Does Romans 9 teach Predestination for some or Salvation for All?
Many take Romans 9 to say that God has chosen some people to be saved and others to be lost without any will or choice of their own. They call this predestination. So let’s take a deeper look at this chapter and see for ourselves. We will let the Bible explain itself.
With Christ as my witness, I speak with utter truthfulness. My conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm it. My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them. Romans 9:1-3 NLT
Wow! This is amazing. Paul would rather be eternally lost rather than see his community perish. This reminds me of Moses’ prayer in Exodus 32:32. It reminds me of Jesus being willing to die the second death in order to save the world. I have to ask myself if I love those I give Bible studies to this much? I can only imagine that such love must really change lives. By is Paul so concerned about his fellow Jews?
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people! Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,” though Abraham had other children, too. This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children. For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” Romans 9:4-12 NLT
Paul is concerned because not all of his fellow Jews have accepted Christ. Yet they think they are God’s special people just because they are Jews and Abraham is their father. In John 8:31-59 Jesus told the Pharisees that the real children of Abraham are the ones who believe in Him as the Messiah. There was nothing special about being a Jew or a descendant of Abraham apart from the promised Messiah. Paul shares a similar message with the Galatians in Galatians 4:21-31. In this passage Paul tells us that Hagar represents bondage to legalism and works while the child of promise, Isaac, represents those who believe in God’s promise and accept salvation by believing in the promised Messiah. The entire book of Romans assures us that while the promised Messiah came from Abraham’s Jewish blood line, salvation is offered to the entire world.
After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Romans 3:29-30 NLT
Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. Romans 5:18 NLT
It is important that we keep in mind that the entire book of Romans is clear that salvation is offered to everyone regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile. Romans 9 is not grappling with who is chosen to be saved, but rather who was chosen to be ancestors of the promised Messiah who would bring salvation to the entire world.
In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” Romans 9:13 NLT
This does not mean that God rejected Esau for salvation. It only means that God rejected Esau from having the birthright and being the ancestor of the promised Messiah. Jacob was preferred to be the ancestor of the promised Messiah. In the KJV it says, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated.” It is important for us to see how the KJV uses the word hate and even more important how Jesus uses the word hate.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 KJV
Of course Jesus did not mean we must hate our families the way we think of hate today. Love and hate show our preferences. To love means to put another first and to hate means to put another last. The NLT helps clarify this idea.
If you want to be my disciple, you must, by comparison, hate everyone else—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 NLT
So the NLT also helps clarify how the KJV is using the word hate when God says He loves Jacob but hated Esau. Eternal salvation is not the issue. God simple preferred Jacob to have the blessing of being the promised Messiah’s ancestor over Esau.
Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. Romans 9:14-24 NLT
Some take these words to mean that God chooses some people to be lost without any choice of their own, but this clearly is not idea of this passage. After all, none of us deserve salvation in the first place. God is not defending His right to not save people. We all have sinned and deserve death. In this passage God is only defending His right to be merciful. You may not believe what I am saying, but stay with me! In a moment the Bible is going to explain this passage itself.
Meanwhile let’s understand what God is talking about when he says the potter makes one jar for decoration and another for holding garbage. Again this is not talking about eternal salvation. It simply means, once again, that some were chosen to be a part of the promised Messiah’s bloodline while others were not. Paul also tells us that God uses some of us to glorify God by being honored and He uses some of us to glorify God through our suffering. For example, Elijah honored God by being taken into heaven in a chariot of fire. John the Baptist honored God by being beheaded in a lonely prison cell. Did God love Elijah more than John the Baptist? No way! Is Elijah the only one of the two who are eternally saved? Not at all! Both are saved, but one the Potter used as a jar for decoration, while the other was used as a garbage jar. Both have their part in the big picture of salvation. Both are dearly loved by God. Romans 9:14-24 is making the point that God honors some and dishonors others in order to save the entire world.
Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea, “Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before.” And, “Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God. And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, “Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality.” And Isaiah said the same thing in another place: “If the Lord of Heaven’s Armies had not spared a few of our children, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Gomorrah.” Romans 9:25-29 NLT
Instead of saying that God only wants Jews to be saved this passage is telling us God plans to save Gentiles as well as Jews. Romans 9 is not about God having the right to deny anyone salvation. It is about His right to save the entire world. Now so there will not be any confusion on this point Paul is about to sum it up. The Bible is about to explain itself as I promised.
What does all this mean? Romans 9:30 NLT
Okay here is our cue to pay close attention. To avoid all confusion about the meaning of Romans 9 Paul is getting ready to tell us exactly what it all means.
What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Romans 9:30-33 NLT
Does Paul tell us that everything we just read in Romans 9 is about predestination? No! It is about how we are all saved, Jews and Gentiles alike – not by our national heritage, works or legalism. We are all saved, Jews and Gentiles alike, by believing in the promised Messiah who came through Abraham’s ancestry. As God told Abraham, “All the families on earth will be blessed through you.” See Genesis 12:3. The Jews were not preferred above the Gentiles for salvation. The Jews were only preferred to be the ones who would give birth to the Messiah Who was promised to every nation.
I will shake all the nations, and the treasures of all the nations will be brought to this Temple. I will fill this place with glory, says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. Haggai 2:7 NLT
Let’s not make the same mistake many Jews made in the days of Jesus and the days of Paul. Let’s not trust our national or even our religious affiliations to save us. Let’s not trust our works or legalism to save us. Let’s put all our hope in our only hope- the Promised Messiah.
As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:11-13 NLT
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Thanks very much .Salvation through works of The Law, Predestination, Salvation through Grace are spiritual narratives that require daily teaching
I understand your point that Paul was pointing out the difference between Isaac and Ishmael, one being the son of the promise and the other DIY.
Although Abraham had other children, all the Jews were descendants of Isaac & Jacob (Israel) but not all of them were righteousness in God's sight, only those who believed and trusted Him to transform them by faith.
Thank you for so much good explanation! I'm afraid I must differ on a couple of points where I feel you may have oversimplified things a bit. Where the text says, "In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction," you cannot then assert that this has nothing to do with eternal salvation. "Destruction" means the person is not saved.
However, this doesn't mean that God isn't trying to save everyone. Indeed, the very language of being very patient suggests just the opposite -- that He will do everything possible in the effort to save even those who will be lost, just as Jesus washed the feet of His betrayer. Nevertheless, God knows who will ultimately refuse His grace, even before creating each individual, and in that sense is creating a "vessel of wrath," who will ultimately fulfill a purpose in God's great plan, just the same. Judas fulfilling prophecy is a case in point.
In the same vein, I don't think it would be fair to say that God's rejection of Esau as a potential ancestor of the Messiah had nothing to do with Esau's character. The main point, as I see it, is to let God be God, and never to boast as if we had in any way earned God's favour, either by our good works or by our wise choices.
Yes, and also when Paul raises the logical objection to his own argument. “What should we say then”? He anticipates the objection about the fact that we can not resist His will. “Why does He blame”?
There is no reason for this question if the topic is no salvation. The answer he gives, simply is, “do not go there” God is God. He makes vessels of the quality that He choses. It is non of your business. This can not be referring to anything other than salvation.
You are mostly making sense but saying "It's none of your business. It's in every way my business if God created me a sinner, blames me for doing what I can't help doing because I was designed to do so, and now wants to make me into his eternal punching bag. It most certainly pertains to my business if I have been fated to irreversible confinement to infinite suffering. I most certainly have a stake in whether or not I've been fooled into thinking God loves me when he doesn't.
Yes, Gordon, what you say is true hypothetically. However, seeing God has sworn that every knee shall bow, we can be sure that He is not to blame for anything, not to mention that infinite suffering is a lie, a slander on God's character. It's when we know that He does love us, and we can trust Him, that we can say that things too profound for us are none of our business. In other words, context is everything, and the cross of Christ is the context.
I know it is an uneasy subject for most: it is solid food for mature christians not milk! Romans 9 is about God sovereignty in salvation « for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Other verses that support this:
John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, 24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Elsewhere: John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
For me the idea of election or predestination gives me security and confidence that my salvation is entirely from God- not based on anything I do, or my religion or keeping the law as you emphasized,
it Is grace and mercy undeserved unmerited. That generates a grateful love that motivates me to surrender my will.
do I claim That I understand it perfectly or it is easy to digest ? I don’t. Paul understood our objections which is why he asked the rhetorical question in Romans 9: is there any unrighteousness in God? He then answered: of Course not!!! We are not more righteous than God...by saying it would be unfair not to choose everyone.
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in LOVE
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.
I trust that God knows what he is doing, and he is doing it out of love and kindness. God uses us his children to share his gospel to the world to make this happen: Romans 10:17 so then Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Thank you
Thank you Nozil, Your thoughts remind me of an article I wrote a while back. https://ssnet.org/blog/get-elected-god/
This quarter’s Sabbath School lessons, provide interesting discussions on predestination and election, making me examine what I believe. I became especially intrigued by the word “elect.” What does it mean, and how does one become elected?
God has not elected only a select group to be saved
I find nowhere in the Bible that God has a special select group composed of only those He wants to save, or that there is anyone He does not want saved.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 NKJV
As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ Ezekiel 33:11 NKJV
Ezekiel 33:11 is crucial, because we are going to see that the elect are those who turn from their wicked ways and live.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV
God has not elected anyone for destruction since it is not His will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:11 NKJV
While God may call some to “greater” roles than others, nowhere does the Bible teach that there is a group which God has decided He is not going to save. This is important, because I have visited with people who keep falling back into addictions and are tempted to give up, resigned that God does not want to save them. After much labor in trying to overcome, they are still heavy laden with the burden of guilt. Wait! Such people should not give up! These are the very ones Jesus calls! And He calls all of them!
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30 NKJV
God has not elected anyone for condemnation.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:16-17 KJV
Since Judas was one of the twelve, even he was “chosen.”
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 KJV
Many assume Jesus is referring to Judas as the one who had a devil, but Jesus and Scripture never say that. In Matthew 16, Jesus tells Peter “Get thee behind me Satan.” In Luke 22, Jesus tells Simon Peter He has prayed for his conversion. So, regardless who the “devil” was in John 6:70, he was not elected to be a devil, nor had to remain a devil. In John 6:70 Jesus has chosen all 12 while He understands there is still some work to be done. This should give us all hope.
So who are the elected? Paul describes the elected.
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Colossians 3:12-17 NKJV
Ellen White expresses the same thought:
Every soul is elected who will work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. He is elected who will put on the armor and fight the good fight of faith. He is elected who will watch unto prayer, who will search the Scriptures, and flee from temptation. He is elected who will have faith continually, and who will be obedient to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. The provisions of redemption are free to all; the results of redemption will be enjoyed by those who have complied with the conditions. –Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 208
Now let’s finally answer the question in our title. How do I get to be elected by God?
Peter explains in 2 Peter 1 that God elects those who have been working on the plan of addition. For every human being, Christ has paid the election price. No one need be lost.
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11 NKJV [Bold print supplied]
Those who are elected turn from their sins, remembering they have been forgiven and freed from sin. God wants everyone to be elected. God has not willed or elected anyone to be lost. Jesus has paid the price to justify, sanctify and turn us from our sins which have been forgiven, so we can choose to make our election certain.
Thank you for your reply, but this is a paradox that is very common in the Bible when it comes to understanding God justice and mercy, grace and works, human responsibility and God sovereignty. The mistake we often make is to take one stand and reject the other. I choose to embrace both.
You and I both know that not everyone will be saved; moreover all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, meaning the entire human race is lost and would have been forever without God electing to save the remnant
All the credit goes to God. Salvation is of the Lord from beginning to end. I praise his name for it.
Amen Kerby! We are all predestined to be saved unless we reject it.
"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.” John 12:32
I love these words from Steps to Christ.
"The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son." -Ellen White, Steps to Christ Page 27
Interestingly, I find myself largely agreeing with both Nozil and William, notwithstanding any unfortunate differences. How do I reconcile their main ideas? I cannot claim to be anywhere near fully understanding this rather challenging Bible chapter, but I do believe it would be fair to say this:
While we can never save ourselves by the exercise of our own free will, it is certainly within our capacity to destroy ourselves. In order to do so, thankfully, we shall have to stubbornly beat back the endless waves of love and mercy proceeding from our Saviour. Sadly, this is what Judas chose to do, until even God could do nothing more for him.
I find that there is a Bible predestination taught in Ephesians 1, Romans 8, and yes, Romans 9. However this is not any arbitrary decision on God's part. Rather, it is based on God's foreknowledge which (notably) does not take away either our free will, or ultimately its consequences.
The great thing, to my heart and mind, is that, if we will meet God's just and reasonable conditions, we are predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son." That is, even our fitness for heaven is guaranteed!
Well said Mr White
Thank you so much for posting this!! I’m really recently digging deep into scripture and i was totally lost reading this. Thank you so much for the clarification!
Predestination, Election, The Elect, The Chosen, Foreordained, Preordained, Chosen before the beginning of time, GOD’S own will, For GOD’S own purposes, etc… If speaking to or reading a 5 Point Calvinist (TULIP)/Reformed Baptist ie:Jonathan Edward’s, Spurgeon, MacArthur, Baucham, RC Spruel, even Luther, etal.. You’ll get a pretty definitive answer to this most avoided, feared, misunderstood Doctrine as seen through the lens of man’s ‘Total Depravity’. You’ll get a definitive answer to the question ‘Are ALL to be SAVED’? Their answer is NO simply by applying GOD’S PROVIDENCE, GOD’S OWN WILL, GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY TO satisfy HIS own Purposes. It is my belief Paul is clear in Romans 8-10 that ‘not all will be saved’ but that GOD will show mercy on those HE chooses not to save ‘since the beginning of time’ or ‘of the age’.
No doubt a tough Doctrine to swallow which is why Paul uses the metaphor of ‘milk’ & ‘solid food/meat’. Those that study & take deep dives into predestination/the elect can move onto solid food beyond those who choose either to dispel or simply not believe in these vital prevalent Doctrines who will continue to need milk.
I find ALL of the above which is why the last 5 years I’ve spent mostly in ROMANS. If you kept one Book of the entire Bible (Romans) & threw the other 65 books away you would still obtain enough Christological knowledge to be one of JESUS CHRIST’S OWN.
Thanks.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Please review some other posts that address the topic of free will and predestination. William wrote another post "Did God Predestinate Us to be Lost or Saved?". But you may find a couple of longer articles by Mike Manea even more helpful. Please see "How Adventism Ended the Gospel Wars." You may also find "Why the Investigative Judgment Doctrine Is Sound" helpful.