09: The Pre-Advent Judgment: Discussion starters
1. Good news. Do you ever consider how the visions Daniel saw compared with the movies and videos and amazing cinematography of our day? How did Daniel describe what he saw so that others could understand the sequence of events that would bring ‘good news’ to succeeding generations? Imagine you were Daniel and this was your vision. How does the sequence of events in Daniel’s visions provide ‘good news’ for you? Who are the ‘people of the saints of the Highest One’, as seen in Daniel 7:27? Can you identify with this group? If so, why? or how?
2. The judgment was set. Are you old enough to remember the fear we used to feel when we thought about the investigative judgment? Did you believe that any time now your name might come up and when it did, if you had not been found perfect and free from every sin, it was curtains for you? How did it make you feel to believe that your destiny may have already been determined, and you’d never have another chance to turn things around? Or when you wondered why God had to do so much investigating—as if He didn’t know our hearts already? What is the good news of the pre-Advent judgment? Hint: It is really good news!
3. Before the judgment. Why are we wearing filthy garments when we stand before God at the judgment? Can we justify our condition? Can we respond to Satan’s accusations? What can we do to get out of those dirty clothes and into more respectable clothing? Is this image perhaps a picture of our condition before we repent of our sins and give our hearts wholly to God? Or are we sinful regardless as we stand in the judgment? In either case, is there a cure for our condition?
4. Timing. Does knowing that the “Lord knows those that are His” help in your determination to be on His side in the judgment? See John 10:27 How does this belief (knowing we are His) help us believe in the assurance of our salvation when thinking about the judgment? Considering the earthly kingdoms around us, are we looking forward to the time when their power will come to an end? How do you think the judgment will affect the fate of the nations of the earth? Since judgment usually takes place after an event or activity, what takes place before the judgment?
5. The Judgment Ends. What happens when the judgment ends? Your lesson guide gives four events beginning with the coronation of the Son of Man. Does this list bring up thoughts of a giant orchestra or choir sounding through the universe when the battle with sin finally ends? Or do you think about a reverent silence instead? God could have chosen a swifter and more direct way to eliminate sin. Instead, He shows Himself to be absolutely fair in every detail. How can we show Him our gratitude for His way of ruling?
6 Safe to Save. How does the powerful image of the Ancient of Days and the Son of man working together to control the fate of the nations give you assurance to face judgment with joy? Are you “safe to save”? If so, what has God done in your life to show the universe that you are indeed one of His? Your lesson guide states that “The judgment is not the time when God decides to accept or reject us; …it is the time when God finalizes our choice…revealed by our works.” Discuss.
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Assuming that you mean if I was Daniel living when he lived it wouldn’t be good news because Daniel was concerned about Jerusalem and the temple that once stood there. That is why the 2300 day prophesy bothered him so much. It seemed to put off the prophesy of Jeremiah 25.
If, however, if you mean what does it mean to me living in the twenty first century then I would have to say “a lot” because the judgment was made, “in favor of the saints” (Dan 7:22 NKJV).
[Moderators note: Please use your full name as it assists in maintaining integrity.]
What is the difference between the 1nvestigative judgement and pre-advent judgement?
Dav, perhaps all of us need to be a little more mindful of the definitions of the terms we so freely use concerning the judgment, at least I know that I need to be. To me there is a conceptual difference but for all intents and purposes they refer to basically the same thing.
The term "investigative judgment" looks at the process involved in judgment from a purpose point of view while the term "pre-advent judgment" is orientated more to the time of occurrence. The only difference that I can see is that the investigative judgment can include the judgment by the saints during the millennium which is also investigative in nature while the pre-advent judgment seems to be more restrictive in some ways.
From what I understand, the judgment that takes place before the Second Advent concerns the kingdom of God on earth. It is a judgment that is conducted for the benefit of the inhabitants of Heaven that settles their minds concerning our fitness for life in Heaven. We can think of it in this way: Suppose that a serial killer is paroled from prison and moves into your neighborhood. Automatically red flags go up in the minds of your neighbors and they wonder if they are really safe with that person as their next door neighbor.
As sinners, even though we have repented, we are never the less all serial killers in a very real sense and the inhabitants of Heaven are a bit nervous about the prospect of some of us being their next door neighbors. Because of that God gives them opportunity to "investigate" whether we are actually safe to be around.
When we get to Heaven we won't have that same problem to contend with because we already know that the intelligent beings that live there are safe to be with. However, there will be people that won't be there that we most certainly thought would be saved but actually are not. Because of that God will give us an opportunity to investigate the reasons why they are not there and maybe even to look into why some are there that we thought wouldn't be.
I realize that the Bible says that books will be opened and that God will judge our works from what is written in them but I have a huge problem with that way of looking at the judgment. I prefer to think of the investigative judgment as simply that; His creation investigating God's judgments. Besides, if God needs to look into the books of Heaven in order to judge then to me is He is far less of a God than the Bible says He is. According to scripture He knows everything being omniscient (Job 37:16; Ps 139:1-18; 147:5; 1 Jn 3:20) and knows all of that before He created anything (Isa 46:10) so why the necessity of books in order to judge? Another thing is that God is the only being in the universe that is able to judge the heart. The rest of us can only judge the result of what is in the heart which is the works that we do so we judge only from outward appearances while He judges the motives behind the works (1 Sam 16:7). So why is the judgment based on works if God is the only one judging?
Because of the difference in depth of judgment between God and His creatures we may sometimes question God's judgment. But, God is not like us and doesn't become annoyed over His sheep who cannot see as He sees (Isa 55: 8-9). So the great Almighty loving God of the universe allows His creatures to look into what He has judged and in so doing they actually judge His judgments. To me that is the largest part of the investigative judgment process both before and after the Second Advent whose outcome is that God has judged correctly; that His judgments are righteous and that people are where they ought to be.
In common usage the terms "investigative judgment" and "pre-Advent judgment" are interchangeable - just two terms for the same event.
(Investigative judgment is not generally used to refer to the investigation of the records of the lost during the millennium.)
It is true that Ellen White does say that "The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period" (Great Controversy, p 480.1). She says that because the wicked basically aren't judged before the Second Advent - they are assumed to be unsaveable but then what about those that are marginal where there could be a question concerning what side they are really on. Is there no judgment of any sort that separates the good from the bad before probation closes?
We say that profession is meaningless that what a person does is the thing that really matters that because of that we are judged by our works. Surely we can see that professed Christians do some really bad things and that those who make no such profession do some very good things. In fact we are told that there will be people in Heaven that never joined a church, never heard the name of Jesus, that never claimed to be religious but because they followed the leading of the Holy Spirit they will be saved. How and when will such people be judged worthy of salvation? Are the lines between saved and unsaved so distinct that there is no question at all about their status?
Besides, I suppose that I am entirely wrong in thinking the unthinkable; that maybe the judgment in Heaven has something to do with the great controversy, the settling of charges that Satan has made against God rather than being so much about us. Am I wrong in thinking that the question of why the wicked did what they did could possibly arise in their judgment? Or that maybe there might be a lingering question, a possibility of doubt, about God's involvement concerning them that needs to be settled before the controversy can fully end?
Are we really the center of the controversy rather than Christ where the settling of the whole thing rises or falls on what man does? Are we to be so arrogant that Job could say to us as he said to his friends, "No doubt you are the people, And wisdom will die with you!" (Job 12:2 NKJV)? Are we as a people so important that God can't do anything without us?
Therefore, can we in fact say that if a loved one does not make it into Heaven that will we have no questions at all about their judgment; whether they were rightly excluded from Heaven? If these things could be so then wouldn't all of that be considered an investigative judgment, at least of sorts?
I am not sure just why you think that it is unthinkable that the judgement in Heaven has something to do with the great controversy. The whole plan of salvation, the sacrifice, the mediation, the judgement (or judgements, depending on your viewpoint) and final execution are all part of the great controversy and its resolution.
There are essentially two elements to the judgmental part: (1) who should be saved, and (2) has God acted fairly through the whole process. Both are important to us. We sometimes make noises about the rest of the inhabited universe, but even if there was no one else, those two elements are significant to us.
I would add though that sometimes we drag out our perceptions of the process, making it appear that we spend long periods of time working through "books" to determine whether God got it right. I am not sure that heaven is going to be one long courtroom scene where we are questioning the wisdom of God. That sounds a pretty boring heavenly activity to me. I want to get into the heavenly swamps and photograph a few waterbirds!
I think Tyler Clutha offers a great perspective about the pre-advert judgment and judgment of the unfaithful but, we get hung up with who will make it and who won't, and won't we be surprised about who did make it and who didn't. Rather ought not we spend time on the here on now doing God's work and that is, focused on outreach to those right under our noses. In our communities there are many broken and lost souls from the lowest to the highest of our society. If we focused our time and efforts obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit to share the Great Good News of God's Gospel, then when Jesus comes again, whatever His plan about what judgment means for those who were faithful and those who were not, will be made plain? To project out further then our little finger in front of our eyes, is about as far into the future we can confidently know. Do Jesus work now, faithfully, and for sure your good works will follow and as God word tells, He will reward us accordingly. The resolution of the Great Controversy is God's plan, why and when He is ready. We just need to be A. be ready and B. tells others about getting ready. The Lord will do the rest because that is what He told us He will do. Now, let me ask you, what are you doing right now, today, to share your Faith and how are you doing this? Then come judgment time, our individual record will stand under the light of day for all to see, whether faithful or not, God's goodness and mercy, . God's rich blessings, ulalei
We have no complete good news to bring to the world if we will not study and learn the details of the judgments because it is part of the everlasting gospel in Rev. 14. Remember it is only us who believes this so its good to have a good understanding of this belief so that we can clearly transfer it to others.
You have a point brother Tyler but let us remember that after Christ comes out of the sanctuary, EVERY CASE HAS BEEN DECIDED including those of the wicked though we say they are not part of the investigative judgment.
The only part of the judgment that is not yet implemented is the rewarding and the punishing which will generally take place at the executive judgment.
I think the millennial judgment is something like inquiry, confirmation or clarification and not exactly investigation though all these terms are synonymous.
The Bible encourages us to get Wisdom and wisdom comes from our knowledge of the Word. Knowledge and understanding of the "Judgement Process and Events gives us wisdom. I think Ulalei Letele made a great observation of our commission to become ACTIVE in more "OUTREACH" and lead others to Christ and inform them of Salvation.
We want to study and be prepared to carry out the Great Commission of sharing Christ with others and be ready to represent Him wisely through His Word which is true and through the knowledge of The Great Controversy. I want my name to be found in the "Book" because I obeyed Him. I am truly blessed with knowledge through these discussions and this ministry. I am constantly studying to be knowledgeable of the Word of God so that I may go and share it with others.
Charlaine.