor? (I'm a retired English teacher with a special interest in linguistics, among other things.) Now, if the meaning of the swastika can change so drastically over the course of history, is it not likely that the meaning of other symbols also changes?

    In spite of the demonstrable fact that both words and symbols change in meaning over time, Veith specializes in ferreting out ancient meanings and insisting that those meanings apply to certain symbols and practices today. Additionally, he seems to find those symbols everywhere. I was dumbfounded at his uncanny ability to find demonic symbols wherever he looked around the Vatican and other places. I would never have seen them if he hadn't pointed them out, and I wasn't sure I could see them even when he pointed them out (even with magnification). This seems to be his pattern. And it's not his invention. This sort of conspiracy thinking was around long before Veith became a Christian. This is not "research" and it is not "evidence." It is conjecture, even though hoary with time. And even if it were true, I believe that as Christians we are not to focus on the devil's propaganda. Our sermons should lift up Christ as the main focus, rather than tacking Christ onto the end of a conspiracy lecture in a few sentences.

    Conspiracy promoters seem to offer something people want - a feeling of having "secret" or superior knowledge - thus enabling the hearer to feel superior to those who don't know this "insider information." I have seen how divisive this sort of thing is. It makes people feel that the mainline Seventh-day Adventist church doesn't have it right. The church is in apostasy ... that sort of thing. It makes people draw apart from the church in little groups. While Dr Veith never comes out directly to say that the church is in apostasy or that the church is Babylon, his hearers seem to draw that conclusion from the "evidence" he presents.

    It is well to remember that Veith is a trained biologist, and I believe he is good in his subject. His videos and writings on diet and health are excellent. But he is not a trained linguist and knows nothing about biblical languages any more than you and I do. He doesn't have any more background in theology and church history than you and I can have - and certainly less than our trained theologians and historians have. Yet his followers look to him as a source of sound theology and distrust all others. As long as he stays within our fundamental beliefs, he is great. But he doesn't do that. One example is his insistence on the superiority of the KJV. Even after some of our trained scholars pointed out the errors in his presentations, he claimed/claims that he has the real facts of the best manuscripts, etc. This is not a mark of humility.

    To be fair, Veith isn't the only high-profile preacher who preaches in a manner that attracts followers who conclude that the mainline church is in apostasy. Stephen Bohr seems to attract a similar following, although he's not into such conspiracy theories as Walter Veith.

    Now I'm not saying that these men are evil. I'm not saying they are not sincere, and I'm not saying that none of their preaching is good. What I am saying is that neither of these men are perfect. Neither of them have the "whole truth" and nothing but the truth. It is not good to set any one man up on a pedestal and defend all he says as though it were the ultimate truth. The wise man said it well when he wrote that there is safety in a multitude of counselors. (Prov 11:14) These men have some good things to offer, but we need "a multitude of counselors" to sift the truth from the speculation and outright error.

    I believe that Marcos's concern over conspiracy teachings is valid. The sense of false superiority such teachings give to followers is dangerous. And the very fact that they attract a cult-like following indicates there's something a little wrong.

    Alternatives:

    If you are someone who watches/listens mainly to Walter Veith, we seriously suggest that you branch out a little. Listen to/watch David Asherick for a while - especially if you appreciate dynamic preaching. Do the same with Dwight Nelson or Randy Roberts. All three are outstanding preachers in Adventism. Ascherick is particularly refreshing because he is still relatively young. He gives me hope for the future of Adventism. And there are others. If your tastes run to a more quiet manner, check out Ty Gibson. (Ty has a great series of under-10-minute videos at Digma.com suitable for sharing with non-believers. But above all, study the Bible for yourself and pray for guidance through the Holy Spirit, apart from what any preacher says.

    Amen!(37)
    • Veith seems to offer something people want - a feeling of having "secret" or superior knowledge - thus enabling the hearer to feel superior to those who don't know this "insider information." I have seen how divisive this sort of thing is.
      -------------------------------------------------

      I think in some senses Adventism is very vulnerable to this sort of thing because of the premium we place on information--and not being deceived.
      Adventism can sometimes be presented as "insider knowledge" especially where prophecy is concerned.

      Coupled with that, sometimes as individuals we can be tempted to scorn others who do not do or believe as we do.
      I have heard people (from the pulpit too) mock/deride Sunday-keeping, pork-eating, alcohol-drinking and other things that people who are not SDA choose to do.
      This can contribute to the pride that you speak about.

      I hope from your comments other people realize how crucial this issue is in our church. So far I wish the official response was more detailed from our conferences/GC. Such fanaticism (such that many comments were unprintable) is indicative of a serious problem.

      Amen!(11)
    • Inge Anderson - Thank you so much for this thorough and articulate reply. I very much appreciated this article by Marcos David Torres. I have for so long been seeing this problem develop within the church. I've struggled to explain to myself what exactly was happening to folks that seemed to love Jesus and want to spread His love and then change in a matter of weeks.

      They would get a hold of some videos and totally turn a corner and start talking about stuff that no longer reflected Jesus, but certainly alienated and alarmed many. Sadly, it can take loving, christian people and turn them into angry, forceful people who scorn you if you don't listen and buy in to what they are cornering you with. And these are people already in the church that are alienated. The worst part is when I've seen those that were just coming to learn about Jesus be turned off and chased away by what they are spreading.

      I am delighted to see that this is being spoken of and challenged. We need to get our focus back on Christ and the loveliness of His character. When one is looking for symbols of evil and speaking of all the places they are found - there is not one shred of the beauty of Christ in there. This does not focus the eyes on the author and finisher of our faith. This does not win souls for Christ.

      I was alarmed and saddened to see that there are so many 'likes' on the comments that defend this dark and ugly behavior and talk. And I am not surprised to hear that there were so many attackers. I fear that if Jesus Himself were to come down to this earth and personally say that this indulgence is focusing the world on Satan and ask for it to be dropped in favor of preaching beautiful truth over ugly conspiracy - Jesus would be attacked as well.

      I would like to commend Marcos David Torres for being brave enough to admit that he was caught up in this and what it did to him. It is never easy to expose our wrongs. I would also like to thank him for speaking out against this problem and bringing it to light. It gave clarity to something that has frustrated me immensely in the last few years. In creating an understanding in me, I can now be more effective in safe guarding against it and re-routing others back to the beautiful sight of our Savior and Redeemer.

      Amen!(12)
    • I am glad this topic was brought up. This is coming from a man who got caught up in these theories and left the church for some time because of ministries that promote these theories. I must say based on personal experience that anyone who entertains these theories will lose their way.

      There is no safety outside the righteousness of Christ. We must all have the wedding garments. I do believe that information if coupled with the Bible that exalts Jesus is well, but these theories exalt self. With self alive no man shall see God. Let us dwell on Christ. His purity, His perfect character, His sacrifice, His deep seated love for us. Dwelling on these theories blots out Christ's character from us.

      When I left the church, I started attending a independent church. In that church system many people focused on conspiracy theories and what the church was doing wrong. I would hear how the Jesuits infiltrated the church or the church was not the true church anymore. I went down to their camp meeting. People were very suspicious and watching for secret hand symbols or spiritual formation. There was no trust whatsoever. People did not possess the loving character of our dear savior instead they possess a counterfeit. There was independent, proud-spirited people who prided themselves on being separate from the church and their knowledge of what was going on(conspiracy theories). I advise everyone to please take this article as a warning not to get caught up in these theories. They may seem harmless but remember Satan is a very subtle and crafty enemy. Satan knows that if He can get us to take our eyes off Jesus he can have greater success shipwrecking our faith. I hope you prayerfully consider these statements. God bless all of you

      Amen!(9)
  15. When I was in my teens growing up in New Zealand in the early 1960s, our minister ran an evangelistic campaign in our town. His title for the first meeting was, "Will Britian ever join the European Economic Community? You need to understand that the NZ ecomomy of the time was based on dairy and sheep products that were sold to Great Britain by the shipload. The farmers in the district all turned up to listen to the ministers presentation of Daniel 2, particularly the bit about the ten toes remaining divided to the end of time. At the end of the presentation they warmly thanked the minister for his encouraging message and then they came back next week for more. Buoyed by their confidence in the minister's presentation of Europe divided - and by association - their dairy and sheep products would continue to be sold into Great Britian, they listened to the message and some of them stayed for the whole series and were baptised.

    A few years later Britain joined the European Economic Market and ultimately farm products had to find other markets. Farmers who had embraced the Adventist church as a result of that mission had their faith challenged and many of them left the church. Their thinking was that if we could get the prophecy about European unity wrong, we could get the whole plan of salvation wrong.

    This episode had a profound influence on me as I grew up and I sensed that placing your faith in an interpretation of prophecy was probably not a good idea. I must add, that I have a great respect for the minister concerned, he was the one who baptised me and was instrumental in a number of ways for keeping many of us young people in the faith. However it showed me our vulnerable we are when we try and interpret current events the way we want them to be interpreted.

    Over the years I have seen others make the same mistake, trying to fit individual events or episodes into our perception of the timeline of the end and after a time coming unstuck because the passage of time proves otherwise.

    We have been given enough warning about what it will be like at the end-time without trying to be specific about particular events. Sometimes we are guilty of adopting urban myths to bolster our faith.

    There is only one in whom we should put our trust. We have been told that even prophecies shall fail in 1 Cor 13: 8-10 "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

    Amen!(20)
  16. Is the teaching of Sunday as the Mark of the beast not a conspiracy Theory? Using the argument in the article the same can be said on our teaching of the Mark of the beast and Sunday worship and close of probation and sanctuary in heaven etc. As Adventist we have stretch the Bible quote history, make numerous assumptions, apply everything in Rome (the papacy) to fit a prophecy.
    There is no Bible verse or verses that speaks to Sunday as the devil except we stretch and stretch and stretch.
    I have always been amazed as to why God would not have such a clear fact not well documented without having to code it that only Adventist can resolve.
    The EGW always uses the lines "I was shown" did it ever dawn on us that she did not say "I WAS shown by God"
    The message of the Gospel of Christ is very simple, It not about Sunday Vs Sabbath, even if we will try to qualify it as God vs Satan.
    Lets stop wasting time trying to determine who is worshiping falsely but focus our attention on Jesus. Light dispels darkness as such when we know the Truth who is Jesus (not a thing or doctrines) we have nothing to fear.

    Amen!(6)
    • Lindsley, I understand what you are saying and my answer would be yes and no. I really do think we need to focus more on Christ and less on peripheral issues but I won’t go so far as to eliminate those other issues all together. God didn’t spin His wheels in giving John the visions He did concerning end time events neither did He waste time giving Ellen White visions on the same subject. We need those things but we shouldn’t turn them into some fanatical movement involving theories of all sorts.

      It has been said by others that if we want to detect a counterfeit what we should do is the study the genuine. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that statement but there are other things we need to know besides what the character of Jesus is like. We have been given a lot of information through inspiration on what to avoid and light has been given that exposes many of Satan’s traps. If we ignore those things then we are opening ourselves up to unnecessary trouble in the future. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3:16-17 NKJV). "Believe in the LORD your God, and you shall be established; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper" (2 Chron 20:20 NKJV).

      Amen!(13)
    • When you understand the meaning of the Sabbath in the context of the Great Controversy, then the Sunday stuff will fall into perspective.
      You can't understand Sunday and the end times without first understanding the true meaning of the Sabbath.

      Amen!(14)
    • Lindsley, the mark of the beast is a biblical teaching that scripture and reality point clearly to. It requires only a knowledge of God compared to the teaching of men, and nothing more. The fulfilling of this will prove it true to those who are skeptical at this time. Wait for it. Many non-Adventist have figured it out and became Adventists as a result.

      If you recall the parable of the man plowing the field and finding a hidden treasure, you will understand why God does not place "truth" on the surface. The Bible must be thoroughly "plowed" by all who would find it's treasures. This is why Jesus spoke in parables, to divide the true seeker from the casual, indifferent throng. Only the Holy Spirit can open our understanding of what is contained in scripture and only a personal effort will make it clear. This places our dependence upon God alone. Prov 2:1-5

      Revelation 1:1 tells us God will show "unto His servants" what is coming. Others will be left guessing and questioning the meaning of these symbolic prophecies designed to hide the facts from those who love the world more than Christ. See also John 7:17.

      Amen!(9)
  17. Thank you Marcos for your article because I believe it was an answer to prayer. I have heard mumblings of "conspiracy" "secret society" "Illuminati" in both the religious and secular circles of society and I found myself asking God, "does this information edify me?" In my mind, secret societies and conspiracies are all full of supernatural darkness that can subject us to fear and guide us to seek answers from other than God like Saul did with the Medium at Endor. I may be looking at this very simply, but our Lord said, "Seek first the kingdom of God and all of these things will be given to you as well" Matt 6:33. To me, that verse is saying that God will give us everything we need thwart the workings of the enemy. All information that we will need will be given to us and we will be sustained throughout because, "If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

    Amen!(16)
  18. In addition, on my country, we have started registering our phone sim cards using our registration cards and giving a lot of information on the registration forms. Now they want us to register our addresses with our authorities. Need I be scared? No but at least I know that we are nearing the end and I must build a good relationship with Jesus. We have charismatic movements in our church and yet we feel content in attacking others, please spend time spreading the gospel other than attacking individuals. I was appalled when one contributer defended Hollywood movies under the guise that we learn cultures from good movies.its a pity we even have time for movies when plenty of religious movies are craving to be watched. I watched mark Wildman s presentations from who is God to the final confrontation. He had articulated spiritual issues well and our fundamental beliefs well. Much of what we teach as prophecy can also be viewed as conspiracy Theories so let's stop being hypocritical.

    Amen!(7)
  19. I like the message. I have been ignorant of the facts you have displayed. Henceforth am going to relate to any information prayerfully in a way that I shouldn't be carried away nor become fearful before ascertaining the facts.

    Amen!(12)
  20. Perhaps a few verses of scripture, then one "quote":

    Phil 4:8 (first and foremost when considering such subjects)
    John 14:27 (remembering that perfect love casts out fear...)
    Jer 17:5 (what man could you possibly trust enough?!)
    Ps 1:1-3 (the Christian's first mandate)
    Acts 1:8 (the duty of God's Servants who follow our first mandate)

    "The opening of the blackness of impurity will not be one half as efficacious in uprooting sin as will the presentation of these grand and ennobling themes.... The Bible and the Bible alone has given the true lessons upon purity. Then preach the Word....

    The purity, the holiness, of the life of Jesus as presented from the Word of God possess more power to reform and transform the character than do all the efforts put forth in picturing sins and crimes of men and the sure results. One steadfast look to the Savior uplifted upon the cross will do more to purify the mind and heart from every defilement than will all the scientific explanations by the ablest tongue." LHU 297

    Concerning one of the men mentioned in the article, I have only watched a few minutes of video before turning away. I have seen the effect of his teaching on those who followed him closely, and it took them in the wrong direction, full of fear "for those things coming upon the earth".

    Amen!(6)
  21. [Full name please?]

    Most people that have something to say about [name redacted], whether pro or con only focus on the middle videos of the Onslaught series. 10 out of 10 times you ask these people that "know" something about [name redacted] and his seminars, only know of the dvd's that deal with Freemasonry, the Bible Versions etc. but they can't tell you what first and last few DVDs in the series are about. They are about Jesus, about his love and mercy and his righteousness. No one ever talks about his powerful talks on Creation and Health. No one ever talks about how God uses him in Sunday churches to present topics on creation, and by the end of the seminar, the whole church is actively participating in Bible studies to understand the Sabbath truth in addition to other Present Truth.

    I'll be the first to agree that conspiracy theories are areas that should not be dwelt on to long as it can take our focus off Christ. However Protestants have been dealing with some of the biggest conspiracies theories since the conception of the papal system.

    As far as Battlefield Hollywood, the amount of powerful testimonies of young people of coming out of Babylon (2nd Angels Msg I might remind you) because a few seminars/videos, opened their eyes because the Holy Spirit pricked their hearts. Gansters, atheists, hardcore gamers, lukewarm christians; eyes opened to the reality of the destructive nature of Hollywood and the entertainment. Battlefield Hollywood wasn't designed for Sda christian that has turned their back on the world. They were designed, from what I've observed, for the sinner who is either in darkness or sinner that is lukewarm.

    FYI subliminal advertising is very effective and it does work. If didn't work, they wouldn't keeping using it. The secular world is showing how much it does work. Studies are conducted at ivy league schools to show that short brand exposure does actually works. Let's not be naive and think that it doesn't.

    Amen!(16)
    • Thank you for your comment, BJ.

      I applaud the producers of Battlefield Hollywood and their intentions. They present some good information, especially about the effect of movies on the brain. However, their inclusion of conspiracy theories in their interpretation of supposedly hidden symbols detracts from their credibility. (Additionally, I find their showing of objectionable movie clips mind-polluting.)

      As for subliminal advertising being "very effective" according the studies done at "ivy league schools," I would be interested in any evidence that confirms this. My understanding is that using subliminal messages in advertising is illegal in the US. Moreover, the example most often used (increasing the sale of popcorn in theaters due to subliminal priming, as reported by James Vicary) is known to be bogus. See snopes.com, The Atlantic and the Business Dictionary, for instance.)

      As I understand it, although current research on subliminal advertising is in progress, the results have not come anywhere close to those claimed by the conspiracy promoters.

      Amen!(2)
      • [Moderator Note: Even though we have not received a reply to our request for a full name, we feel this comment is important to publish for the sake of balance.]

        Thanks Inge for your response.

        I know Little Light Studios producers have walked away from symbols association years ago. And again, been to a number of their seminars and talked with them in person, their outreach is the "lukewarm" and the unchurched. The video clips show are their to show from the "horses" mouth how these major hollywood programs come to be. Once the evidence show, in other words proof, it moves out of the realm of Conspiracy Theory, and into the realm of factual. They shows these clips to show that, yes, the creator of superman comics channeled demonic spirits to pen the comics that was transformed into a movie. Furthermore when just about every hand goes up at an SDA school chapel, when asked "who has seen this movie", those examples that are show become way more relevant to the students.

        As far as subliminal advertising goes, yes the "movie popcorn" deal was bogus. And yes it is illegal, however it still takes place under the guise of "short brand exposure"

        https://faculty.fuqua.duke.edu/~tlc10/bio/TLC_articles/2008/Fitzsimons_Chartrand_Fitzsimons_2008.pdf

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7tEo8xJ9VM

        http://www.communicationcache.com/uploads/1/0/8/8/10887248/the_generalizability_of_subliminal_mere_exposure_effects-_influence_of_stimuli_perceived_without_awareness_on_social_behavior.pdf

        http://www.ideal.forestry.ubc.ca/frst524/mere_exposure_gate_way_to_the_subliminal.pdf

        I could keep going with the research data if you would like.

        Lastly, if you watched the parts in their videos dealing with the brain and how it reacts to entertainment viewing, we can remember that it becomes inactive in processing information. Therefore the mind is wide open to unfiltered content.

        Amen!(2)
        • Thank you for your reply, BJ.

          I am especially delighted to hear that "Little Light Studios producers have walked away from symbols association years ago." That was my main objection to their videos - and it was probably why Marcos Torres mentioned them in connection with conspiracy theories.

          Their videos are on a different plane than the conspiracy focus in the teaching of prophecies, because they focus directly on Hollywood entertainment. Since I haven't seen recent versions of their videos, I do not know whether there is any conspiracy emphasis in the videos. In my opinion, such an emphasis would detract rather than add to the subject matter. The actual facts are bad enough without tying them to conspiracies.

          The effects of TV and movie watching on the brain is demonstrable science, and that, in itself, should be enough to wean thinking Adventists from the tube, in my opinion. Unfortunately, even religious programming, including Adventist programming, may use the same methods as secular programming and thus prevent actual thoughtful engagement with the material presented. And that is not good.

          As for the studies on subliminal advertising - they should cause us to think more seriously about how we expose our children and ourselves to influences that lead away from God. The influence is below the level of consciousness. That said, the studies I read and the ones you cited are a far cry from the conspiracy emphasis on this subject as I have heard/seen it. (That emphasis is what I called "bogus.") Among other things, one study clearly demonstrated that subliminal ads (which are illegal, by the way) had minimum effect on people's choices, unless they were "primed" beforehand to want to do what the subliminal ads suggested.

          Amen!(1)
    • About subliminal advertising....many, many years ago how on Sunday tabloid exposed this under an article headed "This is rape of the mind". This, by the way, was in the UK, back in the 1950s. When another TV channel came into being, we hadn't had our TV very long before my father, a Methodist, exclaimed in disgust at the adverts put out in these words: "It's worse than propaganda!"
      Conspiracy theories? Take one: the use of modern translations of the Bible. Why shouldn't we have God's Word in a language that we speak and understand? I find these diatribes against modern versions to be little better than a modern counterpart of what was "going the rounds" back in the 16th century. Then the common people weren't taken in. Nor should we. As an Englishman(and a compulsive reader since childhood) I find this obsession with conspiracy, and its use to damn the really good who are seeking to edify the people frnkly disgusting.

      Amen!(0)
  22. I have been trying to make sense of this article and the comments and it seems that bias and prejudice abound on all sides to the point that it is hard to make sense of it all.

    I have watched some videos by [name redacted] and have felt a little sensationalism at times. Even the Great Controversy by Ellen White might be seen to be sensational by some. Revelation authored by Jesus and John might seem to be very sensational by some especially in light of Adventist interpretation.

    I choose to be aware of these things without passing judgment on the parts I don't know fully about and watch and see how things like this turn out. To throw out any one contributor because of my prejudice or bias would not be honest on my part and is not safe in making up a "balanced" view.

    I choose to withhold comments of judgment upon particular speakers or sources and receive them as I would want others to receive me--a learning, growing, concerned, caring child of God desiring the good of others.

    Amen!(12)
  23. I would also like to comment that it seems to me that the contributors in this discussion have an intention of correcting a potential and, in some cases, a real problem of becoming overbalanced in the negatives of conspiracy talk and fear.

    However, there are some things out there that are down right dangerous to our children and adults that need to be revealed and even though I see Little light Ministries as on the sensational side I am thankful for some of the insights that are brought out. They have helped me to begin to realize that video and computer games, music, and other forms of modern entertainment can be very addictive and emotionally, spiritually, and even physically detrimental to young and old alike. I have seen first-hand evidence of this also. Now I don't have to experience the addictions in order to know to stay away from these things and to know how to advise my children and grandchildren in regard to the innovations of the modern age.

    I think that while we should shun untruthfulness in the form of sensationalism complete with the music that enhances the emotional factors of our brain, we should take every advantage to find the truth about the path of Jesus and to know what we should stay away from and what we should be involved with for the best results in developing the character of Christ in our lives. If the musical enhancement of some documentary of some "danger" is on the order of sensational then I choose to try to take account of that in my judgment of the intellectual content. I would like to see less dramatacism in these documentaries.

    We must also realize that facts may not always be absolute truth in some of these documentaries and that it is always good to check them out whenever possible and in some cases to put the facts presented on "hold" for awhile to let God send us more conformation on the matter. We live in a dangerous age but God promises that He will guide us with His "eye." His eye sees better that ours.

    Amen!(6)
  24. If you are lacking in the Three Angels message Albert, just type in Dwight Nelson sermons on you search engine. Click on Three Angels, One Warning: American Confusion or Three Angels, One Warning: Babylonian Confusion.
    Good article Marcos.
    Good points Andrew and Inge.
    Happy Sabbath everyone

    Amen!(5)
  25. Very good article. Many are quick to spread the latest conspiracy theory, some may be true, many others are shown to be false. Either way, in quoting spiritualists they are placing some faith in the "father of lies" rather than anchoring it in Jesus and God's word. In Patriarchs and Prophets (chapter on the Temptation and Fall), Ellen White says "In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth". It's a comfort to know that we don't need to concern ourselves in untangling deception so much as we need to learn the truth in God's word.

    Amen!(8)
  26. I should also mention I don't want to insult anyone. I used to watch videos presented by one very prominant individual mentioned in this article. What made me realize that this was not in harmony with God's will for me is the following quotes from Ellen White:

    "Meet Sophistries With Truth.--I am instructed to say to you that it is not best to dwell upon the spiritualistic sentiments, the strange, misleading theories, which have for years been coming in among us. {Evangelism, p. 623.2}
    It is not best to preach on the subject of Pantheism or to read quotations from authors who write on this subject, and the specious, deceptive errors that lead to it. The statements made in Testimonies, volume 8, are sufficient to warn our people to avoid these errors. These statements will do more to enlighten minds than all the explanations or theories that our ministers and teachers may put forth concerning these matters.
    If you try to handle these subjects, you will be led to repeat the sophistries of Satan, and thus you will help Satan to present his false theories to the people. Resolve never, never to repeat error, but always to teach the truth. Fill hearts and minds with the solemn, sacred truth for this time.{Ev 623.4}
    Dwell on present truth, on Christ's second coming. The Lord is coming very soon. We have only a little while in which to present the truth for this time--the truth that is to convert souls. This truth is to be presented in the utmost simplicity, even as Christ presented it, so that the people can understand what is truth. Truth will dispel the clouds of error. {Ev 624.1}
    Give the people present truth. Talk the truth. Fill their minds with truth. Build up the strongholds of truth. And do not bring Satan's theories to minds that should not hear in regard to them. What the people need is not a representation of the seductive arts of Satan, but a presentation of the truth as it is in Jesus. Remember that the devil can be served by a repetition of his lies. The less we handle these objectionable subjects, the purer, cleaner, and less tainted will be our minds and our principles. . . . {Ev 624.2}
    And I have been shown that we are not to enter into controversy over these spiritualistic theories, because such controversy will only confuse minds. These things are not to be brought into our meetings. We are not to labor to refute them. If our ministers and teachers give themselves to the study of these erroneous theories, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It is not the work of the gospel minister to voice Satan's theories. . . . {Ev 624.3}
    Hold up the truth; magnify the truth; say, "It is written."--Letter 175, 1904. {Ev 624.4}

    Amen!(14)
  27. Conspiracy started in heaven with Lucifer and his angels. He conspired with 1/3 of the host of heaven to fight the Creator. Conspiracy is real. That is why we need to have faith and test these spirits. When conspiracy is real, JESUS is the truth, the ONLY way. We need to always look forward to that BLESSED HOPE of our God and Savior. He is soon coming. Even in the end, Satan as what the Spirit of Prophecy is telling us, will still conspire with the fallen kings of the earth and destroy the Holy City with the Saints and with the SAVIOR. God will always be our protection.

    Amen!(5)
    • Hello Even,

      Thank you for your comment.

      Because there is a real conspiracy, we must avoid talking about all the human conspiracies floating around the internet with doubtful documentation. Such a focus eclipses the focus on Jesus.

      We have no need to study conspiracies. We just need to believe what our Lord has given us in Scripture and trust that He will carry us through.

      There are so many "conspiracies" and so many wrong teachings in the world that, if we think we need to study them all, that's all we would have time for. And "by beholding we become changed." Let's "behold" Jesus instead and follow His example of service to those around us. 🙂

      Amen!(7)
  28. I think sometimes those who feel they have a special insight or message for the church do not take into consideration enough the impact of these messages on church members. As a young Seventh Day Adventist I almost walked away from the church after studying with people who have special insight into what I call exotic topics.

    I can trace back to the 1970s when I came into the church the speakers with insight into what was really happening behind the scenes where prophecy is concerned, and see with each lack of fulfillment, they just rationalized the discrepancies away. When Pope John Paul was Pope, they had scriptures and quotes from Ellen White, and newspaper articles to show that he was the one that was going to bring in Sunday law. When Benedict became Pope, we were told that he was actually the one behind the scenes and John Paul was just a puppet, that he was going to bring in the Sunday law. Now that there is a new pope, there are new arguments, evidence, and articles to show that he is the Jesuit Pope, or the Black Pope and that he is the one to bring in the end times. There is even some in my church who proclaimed that prophecy shows that Obama will bring in Sunday law. Now that he is on his way out of office, the rationalizations will begin again.

    While I have nothing personally again people like [name redacted], they often underestimate how their ministries impact the local churches. Not all members are as rational as them and they diligently watch their videos (they are shown in my church), and what we find is no corresponding deepening of relationships with God and commitment to witnessing, instead we have groups who are so suspicious of the government, the church, the local pastor. They do not study the quarterlies as they claim the church has been infiltrated by Jesuits and other such powers. There is such deep suspicion among members who follow some of these independent ministries, the local church leaders are having tremendous difficulties with groups that meet even in divine hour time around the churches forever discussing and arguing about the topics that often include sensationalism.

    I cannot forget the elder in my church who had a print out from the internet of over 100 instances in which the church has been infiltrated by Rome. He stuck a picture of Doug Bachelor taken with three smiling nuns, who probably just wanted a selfie with someone they know from television, and told emphatically that even Doug Bachelor had apostatized.

    I have a new rule for myself, I prayerfully study the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, and ignore almost everything else.

    Amen!(12)
    • Grace, to your last sentence as well as the rest; Amen.

      "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of [our] faith..."

      Amen!(4)
  29. Do we wish to win souls to Christ? The cross is the way to do that, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life” (Jn 3:14-15 NKJV). To Moses the command was given to have the people look at the bronze serpent not the real ones around them – “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor 5:21 NKJV). Does that mean that we become ignorant of the evils in the world around us? No, but it does tell us where our focus should be.

    Amen!(10)
  30. I am not commenting much on the end time and conspiracy theories but as Christians, we all have to focus our attention to Jesus - nothing else! He is the one who gave His life for us - no one else! Any conspiracy theories will lead us out from Jesus.
    As we are living in this last days, if there is anything to do - READ OUR BIBLE and trust its content.

    May our good God continue to guide and lead us to right path!

    Amen!(7)
  31. A brief note for those who have commented on my blog post:

    This article was written to point sincere searchers of truth in the right direction. It is not written to "convert" those who have already made up their minds (quite frankly an impossibility). I have no time nor will to debate someone over Dr Veith. The point of the article is not Dr Veith. I was very clear that I have nothing against him as a person. Conspiracy theorizing is much larger than one man or ministry. But those who are enamored with conspiracy theories will not consider the positive aspects of this article but will hinge on that which prods their personal icon - in this case it is Dr Veith.

    This article was also written as an informative piece on SDA conspiracy culture.

    There is a difference between name calling and reporting. Name calling takes place when I attach someone's name to an activity or ideology when they themselves are not clear on the topic. Mentioning Veith as a conspiracy theory promoter is not name calling. It is reporting, since his promulgation of conspiracy theories is clear and he does not deny such activity. Of course, if the entire article was an attack against Dr Veith it could still fall under the category of name calling, but he is briefly mentioned only as an obvious example. Having his name in an article about conspiracy theorizing is no different from having Stephen Bohr's or Doug Batchelor's name in an article about women's ordination.

    (My internet access is very limited at the moment. I have to write this response offline then quickly hop online to send it before I go offline again.)

    Amen!(6)
    • Marcos, I believe the correct term to use concerning many who cling to conspiracy theories is idolatry. I have met several people like that in the past and there are times when it is very difficult to get them to talk about anything else including Christ. To me it is almost an addiction so thank you for bringing the problem to view in spite of all the negative response.

      Amen!(3)
  32. There has been much talk about the three angels message. I concur that they must be fully comprehended and understood by those who espouse them. However, I have seen no mention of the Elijah message. This is the message that John the Baptist proclaimed before the coming of the Messiah. My question is this; isn't this message meant to be given again. Don't God's servants have a responsibility to clear the pathway, to level out the mountains, and fill the valleys and make straight the way so that people can hear the word in its simplicity and easily understand it. This being the case that doesn't leave a great deal of room for conspiracies

    Amen!(1)
  33. God's Word contains our subject matter, and this we should hold forth with the authority given through the power of the Holy Spirit. IF we lack the Spirit there is reason and we are not left without knowing it.

    Concerning the exposure of wickedness, the Bible focuses on one power that would arise and deceive all who's names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. This seems a great subject for presenting: The Lamb, and His book of Life. If we get this across, the battle is won! Yes, the powers of darkness are given enough detail to expose them to any who need that information, but the only remedy is found in following the Lamb of God wherever He leads. This should be the focus of our public efforts since this is the focus of scripture starting in Genesis 3:15.

    We can be busy serving Christ or busy chasing the devil. Which will it be?

    Amen!(7)
  34. Sadly people are inclined to believe in conspiracy theories do so because there have been so many lies and cover-ups, and there are secret societies. There are many links. I like to be informed and I believe that Satan has worked through many channels and people to bring about his intended goal of destroying God's people. I think the danger lies in trying to make the newspaper headlines fit prophecy. God gave us enough so that we would know the "season" and not be deceived. The most reliable approach is to study and know the Scriptures and pray for discernment. IF we are the last generation (and someone has to be) we need to pray that we are not among the deceived and have the strength to go through whatever comes. It does not serve us well to be ignorant either or Jesus would not have taken His time to inform the disciples for our sake.

    Amen!(5)
  35. A Message to Our Readers

    We have not published a number of comments under this post because they focused largely on Walter Veith, rather than the subject of this post. Instead, we have given individuals the opportunity to revise their comment by sending them this message:

    We appreciate your taking the time to respond to an essay on our blog. Please understand that, as much as possible, we try to ensure that the conversation stays on topic. In this case, the topic is "The End Time and Conspiracy Theories."

    Unfortunately, the conversation has degenerated in being mainly about Walter Veith. This has the tendency to take attention off the main topic. Marcos Torres mentioned Dr Veith in passing regarding conspiracy theories because he appears to be the main proponent of such theories in Adventism. Such theories did not begin with him. Some of us have known of variations of such theories for 50 years or so. But right now, he seems to be the main standard bearer. Not even Dr Veith himself would deny that he has focused quite a bit on conspiracies. Pastor Torres's emphasis was in 7 points:

    1. Conspiracy theories distract from Jesus.
    2. Conspiracy theories generate a spirit of fear and anxiety.
    3. Conspiracy theories generate a spirit of distrust.
    4. Conspiracy theories damage our character and our witness.
    5. Not everything is the result of a conspiracy
    6. What’s different between studying and conspiracy theories?
    7. Focus on Jesus instead.

    And we would like to repeat that appeal: Focus on Jesus instead.

    We do welcome your comments on this post, but please address the points made by Pastor Marcos, and do not just say that Marcos is good or bad or that Dr Veith is wonderful or bad. In fact, posts addressed to persons rather than issues are generally against our rules.

    Additionally, comments saying essentially the same thing as comments made previously do not contribute to the conversation. Instead, please feel free to "Like" the previous comment.

    In light of this, we would like to give you an opportunity to revise your comment in line with the points made by the author. Thus we are not publishing this particular comment at this time.

    Anyone is still welcome to comment on this topic, but please do not focus your comment on Dr. Veith. That he lectures on conspiracies not even he would dispute. So please don't tell us that mentioning Dr. Veith in connection with conspiracy theories is unfair. No one questions Dr. Veith's character or sincerity. The post was a warning against focusing on conspiracy theories. So please address your comment to the points Pastor Marcos made.

    If you have experience with conspiracy theories in your life or in your church, your comment could be especially helpful under this post.

    Amen!(3)
  36. This message is evil. Demons exist. The Devil exist. Satan and his angels never rest, we are to be watchful. If knowing what satan is doing brings you "fear" then you are not close enough to God.
    This message is from the devil, he would like nothing more that for us to ignore what he's doing.
    Are people really naive enough to think the devil doesn't spend his time conspiring?
    In war you study the enemies tactics, you learn what the enemy is doing, so you can defend your side, it's the same here. This is a war, if you don't believe that satan and his angels are at war against Gods followers then you are not only blind, but lost.
    Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    Amen!(2)
    • Dear Bryan,

      The author of the post does not deny that Satan exists and that he is busy. He is, however, suggesting that focusing on the work of the devil - whether real or imagined - is not the work Christ gave us to do. Christ defeated Satan through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the only way we can defeat Satan in our lives is by nurturing a close connection with Jesus Christ.

      The idea what we can be saved by knowing everything the devil is up to is actually a form of neo-gnosticism, because gnosticism teaches we are saved by knowledge. This is a heresy. We are only saved by Jesus Christ.

      Yes we are involved in a war - the war between Christ and Satan. And that is precisely why we should not spend time focusing on Satan, because we become like the object of our focus. The weapons of our war are found in bringing every thought in captivity to Christ (2 Cor 10:4-6). Our real war is against Satan's inroads in our own hearts - not against conspiracies in the world.

      And this is our armor/protection against the attacks of Satan:

      take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

      14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit ... (Eph. 6:13-18)

      Amen!(4)
    • Jesus says; "Come unto me...and learn of me." When the disciples spoke of the devils Jesus said; "I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven." Jesus was telling them not to give the devil any concern for he was defeated. Finished. He told them to rejoice in their salvation through the Lamb of God. They were sent to preach the gospel of the Kingdom, not the sophistries of Satan. We don't need to know the enemy, we need only know Christ and the truth as defined by His life, and the enemy will flee from us. It is knowing the Truth that sets sinners free, not knowledge of a liar and murderer.

      Satan is finished and knows it.

      Amen!(4)
  37. In our towns nowadays, anybody who become wealthier or popular very fast is seen as a mason member. People turn conspiracy into reality and tag membership to anyone who is successful, and this is done by church members. It turns faith into fear and in this part of the world where ignorance reign the impact is fatal.

    Amen!(2)
  38. I have been a member of the SDA Church for over 40 years and I am privileged to be a son of God and proud to be a SDA. English is not my mother tongue so please pardon me if I fail to express my opinions clearly.
    Our Church has always taken pride in asking its members to study the Biblical truths diligently for themselves, and build our own faith solidly on the Rock of Jesus. Therefore this constant and never ending search for more Present Truths is deeply ingrained into our collective psyche of the SDA family. Examples being the interpretation of the 2300 days prophecy and the last days events including the mark of the beast before our Savior returns. These are our unique truths / doctrines not so welcomed by other denominations even though they read the same bible.
    The downside of studying and searching for more truths is that we can be a victim of our own culture as some in their search for truths may face the danger of going overboard or misunderstanding the texts or embracing some fancy conspiracy theories at the expense of losing sight of our dear Savior. But this is something inherent in our system, because we do not spoon feed our members and order them to just sit quietly and obey.
    Now my main point: those who are new members should only receive spiritual milk. conspiracy theories are too strong for them to handle, they might get poisoned by them. However, those who have been in the Church for some years and have solid relationship with Jesus, can delve into such study of conspiracy theories from our own ranks, provided, of course, that they do not lose sight of the joy and happiness that can only be found in our blessed Savior.
    My final point is that I have been blessed by WV's ministry, and I firmly believe that he is an instrument used by the Almighty to reach people who otherwise may never be touched by traditional conservative SDA evangelists. So don't write him off just like that, otherwise there are people who would feel deeply offended, myself included.

    Amen!(7)
    • Dear Monty,

      Thank you for your comment. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply.

      We are not "writing off" any person or any preacher. However, we are expressing our strong opposition to the promotion of conspiracies whether factual or not. Unfortunately the most dangerous promotion of conspiracy theories come from those who mix conspiracies with legitimate prophecies. This has done major damage to our evangelism outreach as some of this conspiracy thinking has been exposed in the media, such as the publicity surrounding Angus T. Jones's conversion to Adventism and his repeating the conspiracy talk of his mentor, Christopher Hudson. The world spent some time laughing at Seventh-day Adventists, because it looked as though these were Adventist teachings.

      You seem to believe that conspiracies are for mature Adventists to study, and that's what brings us back to the topic under discussion. Could you please share what value such conspiracies add to our relationship with Jesus and to our spreading the gospel of the kingdom - keeping in mind that, by definition, conspiracies are hard to prove conclusively? Keep in mind also what Ellen White said about dealing with various theories.

      Should we not focus on promoting Christ, rather than conspiracies, in these end times when His coming is right at the door? Will conspiracies prepare people for Christ? Consider that by beholding we become changed into the image of what we behold. Should we therefore focus on the deeds and character of Satan or on the deeds and character of Jesus?

      There were most certainly genuine conspiracies at the time of Christ. Barabbas was one conspirator who was caught. Do you find any evidence that Jesus ever spoke of conspiracies? To whom shall we look as our example - Christ or Barabbas?

      Amen!(4)
  39. I applaud Marcos David Torres’ article and Inge Anderson’s comments for their focus to really expose Conspiracy Theorising for what it really is: wild outlandish speculation with no foothold in reality. The limits to this kind of speculation are only as far as your mind can fantasise. I would go further than Torres’ article which is still willing to give Conspiracy Theorising an air of respectability – I say it is an unhealthy, self-delusional, superstitious, and dangerously deceptive way of thinking. It is the modern day equivalent of old folk superstitions and mythologizing dressed up with modern garb. Superstitions and myths are not based on evidence but fear, speculation, hearsay, in the same way that Conspiracy Theorising does. That’s why I say that it is the modern day equivalence.

    I used to be a person who held conspiracies by the likes of Bill Hughes and [name redacted] in high esteem – I watched [name redacted]’s entire Total Onslaught series (several times in fact) (as well as other series). I readily accepted their conclusions since I was young and vulnerable with no tools of how to reason clearly, how to survey evidence, how to proceed to a deductive conclusion based on evidence. And now, looking back, after having self-educated myself, I feel betrayed and disgusted by people like [name redacted] who really do more harm than good, regardless of his other seemingly more Christ-focussed lectures, because they delude you into a reality that does not exist, posing as highly educated and exclusive arbiters of truth when in truth they are deluded amateurs.

    Here’s my primary objection against ALL Conspiracy Theorising (which has touched on a lot by others already):
    (1) It does NOT seek TRUTH, but rather PRE-DETERMINES what Truth should be defined as based on a Propagandist Agenda.
    (2) It then proceeds to support that Agenda with SUPERFICIAL, SCANT and even TWISTED INTERPRETATION OF THE EVIDENCE, if they present any serious evidence at all.
    (3) Which then leads to an UNSUBSTANTIATED CONCLUSION that has no real connection with the evidence.

    People of Truth, as Christians claim to be and should be, should be smarter, wiser and more informed than they reveal themselves to be in matters of Conspiracy Theorising. The way to do so is to follow fundamental principles that we can draw from the Bible (of which I will only mention 3):
    (1) The Law of Verification
    (2) The Law of Impartiality and Objectivity
    (3) The Law of Empirical Evidence

    THE LAW OF VERIFICATION: The principle is based on 1 Thessalonians 5:21 which admonishes us to “PROVE All Things.” The Greek word for ‘prove’ is dokimazō (Strong, G1381), which means “to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)” and “to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.” Therefore, what this passage is telling us that you cannot just accept any old theory when it is presented but rather test it. Just as you wouldn’t make any verdict in Court with a lack of evidence or evidence that hasn’t been analysed or that seems spurious, so you shouldn’t merely give a verdict based on someone merely saying it, but be familiar with the facts, verified by credible independent sources.

    THE LAW OF IMPARTIALITY AND OBJECTIVITY: The principle is based on James 3:17 and 1 Timothy 5.21. “The WISDOM FROM ABOVE is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, OPEN TO REASON, full of mercy and good fruits, IMPARTIAL and sincere.” - James 3.17 (ESV). The Greek word for “open to reason” is eupeithēs (Strong, G2138), which means to be good for persuasion, or in other words to be open to persuasion. The Greek word for “impartial” is adiakritos (Strong, G87), which means to be without partiality, in other words unbiased, unprejudiced, fair, objective (Strong’s Definitions).
    “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules WITHOUT PREJUDGING, DOING NOTHING FROM PARTIALITY.” - 1 Timothy 5.21 (ESV) The Greek word for “prejudging” is prokrima (Strong, G4299) which means, ‘an opinion formed before the facts are known; a prejudgment, a prejudice’ (Thayer’s Greek Definitions). The Greek word for “partiality” is prosklisis (Strong, G4346), which means a leaning towards, that is favouritism, bias (Strong’s Greek Dictionary).
    Therefore, the principles given here are admonishing us be OPEN TO PERSUASION, IMPARTIAL, and in all things NOT TO BE PREJUDICE or have PREJUDGMENT BEFORE THE FACTS ARE KNOWN. You wouldn’t use loaded dice that would pre-determine the outcome because that would be cheating. You wouldn’t come into court having already made up your mind before the evidence is presented because you would be considered a juror with a severe lack of good judgment.

    THE LAW OF EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE: This principle is one that we should all be familiar with because it is practised when making a case for any theological position. We use evidence in the form of scriptural verses. But we do not or should not do it the other way around. In other words, ALL CONCLUSIONS MUST BE BASED ON EVIDENCE, NOT EVIDENCE FILTERED BY PRE-DETERMINED CONCLUSIONS. “For he [Apollos the Alexandrian Jew, who was competent [Grk. dunatos, “powerful”] in the Scriptures (v. 24), who taught accurately about Jesus (v. 25), and who spoke boldly in the synagogue (v. 26)] powerfully refuted the Jews in public, SHOWING BY THE SCRIPTURES that the Christ was Jesus.” - Acts 18.28 (ESV). In other words, we should argue for points ‘SHOWING BY THE EVIDENCE.’

    With Conspiracy Theorising ALL these Biblical principles are CONTRAVENED.

    CONSPIRACY THEORY EXAMPLE: THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH CREATED ISLAM

    A great case in point is [name redacted]’s Conspiracy Theory that the Roman Catholic Church created Islam. [Editor's note: This is taught by more than one conspiracy promoter.]

    · VERFICATION PRINCIPLE is contravened because he does not see a need to VERIFY this claim that he has taken from his primary source, Alberto Rivera. He does not consult even one serious historical work of the development of Islam to verify this theory. Nor does he verify his source who happens to be one of the biggest religious fraudsters of all time. I checked Rivera out by obtaining eyewitness testimony, copies of court proceedings of his misuse of people’s money who contributed to his ministry, as well as pastoral letters of the church which he attended that rejected him because of his lies, and all point to him lying about his story of being a Jesuit with inside information.

    IMPARTIALITY PRINCIPLE is contravened because [name redacted] already has PRE-DETERMINED the outcome, which is easily seen since he provides virtually no proper historical EVIDENCE for his theory, is ignorant of the actual debate and discussion on the history of Islam, and yet remains utterly confident that his theory is true simply by symbology (which by the way as mentioned by Inge Anderson is open to interpretation certainly cannot PROVE Islam’s origin from CATHOLICISM).

    EVIDENCE PRINCIPLE is contravened since he provides absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, but only rants on about Free Masonry and Roman Catholicism. I’ve studied the history of Islam, trying to use the best historical authorities and sources from both protagonists and antagonists, and there is absolutely no indication whatsoever of a Catholic origin of Islam. You only need to be aware of some of the historical episodes of the clash between the two (e.g. The Crusades), the differences of fundamental beliefs (e.g. Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism), and various other historical realities (Islam was an Empire that had no need of Catholicism – in fact it was bent on invading Rome, and had done so on one occasion) to realise the implausibility of such a theory.

    (Please note that Conspiracy Theorising is distinct from actual conspiracies – it’s a difference of methodology. Verfiable-Impartial-Evidence-based Methodology can demonstrate if there is a conspiracy or not, depending on the truth. Conspiracy Theorising however pre-determines that a conspiracy is the ONLY conclusion that you must arrive at, or else you are in with the conspirators. It’s a difference of methods or process of deduction.)

    [Name redacted. The points made below fit more than one conspiracy promoter.]

    A word about [Name redacted] since many seem so keen on defending him. I would ask, have you actually checked his conspiracy sources? Have you verified any of the so-called facts that he presents for his conspiracies? Have you investigated any of the topics yourself? I did so on his Papal-Islam Conspiracy theory which is as I’ve said is based on nothing but sheer fantasy.

    The theory that the KJV is the only ‘truthful’ version is also just as farcical. The KJV is an archaic translation which itself is based for the most part on William Tyndale’s translation. And in issues of certain words like ‘synagogay’ and ‘ekklesia’ the Tyndale translation does a better job – the KJV translates ‘ekklesia’ into ‘church’ whilst Tyndale translates it correctly into ‘congregation.’ Veith advocates rejecting the earliest manuscripts we have in Greek and accept those that support his KJV-only position. You don’t just reject manuscripts because they don’t agree with you. You analyse, compare, and deduce but don’t throw out because you just don’t like it. That is entirely subjective. For some reason he thinks that a 1611 translation that lacks all the archaeological and cultural knowledge and manuscript evidence that we have come to accumulate today is far more superior than one that has.

    It also is misleading to say, as some have said, that [Name redacted] has led anyone to Jesus. Sure, anyone can lead people to a version of Jesus made in their own image, but that does not constitute leading to Jesus. Someone also mentioned that they found [Name redacted] to be a humble person. But I found him very proud of his position to be in the so-called ‘know,’ condescendingly commenting on others who didn’t, and labeling Christendom in irresponsible generalisations. I also find him to be dogmatic in his Conspiracy Theory assertions and unrelenting despite the lack of evidence for his conspiracy positions and even insurmountable evidence against one of them that I found. It seems to me that [Name redacted] knows he has a receptive audience among people who already agree, or who might not be as ‘in the know’ as he is, and so are more vulnerable to his teachings.

    CONCLUSION

    Conspiracy Theorising is an unhealthy and brainwashing practice that is unbecoming of Christians and does major damage to one’s frame of mind and character – fanaticism, judgmentalism and self-delusion are the fruits. It breaks straight-forward thought process principles laid out in the Bible, such as Verification, Impartiality and Evidence-based reasoning. It presents speculation as fact, and presents facts as lies. To me, this methodology sounds perfectly in line with Satan’s practice of deception. Therefore, it is my belief that Conspiracy Theorising is not only unhealthy, it’s not only damaging, it is a sin.

    Amen!(5)
  40. Many of my Christian friends spend a lot of time on conspiracy theories, - chem-trails, HARRP, secret societies, vaccines, etc. They often excitably share their compelling discoveries with the intention that others will also watch DVDs and join discussions. Many times I have explained that we already know how the world is going to end, and how the Lord gets us from here to there is not my concern.
    It is sad to see so many people drawn away from the wonderful news of Jesus love, wasting their time examining whatever happens to be the latest conspiracy.
    Please do not spend your precious time on conspiracy theories. Determine, like Paul, to speak only the good news of Jesus.

    Amen!(5)
  41. The challenge of critising those who are preaching the message with results. Inge, could be that there are somethings which you do not know regarding the theories presented by [name redacted] which probably you should study before you label them as false

    Amen!(1)
    • Results? What results? I have seen results of holding forth such theories and none of it was commendable.

      What is our commission? What is our message? Who are we to lift up before sinners? Jesus invites us; "learn of Me..." Why study the mysteries of sinners? Isaiah 55.

      Amen!(3)
  42. Back to the preface of the article.
    The Lord has given me a strong warning not to think like everyone else does. He said,

    ‘Don’t call everything a conspiracy, like they do, and don’t live in dread of what frightens them. Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life. He is the one you should fear. He is the one who should make you tremble.'” – Isaiah 8:11-13

    The Lord has given us through Isaiah a strong warning to refrain from spending time on conspiracy theories. The Lord wants us to focus on Jesus even if we have been Seventh-day-Adventist for 40 years or more. I do believe that by focusing on Jesus are heeding Gods word: “Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life.” That’s all I have to say. I need to get back to Faith in Jesus. James 1:1-2, James 1:19,20, Luke 12:16:21, Hebrews 11:1. Matthew 7:7 Essentially says ask, seek and knock on the door and ye shall have faith in Jesus.
    Have faith in God my friends. Have faith in God.

    Amen!(6)
  43. I never believed in conspiracy theories until I came in contact with conspiracy first-hand. Since then my perspective has changed. I am no longer asleep.

    SDAs have since the founding Millerite movement been classified as "sensationalists." That label has been earned, and is carried on with a fixation by some on primarily negative events.

    The fact is that there is a real battle going on, and it goes back to before God first gave the ten commandments to Moses. It was when Moses saw the character or "goodness" of God that he became radient from having been with God.

    As intelligent creatures, there is nothing wrong with an awareness that people still dance - metaphorically - around the golden calf. God even asked Moses to do something about it.

    There is also nothing wrong with showing people how to have salvation. Moses was willing to sacrifice himself for the people.

    But the original battle in heaven is the same battle today. The character of God is in question. Until our faces shine with the glory and love of God, we will continue to wander in the wilderness.

    I have an idea: let's make a plan to really know God and introduce Him to our friends. Then we can all go home.

    Amen!(1)
  44. P.T. Barnum well knew that many people like to be wowed. When I see the word, "amazing", in advertise for "evangelistic" meetings, I know it will attractive people who want to be amazed--want to hear something that is not widely known--want to think of themselves as having insider information. It is a way to feel superior.

    True evangelism is one beggar showing another beggar--or several--where to find crumbs that fall from the master's table. Beware of anyone who claims to have the whole loaf.

    The advent movement began in the United States at a time when almost all of its citizens were very much aware of the danger to religious liberty that was posed by the papacy. When J.F.K ran for the presidency, my wife's parents--who knew nothing about Seventh-day Adventists--were greatly concerned that his election would lead to a loss of religious liberty in the United States.

    In the nineteenth century, the language employed by some non-adventist preachers with respect to the papacy made the writings of Uriah Smith and Ellen White seem tame by comparison. It was a time when protestants tried to outdo each other in their condemnation of a system they considered inimical to freedom. Some protestants went too far. It was never appropriate to condemn adherents to that system.

    Now the pendulum has swung to the other extreme.

    The language employed by adventists in the nineteenth century IS appropriate for people who are radically protestant in the twenty-first century. But to look for a (Jesuit) "devil under every rock" is off-putting for the vast majority in the United States today.

    Are the Protestant teachings of the sixteenth century or the nineteenth century any less "true" today?

    I don't think so.

    The other side of that coin is that, today, those teachings need an appropriate context. To use the same language and methods in the twenty-first century as were employed by adventists in the nineteenth century is foolish indeed UNLESS OR UNTIL the protestant basis of that language and those methods is adequately understood.

    Failure to take those steps results in some people joining the Seventh-day Adventist denomination because they like thinking of themselves as "in the know" (which explains the ubiquitous we-are-it syndrome).

    At the same time, such language and methods (including appealing to conspiracy theorists) makes several enemies for the truth for each person who joins the denomination AND when the reason to change denominational affiliation is that other denominations are teaching things that are not true, the people who have changed their denominational affiliation for that reason are just as quick to change it again as soon as they realize that a Seventh-day Adventist clergyman has taught a conspiracy theory that was later discredited.

    Amen!(2)
  45. Wikipedia Encyclopedia: A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.

    Maybe someone can explain to me if the books of Daniel and the Revelation fit this definition. Thanks in advance.

    Amen!(1)
    • Daniel and the Revelation are not conspiracy theories, but are God revealing the events that would "shortly come to pass" through His foreknowledge. There is nothing in them that we must guess about. Without God's intervention, Satan could fool everyone, so God gives enough evidence to save us from the deceptions through faith in Him.

      Amen!(2)
    • The problem with conspiracy theories is that they are often complex (often transcontinental) and require you to believe that not only are many seemingly unrelated events related but that these conspiracies are perpetuated to exact precision--without hiccup--by different members of the same group or groups over decades if not hundreds or even thousands of years.

      Real human conspiracies are often limited in scope and effectiveness and probably more likely to fail than not. More importantly they are often limited in time.

      This is just the nature of human beings. They all have minds of their own. What motivates one may not motivate another. Two humans with the same goal may not have the same level of motivation. And if they do, they are likely to disagree with how to get there. Add that to the fact that the worst conspiracy theories suggest complete and exact agreement between vast numbers of shadowy unknown people--often separated by language and culture.
      And then, of course, people don't live forever. They also fall sick.

      This is vastly different to the Great Controversy; which involves non-human beings who have been around for literally God knows how long.
      And even that battle is made up of many smaller conspiracies--which do not always come to fruition.
      The least successful conspiracy of all was the one to prevent the Messiah from coming.

      Amen!(2)
  46. My question is, since you brought up the topic of conspiracy and Dr. Walter Veith, have you ever watched his videos in full? Have you ever listened to his sermons? He is not a conspiracy theorist. It was due to his love for God and the Church (in fact, he's the ONLY one I see these days referencing EGW) that I am even hanging on by a thread to this group of individuals called the SDAs. If you ever doubt what he is teaching, take it step-by-step. He gives you all of the references. I've done it to a lot of his videos. In fact, I already knew some of the ideologies he presents and was quite shocked someone else in this huge realm of confessed Christians actually knew it, too. Please, do not add him into the likes of LeHay and the others. That is not only an insult, but you are taking away the truth he was given and has had the courage to put out to others in this faith that fight to remain asleep.

    Amen!(5)
    • Hi Catherine,

      Some people say that I am old; they even call me a "grumpy old man" now, and they may be right, but don't want to admit it. However, one of the advantages and responsibilities of growing old in the church is that you see a lot of church leaders come and go along the way. I have heard HMS Richards sermons; I listened to George Vanderman in person; I have argued the point with Sam Bacchiocchi; I have watched Doug Bachelor; and I have played Walter Veith videos. All of these folk were great warriors for God and have contributed something to my life and understanding. All of them were human and capable of getting things wrong. (Yes I once told Sam Bacchiocchi that he was quite wrong on a point of research (not the Sabbath though :-)))

      I have learned that even great preachers are human and when it comes to faith matters, I ultimately have to put my faith in Jesus. All of these folk have been instrumental in leading folk to Christ. They have made a valuable contribution to our understanding of our faith but they can and do get things wrong at times, just like we ourselves do.

      We get ourselves into a dangerous position when we rely too heavily on popular leaders. Paul had the same problem when some of the folk in his pastoral care started saying they were for Paul while others were backing Apollos. Paul reminded them to rely on Christ and put their trust in Him. That was sound advice then and it remains true today.

      Amen!(7)
  47. I am blessed by Dr. Veith's sermons on the Genesis Conflict and I think it is the best series of sermons preached on Creation vs Evolution. After watching this series, I was overwhelmed by the impression of how great our God is. I will recommend this series to all people. There are so many atheists out there who need to know that they are of a noble origin from God instead of from a piece of substance.

    For the Total Onslaught series, I agreed with some of it, felt uncomfortable with some of it, and lack the capacity to comment on some of it. But in general, it just makes me more alert of the fact that Satan is the king of this world and he is working hard in everything he can. I am not afraid of the things mentioned in this series because I will not come into contact with those evil things Dr. Veith mentioned in my course of life as a normal average person. I believe most of us posting here would not either. As long as we follow the teachings of the Bible, have the protection of God, those secret dangerous things (conspiracies if you would call them) will not harm us. However, if you have not come across with those things, how can you say that he is making stories up just because you cannot verify them? There may be people out there who can make relevance to those sayings. Let those people who know what he was talking about verify the authenticity of those statements he made.

    We can use whatever tool or resource available to support the teachings of the Bible. Yes, the Bible in itself is perfect because it is from God and can support itself. It will do no harm to make illustrations from lively objects so the audience can see the Bible more relevant to them as long as it does not violate the Bible. I am quite liberal in this aspect that if you think someone says something that is right, go ahead and quote that person's words. If you think that person is off or has gone overboard, do not quote that person.

    We as Adventists are already few in this world, we need to be united on truth, that is the Word of God. Please show love to our fellow Adventists who preach Jesus' soon return. We do not hear people preach a piercing sermon that easily today. This Walter Veith might be weird in somebody's eyes but he surely is one of those who sincerely preaches for the return of Jesus. Ways and techniques may be various, some are moderate, some are edgy, but as long as the goal is kept sincere and simple, I believe God will guide us with His Spirit to discern. There is no need to fight each other fiercely verbally. Jesus told us to love each other so the world knows that we follows Him. What would the world think of us when they see us being so mean to each other? This is so embarrassing.

    Amen!(0)

Please note that this post is about conspiracy theories, not whether or not certain individuals are good or bad people. Please comment on the points made in the post. (Notice particularly the points in bold.)

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